Archive for 2004

Author Message Barreto Member Post Number: 26 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 05:57 pm:        Dear Readers and dear American Citizen nicknamed Blue and all people of Planet Earth who come upon this Discussion Board by chance.}}} There are only two ways to learn how to live in peace and harmony among ourselves. One is THROUGH LOVE AND HARMONY and the other one is THROUGH PAIN AND BLOOD. Its seems that some human beings, the "big shots" - The Perfect Crowns of Creation (so they think!) of this Planet Earth, prefer to learn through PAIN and WARS and their wish is going to be fullfiled by themselves very soon because of their irrationality and thirsty for blood of innocent human beings. In my humble opinion in the latest Billy's messages about the evil of wars and the actual situation of world affairs he does not attack citizens/human beings from U.S.A or any other country. All Billy's worrying about and is calling attention of all the human beings on Planet Earth's surface, no matter its faith or color of skin, is to the danger of a World War III that with 100% of certainty will affect every single human being on the surface of this Planet Earth from North to South, from East to West, not matter if one is rich or poor, if one is a "christian", a jew, a muslin, a buddist, hinduist, indian, black, white, yellow, blue, red, green, no matter which country.. Everyone of us, every single one of us will suffer the consequences of such a terrible war be it a human being lover of peace or be it a warmonger: everyone will feel DEEP in their souls, in their flesh the evil of a Word Wide War unleashed by the irracionality of a few, a half dozen of people who think they are the Guardians of Planet Earth and the Crown of Creation and the Supreme Rulers of the Universe and of other human beings who live upon this planet. They are wrong, they are not lovers of Peace, of Harmony, of Wisdon, of Knowledge. They prefer to slave whole nations, to "stick their noses where they are not called", they "buy" people and whole nations with "green" money in order to spread war in order to have a "place" - so help them "God", which they trust, with the blessings of their "holy churches" no matter what denomination it has - just to test their ultimate high technology weapons, technology worth billions of "green dollars" fabricated to kill other human beings, whole populations and most of the time whole innocent families, children, women and men, money that could be used to build a clean and neat house to every single poor inhabitant of those poor and underdeveloped countries, money that could be used to drill well for clean and fresh water to drink where there is no water because it is polluted. Green money that could help build a better world for all of us to live in peace, money that could be used to plant several different fruitful trees, to buy crop (wheat, rice, barley, corn, etc.) seeds to feed the whole planet but they use it to manufacture weapons, bombers airplanes, deadly rockets, tanks, missiles, uraniun bullets, atom bombs, neutron bombs, and other stupid, monstruous and irrational and worhtless things like that. Such well developed countries, specially one in the American Continent who considers itself the Crown of the Universe and the most shining and bright Star of the Universe could be an example of peaceful governors if they could use their rich money to spread real health, food, plant fruitful trees all around the world instead of spreading hate, bullets and bombs over the heads of other human beings. They level themselves with other warmongers, terrorists thirsty for human blood and don't look at the tails of themselves for things they horrible did in the past. Truth is truth and this they cannot hide from a whole planet and that is what Billy's written about and nothing else. Some people don't know nothing about Billy's Mission upon this Planet Earth. They only know some pieces of information they pick here and there hear says and some of them are written by other people who do not know Billy's Mission too, distorted texts, falsified wordings and misunderstandings and things like that. People do not know the whole Billy's history, the whole context of everything and do not even try to learn more about this person called Billy Meier. They do not use reason, logical thinking and wisdom to understand and do not wish to understand. They do not consult their hearts, their spirits, they do not look around themselves to realize the disgrace and awfulness that this world this Planet Earth has become and is going to become just because of some men that think their are "God" themselves and want to reach peace by means of slaughtering other human beings and this thing continues eternally, repeating every single day for millenia. How many of you really read the whole book Talmud of Jmmanuel? How many of you ever sat down with reasonable thinking and ever tryed to compare the Talmud of Jmmanuel with other existent religious literature, line by line, wordings by wordings, passage by passage like I myself have being doing for almost three years or like a person named Dr. Jim Deardorff himself has done? How many of you realized that everything that is written in the Talmud of Jmmanuel have being already fullfilled and is being fullfilled nowadays? Every single word of Jmmanuel's (falsely known as Jesus Christ) prophecies has been fullfilled and it seems that they will continue to be fullfiled very soon! All I can see in this Discussion Board are people (but not all of them) wasting their time, wasting "electricity" and money using their computers to write foolish things (sorry for that!), inutile worryings about extraterrestrial matters like if Plejarans women are lesbians or not what does it matters for us what importance does it have for us Eartly human beings? And how about the long and unending discussions if Billy writings, photos and contacts are real or not. What for? There is a Planet where we live that surely will become a TRUE LIVING HELL if people waste their time imagining if Billy is a hoax or not. I myself have seen a lot of things that happened in the past years and all I can see for the future of this Human Population of Planet EARTH is that we Human Beings will soon very soon pay, maybe with our innocent lives for the ignorance and irrationality and greed for money, earthly goods, status, and greed for wars and for new deadly weapons created by other fellowmen who think they are the Guardians of the Universe. And BESIDES there is nothing the Plejarans can do to save our lives that must be saved by ourselves. All they can do is to tell Billy to warn all governants of Planet Earth to behave like real human beigns, to achieve PEACE AND HARMONY by means of Wisdom and Knowledge and that is what really matters for me. Just a reminder for those who've read Talmud of Jmannuel:} Two thousand years ago Jmmanuel wisely said: (See Talmud of Jmannuel - Chapter 25 - The Prophecy - Die Prophezeiung) (In both German and English Translation) TJ 25:9. Die Menschen werden hören von Kriegen und Kriegsgescherei, so sie sehen sollen und nicht erschrecken, denn das muss so geschehen; aber es ist noch das Ende. TJ 25:9. “People will hear about wars and treats of war, and they are to witness this but not be frightened because it must transpire; but it will not yet be the end. TJ 25:10. Denn es wird sich erheben gar manches Volk wider seine Obrigkeit und ein Volk sich wider das andere und ein Königreich sich wider das andere, und es werden sein teure Zeiten und Erdbeben und grosse Unwetter und Wasser hin und her. TJ 25:10. “For many a nation will rise up against its government, one nation against another and one kingdom against another, and there will be times of privation, earthquakes and immense storms and floods all about. TJ 25:11. Das alles ist dann der Anfang der Wehen. TJ 25:11.All of these events are just the beginnings of the woes. Moderator: Jose, I had to remove the greater portion of your excerpt from the Talmud of Jmmanuel. You can quote small pieces from articles or books, even those that are related to FIGU, but that's all. Also, just a suggestion: Consider writing several postings if you have a lot to say at once. For one thing, it's easier for people to digest and/or respond to smaller postings than one huge one. Otherwise, I think you make some good points, thanks again. I am not a lawyer trying to "defend" Mr. Billy Meier}. I am just a human being who realized by means of logical thinking, through reason that upon this Planet Earth there is no other man who writes or makes such truthful statements like Mr. Billy Meier does. I am sure he is the only one incarnated upon this Planet Earth who dares to say what he has to say: The Truth without fear. I do not have any hate for United States Citizens on the contrary I like them and I am not against its citizens because I have good friends - American Citizens - lovers of peace and harmony that live there and I like them very much. On the other hand I am against people who "loves" the taste of human blood, people who do not deserve to be called human beings no matter its nationality, race or faith, warmongers, irrational and blind leaders, and also persons who love to level themselves with bloodthirsty and fanatical terrorists. May Peace, Harmony, Wisdom and Knowledge prevail on Earth to every single human being, no matter which is its nationality, race or faith otherwise all of} us, without exception, the "Holy Pope" and all those warmongers terrorists and dictators included, will learn IN REALITY what is the meaning of the words BURN BABY BURN or FREEZE BABY FREEZE with our fleshs ourselves very very soon just because of some few madmen, crazy leaders and other dictators and warmongers who want to make A FALSE peace and FALSE harmony using deadly weapons of mass destruction leveling themselves with other madman and dictators and warmongers who love to slave their fellowmen using religion, money, gold and black oil to justify their acts. I am sorry to say that sometimes I myself wish that all these horrible things to really happen as soon as possible MAYBE the Human Beings of Planet Earth (at least the ones that would remain) would LEARN it once and for all and also NOT to REPEAT the experience in the future but then I think about all the innocent children - all around the world - playing joyfully in their school playgrounds, or backyards, with nothing to worry about just to have fun and love from their moms and dads and granpas and grandmas and to have happiness playing with their fellow children no matter their religion or skin color they play together. What a shame to be an adult human being living in such a crazy world. I wish I could be an innocent and happy child again - Innocent as a Lamb - and not to understand the madness this whole planet has become. Creation knows I am a peace lover and innocent as child that cries often for seeing our Planet Earth the way it is and the way it will become if those Jmmanuel's prophecies come true very soon. Saalome gam naan ben uurda, gan njjber asaala hesporoona! Peace be on Earth, and among all beings! NOT AFRAID TO BE IN PEACE AND TO WISH PEACE FOR OUR PLANET AND FOR ALL AND EVERYONE, B Jay Member Post Number: 186 Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 10:11 pm:        Welcome aboard Blue, Your point is well taken and I am also sure most FIGU members here must understand that the FIGU website or "AND YET THEY FLY website as well seem in the regular sense to follow the rule of FREE Enterprise. It must be also noted the making and production of this information must be paid since I am sure book makers will not work or give materials out for free. This is what I may keep in mind mostly even if I see this as a "BUY AND SELL" situation. Information given out to us here on FIGU may also be plagued by our problems of the world such as Free enterprise which to me should be given up as an old sollution to our well being. All leaders in any part of the world should be accountable for the sick greed which they carry in their hearts and I feel America and all those Middle Eastern and all European countries alike must be brought down for their ridiculous actions. The polls show that many a strong majority of Americans as other countries like that of France and others show no support for war, I believe all humans who feel our leaders as well as outside leaders are wrong and wasting time in the peace effort should be eliminated for the sake of the Human race and many other crimes which have been committed by the interests and greed of our leaders. I can only say that the Torch should be past on to the scientific societies who better understand the world and the need for free energy and other things which can erradicate hunger and disease. Also included in this group of new leaders we should all include leaders of high spiritual knowedge which can give great and neutral advice to all poeples of the world ( This does not included christians, ews, Muslims or any split sectors of all three). The blend of the Science and of spiritual teachings in leaders of such caliber may well help earth or at least will be a good try. The leaders we have now all over the world have a pattern of interest and business ventures which are engulfing the world. Michael_h New member Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 09:22 am:        I wish to address the concerned shared by Blue, perhaps soon by many people, regarding the often harsh articles and information by Billy Meier and the Plejarans available at www.andyetheyfly.com. My point of view is that the Plejarans have been equal opportunity offenders going back for almost three decades. People need to read the available Plejaran/Meier material in order to see what they've had to say about much of the rest of humanity, most of it is quite critical. They have described the negative and warlike machinations of many different countries and individuals, many times announcing events before they occurred. Neither the Plejarans nor Meier can be said to have any vested interests of a political, religious, economic, military or other nature in our world though Meier, as a citizen of this world, is certainly entitled to his opinions on any of these matters. The irony is that Meier, hailing from Switzerland, the land of neutrality, may actually be getting a hard time also from his own country for publishing those opinions. As for us, we Americans are notoriously lacking in self-reflection and appropriate self-criticism, we seem to often prefer flag waving, screaming and attacking rather than determining if unpleasant things widely expressed about us are indeed true. If true, we should be about the business of correcting them. This isn't the way the painfully immature, and potentially enormously self destructive, "we're number one!" mentality operates but it's time to grow up and get away from our entertainment centers for a while if we're interested in long term survival. Substituting the endless watching of sports and reality shows for reality itself is proving to be a poor choice, in my opinion. So, if what Meier and company are saying is true...then we're in for a hell of a bad time as a country and one largely of our own (or our government's) making, which is exactly what many Americans don't want to hear anything about. Too bad. I'd rather know the bad news and fix things, as I said before. There seems to be some kind of subconscious belief, of epidemic proportions, that being Americans makes us always right, better than others and immune from the laws of cause and effect which we recklessly disregard. Perhaps people in other countries also hold those points of view though there seems far less evidence that it is either as virulent or widespread a contagion as it is here. The Meier material is also quite clear that other states/peoples such as Iraq, Israel and Palestine, and their leaders, are also culpable and present an enormous danger to world peace. It's simply their point of view that our government poses the largest, most ominous threat. And, while the writer to whom this was originally addressed doesn't like the criticism of American policies and actions by Meier and the Plejarans, he also complains about how/why the world appears to hate America, something which only substantiates what Meier has been saying. The same complaints against America voiced by people in other countries is also being voiced by many Americans seeking to correct policies which contribute to such hate towards us. Unfortunately, to make sure we're hated even more, it now looks like we'll launch the first of many unprovoked wars of aggression unless we, the people, prevent it. It should be obvious that blatant aggression, leading to only more retaliation and terrorism, will not make it safer for us at home. Neither the Plejarans nor Meier are politicians or diplomats, meaning they're not trying to influence people with sweet talk and lies to get their hands on your wallet or seek any other type of advantage over us, as I've stated before. They are clear and frequent proponents of telling the truth as a rational form of self interest since lying only postpones, and often badly compounds, the consequences that must inevitably be faced. It should also be said, though it may surprise some people that not everybody associated with Steelmark or even with the Meier material for that matter, necessarily holds all of the same views expressed by Meier or the Plejarans. And, of course, it doesn't take an extraterrestrial or a Swiss man to hold these, or opposing, views. My position in representing the material in the case is, however, that with the impeccable, irrefutable accuracy and credibility of the material provided to, and then by, Meier for almost 30 years, perhaps the help that people often wish would be given to us "from above" is right under our noses after all. The fact that we don't "like" what we're being told should be irrelevant to evaluating its accuracy and implementing its suggestions if we find them to be in our true self interests, such as survival at the very least. The writer also happens to be incorrect when he claims that the website is laden with sales oriented material. Most of what he points to are FREE downloads, the books and poster are expensive items and nobody's forced to buy them, especially since there's so much FREE stuff. It should be mentioned that Steelmark (of which I am not a part) is a publisher and, as such, is in the business of making money, hence the selling of books, posters, etc. It is hoped that vigorous debate and exchange of opinions, with the focus on core, spiritually based, life-supporting principles will lead us to right thinking and right action. So, I am grateful to the writer for putting forth the challenges that initiated this response. Michael Horn Especialsov New member Post Number: 3 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2003 - 04:05 pm:        Greetings to All: In reading all the above opinions by Gurujay, Michael and Barretto all of you have good and excellent valid points. The way to live our lives and make the changes necessary to achieve everlasting peace and love is to implement the spiritual teachings that Mr. Meir has handed to us thru his contacts from our friends in the cosmos and lead by example is of utmost importance in doing this. Furthermore we must maintain an everlasting vigilance of what we do in this lifetime. Our collective thoughts and actions will bring about change in our world. Also we must keep striving to change our ways towards others as well as ourselves to achieve harmony and peace that we all seek in this mad world that we have created or handed to us from our past. I sincerely believe that the Age of Aquarius is just begining to start fully to manifest itself in our world. I have seen a lot change in our lifetime and thru my own research and experiences the past five to six years. I have no doubt that what Jmmanuel has said in his writings that our civilization is starting to open their eyes and thoughts to different things that is happening in this world. I hope that our wake up call will not be too late. Give peace a chance Barreto Member Post Number: 29 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 07:07 pm:        Greetings TruthSeekers and Peace Lovers. Jmmanuel's Prophecies to be fulfilled very soon?? I hope not! The Current Crisis in Iraq Most of the health, water, sanitation and power systems infrastructure in Iraq was destroyed, during the last Gulf war, remain unrestored. Food supplies depend almost entirely on rationing, which ... (Text/article shortened by the Moderator, according to the new security regulations of the FIGU Forum). ... complete breakdown of society in impacted areas. The same would apply if biological weapons, such as anthrax, were used. I wonder who is going to save this Planet? But I know that this person is not a well known president who thinks he is the Crown of Creation and other warmongers who howl with the bad wolf as Billy says. And there are many wolves out there - {in the Bushes} therefore be carefull.}} José Barreto Silva Edward Member Post Number: 240 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 02:07 am:        Hi Berreto... Yes, I would agree with you. Let us Hope the Prophecy does Not come into manifestation. But as I See it all..there may be chance that Saddam Hussein may be killed. If this does come to pass...he will be the Frist of the High Government Head(s) which will be killed in the line of 4 ... as is mentioned in the Prophecy...I would think. Surely "The Coup" executed by a world president (Mr.Bush) has come to pass...as we can all Acknowledge! Concerning Mr.Bush as being The Crown of Creation; Well, I have doen some reading in the past, and from Mr.Reagan to Mr.Bush Senior..and I would not be surprised...Mr.Bush Junior; were at many times Advised by some so-called "Psychics"..which made the above mentioned be beings Sent By God...to Save the Whole World from Evil. And just last night...on tv...there was a political-analyst.. which stated the same as I had just mentioned! And that this fact....makes the situation Much More Grimmer...then ever. So, this reminds me of what Billy has mentioned concerning the So-Called Pyschics and the Liars...who say they have contacts with the Plejarans....and The Beyond..and/or others. As by Those Liars of Deceit and Disception...They will only make the situations and the Law of Cause and Effect..."increasingly" Worse...to the Utmost...in the/it's Processing. With Greatful Thanks...To Them...The Prophecy of Henoch... May/Will...come to pass. As the Natural...Cause and Effect Process...has been Altered...to our Disadvantage....alas. Peace Be With All... Edward. Erwebb New member Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Monday, April 07, 2003 - 05:31 pm:        NOT ALL AMERICANS SUPPORT THE IRAQ WAR Billy mentions that the USA wants the war with Iraq, and that all americans support Bush. Lets clarify, that not ALL americans support and agree with President Bush. I am an American who did not vote for Bush, never wanted Bush, and I don't want this War with Iraq! I would rather have Peace in the World. The president ignored many people in the country who protested and demanded a peaceful solution. He did not listen to the people! If you hear most americans want the war, you have heard propoganda from the controlled media (who are pro bush). I have to be careful protesting the war and demanding Peace. Beacuse I protest that I want Peace, I am labelled Unpatriotic, UnAmerican, and in league with evil terrorists. The propoganda mininsters in America will say that I am against America, and don't support the troops because I want Peace. I can't win, no matter what I say. If I support the war and the troops, the peace people scream "babykillers". If I support Peace, then the war supporters yell at me, and claim I support Saddam Hussein and dictatorships. I can't voice my opinion in the land of the free without harsh criticism. I guess I have to shut up or else I will be in trouble or possibly arrested. The moment the president overrided congress was the day America ceased to be a free nation! WE the people of America were NEVER ASKED if we wanted this war. It was assumed that we wanted the war. I thought the world towers were toppled by Osama Bin Laden. Why are we going after Saddam, when Osama is the one responsible for the towers?? What does Saddam have to do with the world trade towers? Nothing. I guess the war really has to do with Oil. Oh, yeah, I just remembered...President Bush and his Dad are oil men!!! They profit from oil! Hmmmm. I wonder... Signed Confused American, watching his country slowly becoming a government dictatorship...... Scott Moderator Post Number: 336 Registered: 07-2000 Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 11:08 am:        Hello Erwebb, Where did you read "and that all Americans support Bush"? I know Billy has posted numerous articles in regards to this subject, but I wasn't sure which article you quoted this from. Thanks Salome Scott Especialsov Member Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 07:03 pm:        Greetings Dear Colleagues: To add more input on this subject I believe that our style of government should be eradicated and start a new way of implementing a new system where there should be no interest in money,power,religious beliefs or material goods to be had. We have to implement a government (if any)where the common goal is to help our crazy and diabolical ways change for the better of mankind. The only way is to implement the Spiritual Teachings of Jmmanuel and of what Creational Laws that are there for us to learn and implement. Furthermore we humans must evolve out of our wicked ways. Debunk all religions that do not support the true Laws of Creation. Establish the teachings of the Plejaran contacts that have been handed down to Mr. Meier and disseminate the information. I know that this is a very complicated process since the falsehoods have been ingrained in the human brain from birth that is impossible to overcome overnite, but by reaching out to others maybe it may start something going around the world. It can snowball to where people will start to realize that they have been lied to all along. Same thing applies to governmental bodies that really have not done much to alleviate suffering on our planet as is being professed by our so called leaders. People the time has come to do something about this overall problem facing our world and to do this sacrifices will have to be made in order to achieve the intended goal of saving whats left of our planet and our race. I wish that everyone heed the message that our world cannot continue in this way. We have not much time and all can contribute something to this cause. One way is to start voting these leaches out of office and starting a peaceful resolution to the cause. Secondly we must abolish religions since these sects and cults are the cause of much suffering in our planet as foretold by Jmmanuel over 2000 years ago. I can understand one is afraid to this by themselves but when there are very large numbers of people doing it at once the ones in power will relinquish power to the massess. Third we must as passive members of this FIGU forum and believers of what Mr. Meier has put forth must act on these issues on our daily lives, in other to start change. Examples of the ones that have given their lives for this are Martin Luther King, Malcom X, Mahatma Ghandi and others including Mr. Meier(19 assassination attempts)to break the chains of bondage that we have been put into in one way or another. WE THE PEOPLE must enmass start questioning all the crap out there and put it to the test so as to reveal the truth to all things. Read everything if possible and look for the lies that are hidden in writings, teachings and everything that one comes across in this lies Wisdom. I hope that these short words can have a positive effect on someone out there and can get a good dialogue going. Be well dear friends and may wisdom and positive vibrations filter out to everyone. Give peace a chance Prometheus New member Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 03:29 am:        I agree hole heartedly. The civilizations man has witnessed in recorded history have not evolved in the least. All civilizations from the beggining were based on the centralization of wealth and power. The act of taking from the weak and giving to the strong. This system runs under the energy of its own inertia. This system is not natural as the creator distributes energy to all life forms equaly. This is why all civilizations become empires and colapse under the internal wieght of universal decadence. Balance is the key to life. The darkness has been with us all along and it feeds of the negative energy of induviduals. The ability for induviduals to change thier envirioments positely is increasing. The net is a majior tool. Love and positiviy are infectious. So is unity. If we can abandon the illusions of devision and inslavement we may have a hope for survival. What we are going through is a test. Man must become united before we can take our place with other sentiant beings. If we chose the negative pole we may cancel out ourselves and all life on this planet. Michael_d Member Post Number: 44 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 09:16 am:        Here is a question I have wanted to ask Billy: "If George W. Bush is not re-elected in the upcoming presidential election, is the likelihood of the outbreak of WWIII in 2006 reduced, and if so, by how much?" As you may have seen announced today on NBC's "Meet the Press", Ralph Nader has decided to run again for president, this time as an independent candidate. Although he is right to challenge the two-party duopoly, will his doing so insure Bush's re-election? Edward Member Post Number: 379 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 01:47 am:        Hi Michael_d.... I would think that would be a very good question to ask Billy. My Own opinion would be that Surely...if Mr.Bush is Not re-elected.. World War Three would Indeed be Reduced in its Actions. And as Billy has mentioned...that "Reason" Is the ONLY Way. Thus, I would not close out...that there is still Possibilities to Reason with Leaderships that have Animosity towards America, the Western World...and its Allies. I would still think that leaderships that have Animosity towards the mentioned above...DO NOT...want a World War on Greater Scale! This Deed of Action is being Put and Forced Upon them...by, in this case...as many know...BY THE BUSH OIL ADMINISTRATION! I would think that the Leaderships would Truly want to Reason with any other president...other than Mr.Bush and his Cohorts. Thus, there IS....Always a Chance for Peace...for All Humanity. So, it is Now the Duty for All Americans to give the Righteous Votes to the Right Person(Not meaning 'Right'...as in being Conservative, But 'Right' as being The Correct person). Thus we must make Clear to all people that Mr.Bush must NOT...be re-elected for Office. Thus, we have still till November...to work hard on getting The Truth out there to The People.. and to elect the Right Creditable presidential candidate. My Best Of Luck To The American People. The(OUR) Future...Is...in Your Hands. Concerning Ralph Nader: He best Not Spoil the cooking! Edward. Hunter New member Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 09:46 pm:        I would first like to echo the words of Erwebb and say that many Americans, I among them, did not support the war on Iraq. For different perspectives(than that of the mainstream media) on the war and on the actions of the American government in general please see: http://www.antiwar.com http://www.lewrockwell.com http://www.strike-the-root.com/ Another interesting, anti-war, perspective can be found at: http://www.chaostan.com I would respectfully disagree with those who would claim that John Kerry would more likely pursue a less hostile political agenda. I say that NEITHER George Bush or John Kerry is an acceptable candidate. Does anyone remember Bill Clinton launching missiles to deflect attention away from his sex "scandals"? Innocent people died because of his actions. So, no, I do not see the Democratic Party as an positive alternative to the Republican Party, which is also unacceptable. I joined the Libertarian Party recently, which by the way, is the only party in America I know of that asks members to abide by a pledge of nonviolence--their pledge specifically states: "I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals." Their foreign policy is one of neutrality and non-intervention. For other Americans who might be interested in learning more about them, their website is: http://www.lp.org I will vote for the Libertarian candidate in the upcoming election. I do not believe in voting for the lesser of two evils(Democrat over Republican or vice versa). Why? Because the lesser of two evils is still EVIL. I believe John Kerry is just as arrogant as Bush and will continue America's role as "policeman of the world"--and this policy of domination, of pseudo-empire, of "America must be in control/be at the forefront of world politics" is the core problem. He is definitely not to be trusted in my opinion. Namaste, Hunter Norm Member Post Number: 645 Registered: 02-2000 Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 06:17 pm:        I can't join the LP. They advocate Open Borders, and that's something I'm against, at this point in time. Especially with the worlds current Overpopulation problem. I voted for Nader last time & Perot twice before that. Sorry to say this time I have no choice but to vote on any Democrat that's there. Hunter New member Post Number: 4 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2004 - 09:12 pm:        Norm, I applaud you on your previous votes for third party candidates. That's definitely a step in the right direction, in my opinion. But I would disagree with you that one issue is enough to ignore all the other issues that a party stands for--I think that's a huge oversight. And I would further disagree with you that an open borders policy encourages or in some way promotes overpopulation in and of itself. Perhaps you can clarify your position and provide me with some evidence that supports your conclusion. I'm curious as to why you believe this. I'm sad to hear you're going to vote for the Democrats. To me, it would be more sensible for you to vote for Nader again. I don't agree with all of Nader's positions, but I do believe he's more honest and well meaning than either Bush or Kerry. And what about foreign policy, Norm? Do you believe that America should have over 180 military bases around the world and should be the world's police man and interfere in the affairs of other countries? Do you not believe that this will contribute to the causes that lead up to a potential WWIII? Norm Member Post Number: 646 Registered: 02-2000 Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 10:01 am:        Hunter, There are other things I don't agree with the LP that I didn't list. Like they don't want any form of welfare and I disagree on that also. I'm an isolationist, like the Founding Fathers of this country! There is tons of evidence about Immigrations link to Overpopulation. Billy Meier has written much on this, search the forum & Figu website. "Its just obvious that you can't have open immigration and a welfare state." – Noble award-winning economist, Milton Friedman "The leadership are fooling themselves. Overpopulation is a very serious problem, and overimmigration is a big part of it. We must address both. We can't ignore either." – David Brower,The late Sierra Club hero who was nominated three times for the Nobel Peace Prize. Outside Magazine, July 1998 Hunter Member Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 10:52 pm:        Norm, Thanks for the reply. You're correct that the LP doesn't support government based welfare programs. However, as was the case in early America when no welfare programs existed, charity programs in the private sector assisted people when there was a need. I think there is a lack of understanding in the world when it comes to taxation and government programs. Taxation is another form of violence. It is not voluntary. If you do not comply you can be arrested and imprisoned. If you resist arrest and defend yourself, you can be killed. Thus, taxation in its current form, as latent or potential violence, will invariable create undesired effects because it violates creational laws. America functioned quite well without an income tax for approximately 150 years. Massive poverty did not exist during this time and living conditions in early America were as good or better than anywhere else in the world. This is not to say things were perfect--perfection isn't obtainable for us at this point--but people who needed help received it from private charities or religious organizations. I do believe that immigration should be limited. I think it contributes to cultural stability for one thing. And I also believe as you do that nations should be neutral and should not interfere in each other's affairs (isolationism). I suppose I do need to research the overpopulation issue more. But, I still don't see how open immigration in and of itself can cause people to have more sex. This of course is the only way that people can reproduce and thereby increase the population. I just don't understand why immigrating to another area makes one more likely to have sex that results in child birth. I may be wrong, but it just doesn't seem logical. Namaste, Hunter Especialsov Member Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 07:10 pm:        True as Hunter has said the power to tax is the power to destroy. This is evident in our existence and we still commit these same mistakes in different forms of civilizations and governments that mankind can never improved. (maybe in the future)But if the way of taxation and outright plundering by all politicians entrusted with the public trust then blood will flow on this issue also. Be well and prosper. Give peace a chance Peter_brodowski Member Post Number: 10 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 08:54 pm:        especialsov, a while ago you presented the question to billy pertaining to contact 251 and hollywood producers, billy told you of a movie in the works in canada. i have just completed a film script i have been working on for the last year and a half to 2 years... and i am talking with a known filmmaker about it. i have absolutly NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER, that i am this person billy was reffering to. 251 is so intertwined within my script that once it gets into the theaters, and it will... people who know anything about the contacts and creation will immediatly spot the signs... so, if it intersts you, i will answer any questions you may have. damn this post sounds cockyhahaha h haha haa but seriously, i'm for real with this post. thanks Jay Member Post Number: 278 Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 08:46 am:        Hi Peter, The scripts you put together, was it actually done way before you knew of the 251st contact or did you use the ideas from the contact notes themselves? The reason I asked this is because the Plejarens made it known that thought Impulses were going to be part of an ungoing technique used to develop our ideas and also help us along our evollution. Please give us more details of your statements as to why this is to be true about your movie script. Tell us at what point in your script writting did you create the story on your own and why you feel it is exactly the same or similar as CONTACT NOTE 251st. Thanks Saalome and BE WELL to ALL Peter_brodowski Member Post Number: 12 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 11:47 am:        Hows about you give me an e mail adress i can contact you at as to not take up needed space within this forum but to answer your question briefly... i started the script, ideas/bainstorming before i heard of billy and the contact notes. before i integrated knowledge from the contact notes, there was already the presence of (un-suprisingly)the number 7. in short the story was about a priest who turned into a ritual serial killer. the concepts, speeches and events that transpire all revolve heavily around cult/religeon and it's negativity. after i read the contact notes i started to throw in dialogue about life and creation etc. let's leave the rest for e mail thanks p.s. if the plejarans send impulses through dreams, look at the dream interpetation section and read my dream, it's one that i have not forgot and think about often. Especialsov Member Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 12:06 pm:        Hi Peter. Thanks for the answer but you did not elaborate further on my question of how and if the film industry is actually using the contact notes or any info that Mr. Meier has handed down to us about the issue. When will the movie be made that will have some of the info on contact 251 or of any of the other ones that may make it to a script. It seems to me that the movie by Spielberg and Kubrick project was made into a motion picture that has a lot of the similarities if not a resemblance to the 251 first contact. This film ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE BEARS SOME THRUTH of the contacts in a way that spooks me since is so very accurate at certain key parts of the movie. Thanks and answer as soon as you can I will be looking for your response. Give peace a chance Peter_brodowski Member Post Number: 13 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 07:59 pm:        alright let me put it to you like this... i aint a part of any film industry so i dont know if anybody else is making a movie that pertains to things within contact 251. what i do know is what i wrote in my script. if you are asking me wether or not my script outright states things like "the dern and the dal universe, and the original number of human races created by creation, giza intelegence etc. then the answer is YES. There are plejaran words in the dialouge and many little things that make a movie original. so i dont know if thats quite the answer your lokkin; for, but that's what i'm understanding from your post. hope that answeers it. Jay Member Post Number: 279 Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 04:28 pm:        Hi Peter, Interesting brainstorming about your script. The Plejarens never did made mention the exact people in which impulses were given within a span of 30 yrs or more. You can find my email in my profile if you wish to send a long story. Is really better if you share this information with all here at the FIGU Board. Saalome and BE WELL to ALL Peter_brodowski Member Post Number: 14 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 10:24 pm:        I dont think it's necessary for me to type out a long post, but i will give you (what is in my opinion)the facts that make my case. 1. At the time that billy answered Especialsov's question pertaining to the hollywood producer thing, I was starting to write my script from the ideas i got, i was and still am living in canada. A lot of these ideas came at random times. I would get an image, mostly religeous or violence oriented. After i got a couple dozen ideas and images written down from my head, i started to web together all the images and ideas, and soon i had a plot that revolved around religeous conspiracy and manipulation. then i found out about billy and i started to read the available documents. By this time i had sent the script for copyright but soon it was returned because i forgot to fill out a form. At second glance my script seemed short, so i added dialogue and scenes, only to findmyself cramming every characters speech with all kinds of content that revolved around the teachings. there are also many things that i just cant say. it's those little things. let me try to give you an example. I've been stubborn as hell all my life, my name means Rock, or stone in roman or greek (cant remember), when i was born my grandfather said i would be hard as a stone. in my teenage life i was active in organized crime and basically followed a life of anti-creation. My parents could not sway me, nor could the law. Billy's teachings turned me around in about half ayear or so. I guess the best way to put all this is that even though all this b.s. was going on in my life, i had this "gift" to fall back on.the gift of creativity. I started writing when i started doing LSD in high school. I wrote messed up letters to nobody in perticular all throughout high school. After i turned my back on ganglife, i was left with the realization that i am a hell of a writer. Everybody told me how talented i am etc. also there are as i mentioned "those little things" that i just can t explain. one of those is the number 7. It's always popping up. I play cards, i grab the deck and tell my self without a doubt the card that i will draw is 7... and 7 is the card drawn. I drive passed a street sign and i get the urge to add the numbers of the street sign and find they add up to 7. In my script there is a woman named Harmony. Her name has 7 letters. ther's more but it's hard for me to put it into words. If i could paint you a picture maybe you would understand like i see it. thanks Jay Member Post Number: 280 Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 09:30 am:        Thanks Peter, This is a good story and I wish you the best in this story writting, Glad to know Billy and The Plejarens made a strong influence and change in your life. Is good know that there are other human beings out there who are willing to fix the dark drama behind the earth's chaos. Now you can breathe easier in your life. Saalome and BE WELL to ALL Peter_brodowski Member Post Number: 16 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 10:48 am:        well wether you enjoy it as a story or a possibility is not my say, so enjoy it anyway you can. I'm an example that there's hope for everyone. Billy and the plejarans, their like sun and wind , showing me the way and pushing me foreward. Hunter Member Post Number: 6 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 03:53 pm:        Great article on the war with Iraq--highly recommended reading: http://www.strike-the-root.com/3/rob/rob1.html Hunter Member Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 10:32 am:        Another good article on the spread of Islam--seems to prelude the prophetic warnings about the fall of France due to some forces "from within" and the fall of Europe: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9409067%255E663,00.html Jay Member Post Number: 299 Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 11:28 pm:        Hunter, In a nutshell, Capitalism is more like a revised version of the same powers of past times. Democracy and Socialism and all the "isms" are all part of a system which is interchangeable (again I phrase "maybe MASONIC"??). Capitalism has become matured and now it has brought out its ugly cousin called Imperialism. Anymore isms in the virus pool and we will sure turn this planet upside down or shall we say like Mars perhaps. None of these systems work and with the new technologies which give mankind a better understanding of themselves has not been used to replace ALL these old systems of "isms". We really need to get off the social structures which we carried in our pockets for so many centuries and unite the world as a whole human existence for ALL to prosper. Most importantly, a spiritually balanced and technological existence must be part of our growth, we must be highly developed spiritually to grasp logic for better sollutions. Let us take the example of the Plejarens, they do not own or even buy, they simply did away with these ideas simply because maturity in technology and spirit has provided a way. In our planet the first things we use to build again out of the rubble is to open out a little bag of "isms" and pick one.... ANY ONE and they are all the same flavor. No ISMS have worked on our planet and surely Capitalism and its ugly cousin Imperialism have offered us on a plate "WWIII" with alot of help from other members of the same scheme called RELIGIONS. Scott, please post these over to the Politics section of the board. It seems we are deviating from the health issue, my apologies. Saalome and BE WELL to ALL Hunter Member Post Number: 19 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 11:42 am:        Jay, In the broad sense, we're definitely in agreement--about all the "isms". I would add that until we've matured enough spiritually and technically to VOLUNTARILY do away with buying and selling as the Plejarens have, I do think freedom in the marketplace--a society free from excessive government coercion--is still the best way to cope with our present situation. Trying to suppress the population's buying and selling tendencies through force by today's "leaders"(i.e. Communism) has only led to reduced standards of living and resource shortages. Namaste, Hunter Jay Member Post Number: 300 Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 03:39 pm:        Hunter, Yes I agree totally with the situation of trade systems which lead to unbalanced life on Earth. I do now understand well the logic behind the Plelarens and the working of their society, it may not be much from what we gather so far through the contact notes but is enough to say a lot. The resources in any system wether Communistic or Capitalist leads to the same things. Just take a look at America, you still have ALL and I mean ALL the problems (not including the elite "Hollywood", or the Donald Trumps) from Gangs to Poverty, homelessnes, drugs. Is from good luck that we have not totally fallen apart yet as a country as of 2004, we shall see what the outcome is by 2012. In all, we are in agreement, Science in the spirit and in technology will do away with the problems I would say 88%. Since we are manipulated to the highest extent, it would serve us more to become REALLy highly evolved in the spiritual sense firstly to go on with a much better reality for ourselves. Once this is accomplished, corrections to the science of technology hopefully will follow. Saalome and BE WELL to ALL Hunter Member Post Number: 21 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 04:58 pm:        To Peter Brodowski, Pete I'd be interested in reading your screenplay and giving you an honest critique if you don't mind. I was an English lit major and took a few screenwriting classes in college. I might be able to offer some constructive criticism that would help you improve it. I know what it's like to have to rewrite a script over and over--I rewrote one of mine 9 times. I've never had one produced, but I've collaborated with a couple of friends and ghost written for them. We sold a couple of TV pilot shorts but they're still unproduced as yet. As far as obtaining contact with producers or anything like that, I've been out of the loop for quite some time--not that I was ever really "in the game" to begin with. Don't know if I could be of much help there, but again, I might be able to give you some a few tips. Just let me know. Hunter Peter_brodowski Member Post Number: 41 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 06:59 pm:        hunter, "too little too late" is the saying. If only you would have contacted me sooner. as it stands now, i'm waiting for the creator of signs (M. knight shaylaman) to read it. i was told it may be a while before i get any word on it, but yeah; it's definetly rolling. If you like though, i can send you my script through e mail or something like that and you can read it through and give me your opinions and feedback if you like. thanks for offering a helping hand, i'll remember that. Hunter Member Post Number: 23 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 10:40 am:        Peter, That's great news! I didn't know that you were in that position. Anytime you can get an established director to look at your stuff...well, I don't have to tell you this... That's definitely a good sign. But, yeah, if you don't mind, send me a copy at putnam1049@charter.net and I'll give you an honest critique. I'm a better editor than a writer so maybe I could give you some ideas for improvement. I know it always helps to have another perspective. Best Regards Hunter Hunter Member Post Number: 24 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 10:57 am:        Interesting site on war tax protestors: http://www.nwtrcc.org/ Hunter Member Post Number: 27 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 02:47 pm:        Jay, Funny I ran across this today. I should have brought this up in our previous debate. This is a great article on a major economic cause of war/imperialism: http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/baker/baker1.html It's a must read. Another good article about the nature of war: http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/johnson/johnson3.html Namaste, Hunter Scott Moderator Post Number: 511 Registered: 07-2000 Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 09:01 pm:        Hello, I don't know how it is in other countries, but the price of gasoline in the U.S. has increased almost weekly since the beginning of this year. The news broadcasts continue to maintain the story line that Opec has reduced its supply by 4% and the consumption of fuel is on the increase. I do not buy this, I believe somehow the escalating costs are tied to the increasing costs of the US's military occupation in Iraq. It is now projected the current level of occupation in Iraq is to be maintained through 2005. At the same time the news stations are maintaining we may see the highest prices in fuel in the coming summer months. I believe the oil companies along with the U.S. Government are directly responsible for increasing fuel costs. The Bush administration is spending billions of dollars irresponsibly on this military endeavor, which in the long run may only bring us closer to a World War, while the corrupt leadership of the U.S. continues to bloody its hands at the expense of world peace. Thanks for listening Scott Hunter Member Post Number: 30 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 04:56 pm:        Scott, I'm not sure about any conspiracies to increase the price of oil, but I do believe one of the underlying reasons for the Iraq war was to secure the payment for oil in US dollars. Iraq was planning to require that its oil be purchased in Euros. And Washington was afraid that other Arab nations might follow its lead and shift to using Euros as well. Why is this significant? With our fiat currency system, the popularity of the dollar overseas is critical to maintaining the US's financial superiority. With nothing of value to back the currency (gold or silver), it must be popular(desired) to have value. If no one wants it, its value will plummit and this will reduce Washington's influence and power in the world. See the article I posted above on fractional reserve banking. A good book to understand the entire process is "Whatever happened to Penny Candy?" by Richard Maybury. It's interesting to note that these "games" can only be played with paper money, and I believe the Plejarens said we are the only society they have encountered that uses paper money. The founding fathers of America understood these "games" well which is why they outlawed all forms of money except gold and silver coin. Unfortunately, their work was undone by their modern day successors. Namaste, Hunter Scott Moderator Post Number: 516 Registered: 07-2000 Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 08:48 pm:        Hello Hunter, Thanks for the clarification, you may indeed be right. I think more then anything I was just venting a bit of steam...After thinking about things more, the real tragedy is what is happening to the civilians of Iraq. It always seems when these type of situations develop the lines between humane behavior and outright unjustified bloodshed are always blurred. What is so distressing, is the real trouble makers sit many thousands of miles away protected from any harm. Thanks for the book recommendation... Salome Scott Jay Member Post Number: 307 Registered: 01-2002 Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 08:49 pm:        Hi Hunter, I agree with you an all points made, I do think one of the biggest obstacles also to keep this in the wraps is to rid of Saddam as well so that the implementation of the so called Democracy will be in favor of the U.S. instead of the arab countries. All points have strong values to them although the monetary value is still a burden on society and the peace for the planet as a whole. There is no freedom with the system of money and trade, the have and the have nots is not freedom. Money is a strain on development in the physical sense and it will eventually affect our future survival. Saalome and BE WELL to ALL Prometheus Member Post Number: 9 Registered: 08-2003 Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 10:20 am:        I find it curious that one should place the ills of the world apon a abstract concept. This would suggest one occupies a fictional reality. The fiat money was created as ritual occult magik by our occult masters. Fiat Currency is a representation of the collective energy of man. Money seems to be Magik because it is. The dollar is given its power by the writen word of the Government. The Government itself is also a abstract represtentation of the collective consiousness of man. This to was created through the craft of ritual occult magik by our occult masters. In americas case this was the illuminated ranks of freemasons who drafted the declaration of independance and constitution of the USA. We the people should read we the illuminated degrees of freemasonary. Of the people by the people for the people should read We the freemasons for the freemasons for the purposes of enslaving the masses. Knowledg is power. Power is a tool. And the truth would set you free. Fictional realities are not condusive to a free people. Jukdo Member Post Number: 9 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 11:27 am:        Hello Prometheus, I have mixed feelings on the freemasons , There ritual for membership of the 1st degree mason, A re-inactment of the death of Harim Abiff is a bit odd to say the least.But there cree for the invokement of free thought and Ideas without the prejudice of religion and government is quite appealing. Though our founding fathers here in America were freemasons. I'm sure they would turn in there graves if they saw what their beloved country has become. A good book to read is The "harims Key" Todd- Hunter Member Post Number: 50 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 03:45 pm:        Prometheus, When you say "I find it curious that one should place the ills of the world apon a abstract concept. This would suggest one occupies a fictional reality." I think you're misunderstanding the argument--either that or I am misunderstanding your words. I am not saying that fiat currency is the cause of all the ills of the world. It is a symptom of our problems here on Earth: People utilizing cunning and deception against their fellow man because this has become our nature due to the genetic manipulations to enhance our aggressiveness. This and People placing greed and materialism above spiritual values. Fiat currency does not allow for fair play or to simply "keep score". Fiat currency transfers wealth in a hidden manner and is used to fund government operations, primarily wars, when they fear the populace might resist a tax increase. Can't sell the general public on a tax increase? Then just print money--sure it causes inflation and makes the money that people have saved worth less, hurting them financially, but who cares, when our leaders need to make war... Want to see another application of how fiat currency is used in banking fraud? See http://www.bankhonesty.com The unfairness of a fiat currency system is not a fiction. It's a reality for anyone willing to objectively look at the facts. And it should be outlawed. Namaste, Hunter Jukdo Member Post Number: 15 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 10:36 pm:        Has anybody heard this before? This is a portion from an article written by columnist Chris Floyd,He writes for the Moscow Times. It was most apt that the only question Bush was heard to ask during his Auschwitz tour actually dealt with Holocaust revisionism: "Do people challenge the accuracy of what you present?" he asked his guide, the New York Times reports. This might seem a rather bizarre question at first glance--but then, Bush has a personal stake in the cultivation of historical amnesia. His own family fortune was built in part by a long and profitable collusion with the Nazis--an ugly story oft told here, and raked up again by Newsweek Poland during the presidential visit. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, and Prescott's father-in-law, George Herbert Walker, helped finance the rise of the Nazi Party through their intimate entanglements with Nazi industrial, shipping and banking interests. This long (and well-documented) collaboration continued even after America was at war with Nazi Germany. It seems the blood money was just too good to pass up--even if it had to be dug out of the corpses of young American soldiers and innocent civilians throughout Europe and North Africa. The Walker-Bush cabal's Nazi partners also helped finance--then profited from--the Auschwitz camp. Finally, in 1942, the U.S. government seized the Walker-Bush Nazi assets under the Trading With the Enemy Act. But the well-connected clan managed to bury the news in the back pages: brief mentions of the companies involved, but no names of the Establishment grandees behind them. They also pulled strings to keep their American assets from being seized as well, even though the profits from these enterprises were inextricably mixed with their Nazi loot. Prescott later cashed in these tainted assets for millions, a nest egg that helped launch him into the Senate and his son and grandson into the White House. So perhaps George Walker Bush felt uneasy treading on the bone-ash that lies beneath the soft, green grass of Auschwitz. Or perhaps not. For quietly buried in the back pages last week was news that the Walker-Bush tradition of war profiteering carries on. A small brief in the Financial Times revealed that Bush-connected "reconstruction" firms Halliburton and Bechtel, now in control of Iraq's oil fields, want to raise massive bank loans using future oil profits as collateral. In other words, these Establishment grandees will pocket billions in free money that will have to be paid back later by the Iraqi people, if and when their oil fields are returned. Both companies made millions with Saddam during the dictator's murderous heyday: Bechtel helped build Saddam's mustard-gas plants, while Halliburton, under Cheney, pocketed $73 million working with Saddam's UN-sanctioned regime after the first Gulf War. Meanwhile, Halliburton--which still pays Cheney a tidy annual sum--was handed yet another no-bid Iraq contract last week: $400 million in government grease this time. That's the way of the war profiteers, these men of "honor and integrity" who build their family fortunes, their corporate treasuries and their political dynasties on bone-ash. The grass they tread is always soft. Todd- "The more I learn the more I understand that I know nothing," Hunter Member Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 12:13 pm:        Todd, I have seen information on this before, that GW Bush's grandfather did have dealings with the Nazi's. Haven't researched it on my own, but it wouldn't surprise me. To profit from war is truly sick, but in their minds (with the Iraq situation) they believe they are doing the right thing by waging war so distributing the profits from rebuilding among their friends is viewed as perfectly acceptable. Namaste, Hunter Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 20 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 08:52 pm:        HI Judko, Hunter: Yes i also read this information already on antiwar sites. Another very important detail that the reporter did not mention is that Prescott Bush, G.W.H Bush and G.W. Bush are all members of the Skulls and Bones society (secret society). Prescott Bush is said to have stolen the skull of Geronimo (the indian) and brought it to the S&B "lodge" if i may say to carry their degenerated rites. This gives an idea how mentally disturbed these people may be (Billy arrived to a similar conclusion on the young Bush, solely from his observations and those of his Plejaran friends b.t.w) The similarities drawn on how these establishment "pigs" benefited from WWII and Iraq war are very disturbing and frankly disgusting. John Kerry is said to also be a Skulls and Bones by the way. Question: I just wonder if the Gizeh inteligence had influenced the Skulls&Bones society as they did influence the Thule society before and during WWII. Or this is purely our degenerated barbaric/agression gene being very dominant among these people Peace Eric Edward Member Post Number: 392 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 03:39 am:        Hi Jukdo... Very Well...Expressed! Yes, I have done much reading on what you posted in the past. It seemed that not only the Bushes were in valved, but Also Rich and Wealthy Jewish Families! And it seemed...that the Jewish Families were the Ones who did Not want to Boycott Hitler at the time...Because...They then...could Not Make "Profit"...any more! So, those Rich and Wealthy Jewish Families earned Blood Money with their actions...are/would be just as "Responsible" for their Fellow Jew's Holocaust! Thus, there were Christian as well..as Jews..participating in Generating World War II and its Consequences!! And Financing Saddam Hussein is also a based Fact. It is They..that made Saddam Hussein..Become What He Became...in his last times of power. They put him under a great amount of Pressure...which in turn...make him act in the most Radical ways....just as they Planned it to be. So They could show the world how Cruel he was. But the Ones With OPEN EYES....Can SEE...Who the Real Cruel Ones are! The Ones...Taking...by Way Of "Occupation" another country's OIL!! And wanting to play POLICE...All over the Globe. Which will lead Humanity...to More Bloodshed and Countless Deaths. Alas. This...All....makes its way...into Our Future..Alas. Truly, The Bushes(and Co) are of The Skull and Bones Order and are "Pirating" their way..into the Future! And Pirates...Have To BE STOPPED!! Before they take all the riches form its Rightful...Owners!! And as Our Mother Earth...being One of the Greatest...Owners! Edward. Hunter Member Post Number: 53 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 03:14 pm:        Everyone in America needs to read this: http://www.chaostan.com/bulletin-070104.html Hunter Member Post Number: 54 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 03:25 pm:        Here is another interesting article about Bush's family. It's seems they also have strong ties to communist China: U.S. Government Places New Restrictions on Cuban Families - "Under the new controls, Cuban Americans will only be allowed to visit immediate relatives on the island every three years, instead of annually, and will be permitted to stay only two weeks. Exiles going to Cuba will be restricted to spending $50 daily, instead of the previous limit of $167." The US government has a strange double-standard when it comes to communist China and communist Cuba. I wonder what the difference is? Here's what the difference is: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002/02/19/usat-prescott-bush.htm Jukdo Member Post Number: 20 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 11:07 pm:        Pax Americana and The Project for a New American Century, or PNAC The Project for the New American Century(PNAC) seeks to establish what they call 'Pax Americana' across the globe. Essentially, their goal is to transform America, the sole remaining superpower, into a planetary empire by force of arms. A report released by PNAC in September of 2000 entitled 'Rebuilding America's Defenses' codifies this plan, which requires a massive increase in defense spending and the fighting of several major theater wars in order to establish American dominance. The first has been achieved in Bush's new budget plan, which calls for the exact dollar amount to be spent on defense that was requested by PNAC in 2000. Arrangements are underway for the fighting of the wars. http://www.impeach-bush-now.org/Articles/Bush/realgoal.htm http://www.impeach-bush-now.org/Articles/Cheney/aeibloodmoney.htm Todd- "The more I learn the more I understand that I know nothing," Hunter Member Post Number: 55 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 10:14 pm:        While Bush certainly cannot be supported in the upcoming election, we also need to keep in mind that John Kerry will not offer much of an improvement. I hope everyone in the U.S. will find a third party candidate to support--whether it's the Libertarian Party, the Natural Law Party, the Green Party, Constitution Party--just vote for anybody other than one of the major two party candidates. Donate money and donate your time as a volunteer for these other parties also. If we want a true change in foreign policy and a neutral America, we need people with new ideas in positions of power and that means we have to increase the influence of third parties. The Democrats and Republicans are not going to offer significant change--they simply want to continue their stranglehold on power--and they know they have a 50/50 chance of winning in every election. For more info on a particular third party see the links below: http://www.lp.org/ http://www.natural-law.org/ http://www.greenparty.org/ http://www.reformparty.org/cgi-bin/hcgmain.cgi http://www.constitutionparty.com/ Scott Moderator Post Number: 532 Registered: 07-2000 Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:56 pm:        Hello, Has anyone seen the movie Fahrenheit 9/11 by Michael Moore? Scott Brenda_winkler New member Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 11:49 am:        Hi, Scott, I did. It was interesting. It was very passionate and good timing too for the release and did have a lot of information that the average public wouldn't know about. The one major omission was the connection between Israel and the US's involvement. He focused on Saudi Arabia in that respect and didn't go into the details with Israel's control of the US. Salome, Bren Markc Member Post Number: 165 Registered: 06-2000 Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 01:58 am:        I saw it, Scott, and if there was any hope to come from America ( besides ASTF and any B.E.A.M. related materials in English ),it would be that movie , and other expositions like it . We have been duped by our government , and half of the country still doesn't get it , like obedient little pawns ready to be thrown away . You can't put the genie back in the bottle Salome , Mark Mark Campbell Scott Moderator Post Number: 533 Registered: 07-2000 Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 09:23 am:        Hi Brenda,Marc, Thanks, Yes I saw it also, and it definitely was revealing. Michael Moore has stated he will pay anyone $10,000 to disprove any information he presented in the film. I hope this movie continues to fan the flames of discontent that many people are feeling today regarding the politics of this Government...as someone said "this movie is about the weak leading the strong" Salome Scott Hunter Member Post Number: 60 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 01:39 pm:        Scott, I haven't seen the movie yet, but I've read several articles about it and have spoken with several people who've seen it. While it's good that this information is being dessiminated to the public, my problem with Moore is that he's a hypocrit when it comes to exposing governmental abuse of power. For example, he remained silent during Clinton's war on Serbia and his "wag the dog" missile attacks after the Lewinsky scandal broke. We also heard nothing from him concerning Clinton's connections to CIA drug running through the Mena airport. (see: http://www.ncoic.com/clinton.htm ) Brenda also makes an excellent point that Moore failed to mention the prominent role of Isreal in the entire matter. And Isreal is the true catalyst--not Saudi Arabia. Moore is a zealous liberal and a supporter of the Democratic party who only questions those who politically oppose him. John Kerry has not given a single speech in regards to changing American foreign policy. If he wins, he said he plans to keep troops in Iraq to "maintain the peace". Again, his positions will differ only slightly from Bush's. So, in my opinion, Moore missed an opportunity to strike a blow at the entire system and expose the corruption of both major parties. The effect of the film will be slightly positive--in that it will make people question the government in general--but as long as people remain within the 2 party system--no meaningful change is likely to occur. Namaste, Hunter Hunter Member Post Number: 64 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 10:54 am:        This is a must read: Bush Using Drugs to Control Depression, Erratic Behavior http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4921.shtml Hunter Member Post Number: 69 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 02:49 pm:        Watched Fahrenheit 9/11 last night. I thought it was well done, but not complete, and that issue has been raised by others here of course. I would definitely recommend it, if for nothing more than to view some unfavorable images of the war, which the media will not show. I thought the most telling scene was when Moore and the marine who refused to return to Iraq tried to recruit several Congressmen's children to enlist and go to Iraq. Priceless! Some of those guys couldn't get away from Moore fast enough. And people need to see that--to see just how these elitists view the rest of the population--as if they are chess pieces in some larger game. The biggest problem I had with the movie was the emphasis on the Democrats being an alternative that would bring peace. Give me a break--who started WW1, WW2, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War? Kerry has said he would have gone to war in Iraq also, see: http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/381249|top|08-09-2004::17:46|reuters.html People are coming forward and saying Kerry has also been disingenuous about his Vietnam War record, see: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20040809.shtml http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39889 That Kerry was against the war is a good thing(some of his detractors obviously are not of the same opinion)--but he is apparently lying about several events that occurred during his time in Vietnam. Hunter Member Post Number: 70 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 11:42 am:        Very good article about the 2004 Presidential election: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39939 Danielk New member Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 09:15 pm:        Hunter, I don't understand the commment that WWI and WWII were started by Democrats. True they were in office at the time but Germany started WWI and with Japan in WWII. I don't know the history of Korean War but I the French handed over Vietnam to the USA. That being said Kerry is not the "no war" monger most democrats desire just a better choice than Bush in their minds. Personally I find it ironic that the no war peace movement is backing a man who is running on his war record in Vietnam. Hunter Member Post Number: 71 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:58 pm:        Daniel, I understand why you might feel that way, considering that most history books view WW1 and WW2 as the story(s) of America relunctantly being dragged into both conflicts to save the day, but this is far from the truth. The revisionists have done a good job of ignoring facts and spreading fiction. WW1 was really at the point of stalemate before America entered the fray. There were massive troop desertions on both sides, resources had been drained, and the will to fight was waning. Had the US not entered the war, most likely there would have been a truce in less than a year and all sides would have walked away. But, Wilson had been manuevering to get the US involved all along, because that was his worldview--that America would be the great empire and stand at the forefront of the League of Nations. He was an authoritarian and saw intervention as a right--even though in all the major polls over 80% of Americans were against entering WW1 and wanted the US to remain neutral (how's that for our leaders representing the people?). Also, keep in mind that many Americans viewed the Germans favorably, not as enemies, but Wilson's administration paid over 6,000 public speakers to tour the country, inciting Americans to war and villifying the German people as warmongerers. Now, once America's strength was added to Britain's, the Germans were easily defeated and of course "to the victors belong the spoils". And with the Treaty of Versailles, did they ever take the spoils. I don't know if you've ever read the Treaty of Versailles, but I would recommend that everyone take a look at a great example of how not to end a war. There were people at the time who said, hey, this is going to start another war, but no one listened. The problem was that they were taking so much from the Germans--it amounted to an 80% tax of their natural resources. How would you feel if someone suddenly started taking 80% of your income? Would you have trouble "making ends meet"? If you read Hitler's writings, he was enraged by the Treaty of Versailles, and I can definitely understand why the German people were upset. It's kind of hard to recover from a major war when you're hamstrung by what amounted to an 80% tax. I am in no way implying this excuses what the Nazis did later, I'm only saying that I can understand that violence would follow pursuant to the laws of cause and effect. Now, if you believe that FDR did not lie and deceive the American public in order to draw them into the war(the vast majority of the American public also wanted to remain neutral during WW2), please read "Day Of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor" by Robert Stinnett. I would also recommend that you read Richard Maybury's books "World War 1, The Rest of the Story" and "World War 2, The Rest of the Story". You'll get quite an education from them--an education based on facts and logic, not beliefs and propaganda. Could the choice of the main two candidates for President get any worse this year? Kerry and Bush are both frauds, neither respects (or probably even understands) the limits of the Constitution, and they both will continue with Imperialistic policies overseas. Needless to say, I won't be voting for either of them. Namaste, Hunter Danielk Member Post Number: 5 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 06:32 am:        Hunter, Well I guess we are gonna have to disagree on most of these issues. While you make some valid points your underlieing theme is that America is to blame and I feel and know that's not true. Is a America perfect? - no but compared to the rest and I have traveled quite a bit its the best. Despite its imperfections its changeable and correctable which is the main reason for America's success. We can get into the details of your comments but it seems you are letting the Germans of lightly. The world is better off that the Germans lost both WWI and WWII. But while you give the Germans excuse for being upset with the Treaty of Versailles (shortsighted indeed) and the laws of cause and effect then it stands to reason that a country such as USA get involved and end the atrocities and agression of Germany - cause and effect right? If FDR felt it was in the best interest to "lie" to the American public because as a world leader he knew Hitler was a threat then he did the right thing. Hitler would not have been defeated without the USA and that would have made the world a treacherous place. Remember back then there was no internet and 100 cable channels with news all over the place. People were just raising families and going to work what did not care what was happening in Europe. Let me ask you would the world be better off if Hitler had victory over Europe? What then? Finally, Bush and Kerry are not great candidates I agree - they are the result of a not so perfect two party system. However, I disagree that America is at fault for the all of he worlds problems, lets face it most countries are far worse and create their own cause and effect. Should America stay out of the worlds issues? Hard to say, seems the rest of the world screws things up pretty good on their own. Peace. Dan Hunter Member Post Number: 72 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 02:48 pm:        Daniel, I'm not trying to imply that America is to blame for everything. I love my country--in that I love the principles of freedom that it was founded on--but the country and the government are two separate things--and I cannot agree with the policies of this government. Our government has turned a country that started as a Constitutional Republic into an Empire of Plutocrats. The leaders of most countries seem to continually maneuver to provoke wars and apparently enjoy playing with the lives of human beings as if they are chess pieces. So I'm certainly not saying that America is alone in this regard, I'm just saying that the majority of people do not desire war, yet our leaders ignore the wishes of the people. You seem to believe that intervention is necessary to maintain stability. My response would be: look at Switzerland. Are they not an incredibly stable country? The Swiss are right smack dab in the middle of Europe, yet they remained neutral throughout WW1 and WW2 and were not attacked (minus a few accidental bombings) and did not participate in attacks on any other countries. And why aren't Osama Bin Laden and the terrorists attacking Switzerland? After all, Switzerland is one of the richest countries in the world... I'll tell you why, because the Swiss don't interfere in the business of others. They don't sell weapons to other countries, they don't build hundreds of military bases all over the world and deny they're an empire, and they don't quarter troops in other countries. They stay to themselves and they don't provoke anyone. As an example, is it more logical to assume that a person who isn't bothering anyone and minding his or her own business is less likely to become involved in a violent confrontation than someone who sticks his nose into other people's business and threatens people and starts fights with other people to keep them from starting fights later? The universal laws that govern individuals also govern large groups of individuals. My answer to your question "would the world be better off if Hitler had victory over Europe?" is Hitler would have never been in power if America had remained neutral during World War 1 because the circumstances that led to World War 2 would have never existed. Hitler would have never felt the desire to become a dictator and restore Germany to prominence because Germany's economy would not have been devastated by the Treaty of Versailles and subsequent hyperinflation. Cause and effect... Also, if you feel so strongly about interventionism, are you already a member of or are you planning to join the military? If not, why do you feel that others should risk their lives to pursue your beliefs? Namaste, Hunter Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 28 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 08:09 pm:        Hello: Just to continue Hunter argumentation: In addition to the fact that when someone meddles in everyone else business, it attracts problems, When that someone is much more stronger, or has more more resources than all the others, some weaker people may feel justified to use "under the belt" or unfair/coward tactics against them. Cause and effect I have noticed this behavior in individuals (look at kids in a school yard), it applies to large group of individuals called "countries" or organizations. One must understand that all actions have a cause, he can`t deny responsibility what is happening to him because he thinks he is "simply the best" or "less worse that all the others" or "they hate us" (dixit Paul Wolfowitz) Think about it, logically please Peace Eric Danielk Member Post Number: 6 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 11:06 pm:        Hunter, Personally I don't like guns, don't have one think they should be outlawed. Don't want anything to do with the military its just not me. That being said they do exist and those that would be our enemies have them are we to ignore this? We are not the only country that makes weapons so if we were to stop producing or selling weapons I am sure the Chinese, Russians, French and Germans wouldn't stop. That being said your question on why should others risk their lives to pursue my beliefs? I've heard this arguement, Michael Moore I believe. Its a valid question but one you need to ask those individuals who chose to be in the military. However, I don't believe we should just sit back and be target practice for people you can't negotiate with either. I will not argue that America hasn't done things that I don't like very much - in fact we would agree on most things along those lines but I am not gonna sit back and say America is at fault for Adolph Hitler and we shouldn't have entered WWI. I am not going to disagree with you that leaders manipulate things but where do you hold the perpetraitors of heinous acts responsible. You keep coming back that Hitler was justified due to the Treaty of Versailles. Again you are blaming America for Hitler - where do the German people, Europe and Adolph Hitler get to take responsibility for their own actions. Geez the Germans aren't responsible due to the unfair Treaty of Versailles which those bad bad Americans and English put in place (sarcasm). Seems to me there are alot of rationalization for atrocities that Europe has committed but not for the those that helped rectify it. As far as Switzerland is concerned how neutral were they exactly in WWII? They had to be sued to payback all the Jewish victims holdings that the Nazi's stole. Doesn't sound too neutral to me? Is that neutral to you? or were they too afraid of the Nazi's and played along with them? Yes the world would be better off if your idyllic world existed but it doesn't. If The USA just sat back and we do more often than not what would happen? There are atrocities all over the world, genocides and no one does anything - is that OK with you? Hunter what should be done? No use of weapons against those that have them? I suppose you are advocating a Jmmanual approach to self-defense which is none. Yes I agree with you monies should be spent on feeding others and improving living conditions everywhere. Yes the hearts of men are in the wrong place all too often no disagreement. But what do you do if your enemy is unavailable for rational negotiation? Please I hear so often how terrible America is but what about these terrorists? Are their actions justified by some "Treaty of Versailles" excuse as well? Gene Roddenberry struggled with these issues throughout Star Trek and there was no good answer, what is yours Hunter? Dan Michael_d Member Post Number: 78 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 01:38 pm:        Dan, Perhaps the secret to the dilemma is to find the true reason why your enemy is your enemy and work on resolving that. There's probably a great amount of misunderstanding on both sides. I'm sure that effort will cost less in lives, dollars and further hatred than what is invested in fighting your enemy. If a resolution isn't possible in the current time frame, harmoniously agree to disagree but leave channels of communication open, for all things change in time. In the meanwhile, everyone has the right of self-defense; no one has the right to use violence and aggression for purposes of conquest. Michael_d Rumad New member Post Number: 3 Registered: 06-2003 Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 03:59 pm:        Danielk wrote on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 11:06 pm: "I will not argue that America hasn't done things that I don't like very much - in fact we would agree on most things along those lines but I am not gonna sit back and say America is at fault for Adolph Hitler and we shouldn't have entered WWI." There is substantial ammount of evidence out there, that rich powerfull americans (often bankiers), amongst others (Many from the finance world in europe also. Switzerland not excluded!), actually create wars when THEY need to boost THEIR economy. They feed like ilks on humanity, troughout the world. The Ford family was amongst those who funded Hitler, to create his war machine. Hitler was of course a real evil guy, but he was more like a "ball in the game". He was fooled by those who funded him, to have him believe that he could create "The Reich", and he could never be allowed to win the war anyway! Why? Because the rich bankiers over the world, wanted to create a new Europe based on "consumer values", with false money, not backed by gold. They also exstended "The Third World", to have people work as slaves for them, and to keep the wages down, in more "developed" countries. This IS the world you see today! So why do you think they are outsourcing a lot of jobs out of the western hemisphere today? My intentions are not to pick one the american PEOPLE, but those who are, or have been, their leaders! Some litterature and other stuff: http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/best_enemy/ http://www.yirmeyahureview.com/videos.htm } Edward Member Post Number: 412 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 02:36 am:        Hi Rumad and All.... Yes, Rumad...you brought up some very good points there. When it all gets to the point...its all about MONEY (and POWER) - The Capitalist System -. You'd be surprised how many countries Financed and delivered Adolf Hitler all sorts of goods to keep him going. If he could not get it here...he could get it there! So, it was not only Wealthy Christians, Catholics and Jews..etc...that Financed him to make him what he became. Seeing that even parts of Eastern and Western Europe were in all sorts of Crisis(economic...etc...) and what else could One do..than to do BUSINESS..to build and help their country out of their poverty. Even these countries that delivered Adolf Hitler the goods...WERE Invaded by him! Yes, can you imagine that! That's the Irony of this all. So, just like the case is and was with Osama Ben Laden and Saddam Hussein..as Adolf Hitler(and many small leaderships around our globe), they were just in "The Timing" for the Wealthy to do business with hem. And of course, this all took action Behind it's people's Backs. Of course, We..the MASS...are being Feed all sorts of False PROPAGANDA to Brain-Wash us in Acknowledging everything the Leaderships want us to Acknowledge(for the Believers..Believe). And through this Propaganda, the above ONLY are The Boogie Men..and Not those who feed us with their LIES. And they say that the NAZI's were very good in MASS PROPAGANDA! Well, I wonder where today's Corrupt Leaderships got this Idea from? They must have taken it over from...Someone...and can see it's Benefits. So, there is an ENDLESS List...of Western countries that were Truly Very GUILTY...in Helping GENERATE and CREATE the mentioned Leaderships above(and others!). The above mentioned leaderships could NOT have... done it by themselves! And as you may know...,'Who delivered them their weaponry...in the first place!?' The WESTERN Countries! A small portion came from the Eastern European Countries(and others). So, as you see and can Notice, "Its ALL About MONEY"...alas to say. For some countries it would be for pure economic reasons, but in the cases of the Wealthy Countries - From a GREEDY point of view -. So, as you see...Not only did The Giza Intelligence..Influence Adolf Hitler...but even MANY a Western Wealthy and in Power and what not! But what else can One expect from The Giza Intelligence; to them THE STRONGEST..is the only thing that counts! And from there on...the Rest will come into realization by it self. But of course, this way of dealing and actions is at a point..that it can go on Endlessly...alas to say. Even though The Giza Intelligence is No More. Thus, the Power Hungry World Leaderships can still THRIVE...on this IMPULSE now that they have TASTED it. And it seems to taste very good to them! Which is very very difficult to make Undone...alas. Thus, for small Evolved human beings, especially the Ones with Power, this Impulse can be very very Dangerous for the MASS and the world itself in a whole. But than again, The MASS is in most cases....Still Young and Ignorant...to Know any better also. As they are Young and Small in Consciousness...thus do not know the True Situation(s) as they Truly Are. Thus, Lack the True Knowledge of KNOWING..as the more evolved human beings that walk our beautiful planet. The MASS is still at a State of Evolution of BELIEVING...instead of KNOWING. So they are in a state of BELIEVING everything that is being Absorbed by themselves.. instead of KNOWING. Which is quite a big difference. In definition as well as in practice. So, we can come to conclusion, that it all comes down to TIMING..and Global Situation(s). And for the Corrupted Wealthy and Weapon manufactures...this is a "HOLE IN THE MARKET"....and an opportunity for them to do BUSINE$$$$$$$$$$$! And of course, Misusing the Slogan - Every Country has the right to defend it self -..as long as THEY SELL!! So, WHO's the Real..Boogie man/men? I would Think, under the human beings, The Corrupt Wealthy & Co and in Power that THRIVE on the IMPULSES...of The Giza Intelligence, if not their own, instead of, at least, trying to utilize their "COMMON-SENSE and LOGIC". But as it seems, MONEY has More Power and Attraction over them than Healthy "COMMON-SENSE and LOGIC". The rest just becomes the VICTIMS of their Actions and Deeds. And from hereon..it leads to MASS Destruction...alas to say. So, as you can see, a bit of "Artificial" War-making..is part of this Scenario. So, when it gets down to the point, "THEY" ARE ALL...GUILTY....as can be. Edward. Hunter Member Post Number: 73 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 08:41 am:        Dan, No offense, but honestly, you need to do a lot more reading on this site and a lot less typing. You are demonstrating some highly illogical thinking patterns. To begin with you say “I don’t like guns” and I noticed in your other posts you’ve said “I feel…” a few times. The Plejarens have specifically pointed out the dangers of attaching negative or positive feelings to thoughts, and I can clearly see that your emotions are clouding your judgment about several issues. The Creation dictates that all life forms have the right of self-defense. It is illogical to assume that we may not protect the life we have been granted in the physical realm. I would also remind you that a gun is an inanimate object. A gun never killed anyone, just as a hammer and nails never magically flew into the air and built a house. To outlaw guns would leave individuals without an effective means to defend themselves against violent aggressors. If a 25-year-old criminal armed with a knife breaks into the home of an elderly person, that elderly person will have little chance to protect his or her life without a firearm. I can show you several stories such as this from local newspapers across the country—but only local newspapers report them—they are ignored by the national media due to their own bias against gun ownership. For those who believe more guns will produce more violence and crime, again, please look at Switzerland. They essentially have a national militia in which all able-bodied men are required to serve and thus almost every household has at least one military assault rifle. Yet, Switzerland does not aggress on other countries and their crime rate is no higher than other countries. I’ll end the paragraph with a quote from the leader of the largest nonviolent movement of the century, Mohandas Gandhi, who said “Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." (from “Gandhi, An Autobiography”, p. 446) Also, please note, Hitler was for gun control. And once he confiscated the Jewish peoples’ guns, his “Final Solution” was carried out with much greater speed as they were far less able to defend themselves. Next you say “we are not the only country who makes weapons so if we were to stop producing or selling I am sure…(other countries) wouldn’t stop.” Are you familiar with syllogisms at all, Dan? I would advise you to study basic logic and the syllogism. Also, I think you’re experiencing some cognitive dissonance. I would advise you to research that as well. But what you seem to be saying is, the United States produces and sells weapons and while producing and selling weapons is wrong, other countries produce and sell weapons also so it will be of no benefit for the U.S. to change. That’s like saying John is committing murder, but since several other people in the neighborhood are committing murder also, it will be of no benefit to the neighborhood if John ceases to commit murder. Or, less extreme, John is immoral and unethical, but since several other people John knows are immoral and unethical also, it will be of no benefit for John to try to improve his behavior. Do you see the irrationality of your assertion? And besides this, you are making false statements in your post. You state “You keep coming back that Hitler was justified due to the Treaty of Versailles.” But, Dan, I never said Hitler was justified for his actions. My exact statement was “I am in no way implying this excuses what the Nazis did later.” Meaning, Hitler was NOT justified. Hitler’s actions were immoral, unethical, and against the laws of Creation. What I was trying to say was, and my point in the whole matter is that Hitler barely gained power and would most likely not have done so without the chaos and hardship created by the Treaty of Versailles. Please realize, he was elected Chancellor of Germany BY ONE VOTE! Do you understand the effect that the hyperinflation had on the German economy, Dan? It was so bad a loaf of bread cost the equivalent of $300,000 in present day USD!!! Needless to say the monetary system became basically meaningless and people resorted to barter for essentials. Most of the German people lost EVERYTHING. For the young, their future looked meaningless—for the old, their retirement savings was wiped out. Do you see how these conditions might lead people to fall prey to the fascism of a charismatic Hitler-type? And yet he still barely gained power—because there were those right-thinking individuals in Germany who opposed him throughout his ascension to power. You also state “I suppose you are advocating a Jmmanual approach to self-defense which is none.” This is also false as Jmmanuel followed and taught the laws of Creation which specifically grant the right of self-defense if one’s life is endangered. What the Creational laws forbid is the act of killing in depravity. Have you even read the “Talmud of Jmmanuel”, Dan? Have you read “And Still They Fly”? If not you need to do so. In regards to Swiss neutrality and your allegation that “They had to be sued to payback all the Jewish victims holdings that the Nazi's stole.” Please provide your evidence to back this allegation up. I’ve been debating this point on the Internet for quite some time, and people keep bringing it up, but no one can produce any evidence. In fact, a couple of years ago in one of the political newsgroups a third party contributor (to the debate I was engaged in) provided a couple of news stories that actually absolved the Swiss government of any wrongdoing. Unfortunately, I didn’t copy and paste them to my hard drive, but they’re out there if you’re willing to search. Look, I have no doubt that a handful of banks may have been sympathetic towards and may have aided the Nazis, but I would deny that they were under orders from the Swiss government to do so. At least, I’ve never seen any evidence to prove that. And if you want to talk about private individuals and groups working with the Nazis, you better be prepared to talk about Americans, because it definitely happened (see the Bush family for starters…). You’re just completely contradicting yourself when you say “No use of weapons against those that have them?” You stated earlier that you want to outlaw guns, Dan. You don’t believe we have a right to defend ourselves, and then you’re accusing me of the same position? This makes no sense. You also state you want nothing to do with the military and then say we should not “ignore” the fact that other countries have militaries (so therefore our military has to do something about their military). You seem to want to remove your own personal responsibility and grant it to “leaders”. This in an illogical line of thought as well. The Plejarens have warned against abdicating our personal responsibility in all matters. Dan, “my world” is not some idyllic world. You misunderstand me. Utopia is not an option at this stage in our development. For one, we are too spiritually young as a whole, and secondly, we have been genetically manipulated with aggression and aging genes and are more prone to violence than normal humans. So, a life like the Plejarens have on Erra cannot be duplicated on present day Earth. And, no, I am not “ok” with atrocities being committed by anyone. Why would you assume this? Again, it appears emotion is greatly influencing your thinking patterns. Please try to think calmly about these issues. Violence only compounds problems and it is never the best solution. We should only use it when our lives are directly threatened. Otherwise, we should always look for peaceful solutions. Sometimes, a peaceful solution might require several years to accomplish, but it is worth the wait. It took Gandhi and the Indian people many years to free themselves from British rule, but they accomplished their objective with very little bloodshed, compared to a war. I feel terrible about innocent people losing their lives to tyrants, and it is happening all over the world. But the people who are being persecuted must find a way to overcome their own problems. It will be a difficult path to follow. Sacrifices will obviously be required —Gandhi spent several years in prison for example. But, if people all over the world began nonviolent revolutions, following the same principles Gandhi used in India, we could indeed have a much more peaceful world. Daniel, sometimes in order to learn truths, we have to questions what we already “know”. Please keep that in mind. To the moderators: sorry about the length of this post. Namaste, Hunter Hunter Member Post Number: 75 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 09:19 am:        Dan, I would recommend that you read as much as possible from the below links. I don’t agree with everything that is written on these links, but there is some good information there and I think it would be a good starting point for you to begin to learn about different thinking paradigms. http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/wuapref.shtml http://www.buildfreedom.com/content/other/brain_software.html http://www.buildfreedom.com/dirbks.htm Namaste, Hunter Rumad New member Post Number: 4 Registered: 06-2003 Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 02:49 pm:        Hello again Edward! And let's not forget the method "The Big Guys" work by, the Hegel philosophy. From: http://www.objectssearch.com/pedia/get.jsp?page=/wiki/Philosophy_of_history "Hegel argued that history is a constant process of dialectic clash, where one idea or event will form the THESIS, an opposing idea or event will be its ANTITHESIS, and theclash of the two will result in a SYNTHESIS. In synthesis, neither the thesis nor the antithesis are destroyed, but the prevaling moment will reflect a conjunction of the two." This clould be translated to: 1. The Problem (thesis) 2. The Reaction (antithesis) 3. The Solution (synthesis) The Problem. If the problem doesn't exists, they create a problem. Easy piecy, you just fund a dictator. The Reaction. War! Billions of dollar spendt on private corporations, selling weaponry, ammunition and supply to the state's war machinery. Each item is of course overprized to the extreme. The Solution. The war is won. Now The Big Guys can sell Coca Cola, junk food, drugs, washingmachines and TV-sets to indoktrinate the population even further. Many lives are lost in the war, we bury the history and let the next generation forget the past - thats what TV is for, isn't it? The Big Guys live happily thereafter. With their pockets full of money, and even more power, they don't give a darn about all the the familys that have lost a dear one. Really "smart", eh? ;) Danielk Member Post Number: 7 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 06:53 am:        Hunter, Sorry if this statement is a bit emotional for you : ) but I thought I would find on this board people who were willing to see our similarties and discuss differences. I thought your comments being a bit self-righteous - you don't know me or what my life/journey has been. To tell someone to stop typing and read a bit more is really arrogant - maybe you should come see my library. However I am willing to read other points of view. Are you? I was commenting on the here in now and your original posts which I found too condemning of the USA and letting the rest of the world off way too easy. You have your perspective and I have mine - again I believe we would have more in common than not. Your comments continue to point to the USA as the sole reason for problems. I personally have read and realize there are many other paradigms but that doesn't mean I agree with the paradigms you promote or vice versa. I don't see the contradiction of not liking guns but understanding the reality of today's world I thought I made that very clear. As far as Switzerland's government and financial institutions I don't understand why you think they were so innocent especially when they did have to payback Holocaust families. Fact is they had gold that was made up from pieces taken from concentration camp victims teeth in their vaults. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/tv/ http://www.giussani.com/holocaust-assets/updates/timeline.html "But the people who are being persecuted must find a way to overcome their own problems. It will be a difficult path to follow" Agreed and maybe the course of action these people took was appeasment, economic help in hoping a person such as Hitler or Hussein would see us as friends. Sometimes these courses of action backfire but at least its an attempt at trying to do something that isn't violent. The only judgement we can make is what was the intent of the leaders at the time when they made decisions. Were they out for money and power or just trying to establish a relationship with a dictator who they saw as a potential problem? Regardless I respect the fact that you have read and experienced many things in your life but to suppose I haven't because we disagree on some issues is indeed incorrect and pompous. Peace Dan Edward Member Post Number: 413 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 03:01 pm:        Hi Rumad.... Yes, that is very interesting...I must say. It all adds-ups, and number 4(if we wish to name it) being "The Result" of the THREE mentioned and it as being the "Synthetic" of the processing! 1. The Problem (thesis) 2. The Reaction (antithesis) 3. The Solution (synthesis) ============ IS ================ (4.) The Result (synthetic) So all THREE do add-up to a Non-Creational Law. Thus is a Man-made SYNTHETIC law. Thus, the three Ingredients can only result into Degeneration, Destruction and a Greedy way of being...and ALL that is connected with it. Though this reminds me of what is said in The Talmud of Jmmanuel. Chapter 34:56 "If, therefore, people say there exists also a trinity, then their consciousness has been addled by cult, falsified teachings or confused thinking." Chapter 34:66 "So when the scribes teach that a person lives in a trinity, this teaching is erroneous and falsified, because it is not taught in accordance with the laws of Creation." So the above mentioned from the TJ does relate to those SELFISH and GREEDY persons who do Handle according to the mentioned MAN-MADE principles of the THREE, thus the Falsehoods of the Trinity. And acting according to a Synthetic law. Edward. Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 29 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 08:21 pm:        Hi: I just don`t understand why much emphasis is put on the harm what Nazi Germany has done in WWII, while other countries have done evil things that lead to death of hundred of thousand of innocent lives that could be considered as war crimes. The usage of atomic weapons by the USA on Hiroshima and Nagasaki leading to the killing of above 200 000 innocent people is definitely a war crime. Another one is the brutality Stalin has shown to his own people during this war (OR the ethnic cleansing done by USSR in Eastern Europe just after the war). Is the US goverments ever paid the affected families in Hiroshima for reparation, for instance? By the way, as far as a know, the USA and Saddam Hussein`s Iraq are the only countries that have used weapons of mass destruction in a conflict. Evil and brutality perpetrated by the Nazis is a recognized fact, the Germans that i have spoken to admit it. Lot of English people (and French too) admit the legacy of colonialism and its consequences. Russians also admits the wrongdoings of communism. Americans in general cannot admit that their governments have also commited acts that could be considered war crimes in the past (fortunately not all of them, as those you find on antiwar.com). This why some people, like Hunter (Figu also) are putting more emphasis in those aspects, to balance-out the general view of main stream US media that US goverment/policy is more ethical that governments of other countries. This is by no means stating that the rest of the world is OK. But currently, the Bush administration have adopted the strategy of premptive strike as basis for US defence policy. The US can start war if they feel threatened. This is blank check to declare war at will, by using terrorism as an excuse. This attitude is the biggest threat to world peace at the moment. What if other countries decide it is a good strategy to use? What if China decide to use this policy in Taiwan? Pakistan? Russia? India , Iran...? Even a child can figure that there is currently a nuclear arm race in several countries looking for a deterrent for premptive war. It is easy to imagine the consequences. If people do not become reasonable and keep denying their reponsibility, as i keep reading in the news coming from the US and other parts of the world, then WWIII is truly inevitable. IS there any other current country than US (now in 2004, not in 1939!!) that is willing to start war on premption? (The answer is yes: Israel. Watch them this fall with Iran, probably on prime time FOX news...) Eric Danielk Member Post Number: 8 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:08 pm:        Eric, The emphasis was not Nazi Germany but that Hunter was inferring that due to the Treaty of Versailles the Americans were at fault for Hitler being angry which lead to WWII. I found posts being extremely anti-American and not holding the people who started the aggression/war responsible. While its important to point out how certain policies may have lead to certain actions on others in my opinion it also needs to be balanced. I don't think Americans have a hard time admitting where they have done wrong. Problem is unbalanced criticism. Either America doesn't act to stop atrocities or when they do unfortunately innocents are injured. America can't win. Maybe if those that criticized America also said how it is the most generous country the world has ever seen. The criticism by some European countries is astounding since with America's power could have colonized Germany, France and Japan just like the Soviet Union did to the Eastern bloc countries. America didn't instead it help those countries to have democracies and the freedom to criticize the country that helped them back on their feet. My in-laws who were children after WWII in Germany (and still live there) always feel grateful for how the America and its soldiers treated them. To say the main stream media doesn't criticize the American gov't is not true. Maybe you don't live in the USA but you can read the NY Times and watch CNN. Even fox news believe it or not criticizes the government. Hunter had a right to say what he wants but these opinions are just as one sided as the ones you claim he is trying to offset. As far as pre-emptive strikes are concerned what alternative do you suggest to keep innocents from being killed? Can we negotiate with these people? You criticize Israel as it cleans up another two bus bombings but yet this wonderful world, UN votes against Israel 100%, EU backs Palestinians despite Arafats corruption and terrorism. Please these criticisms are not balanced and offer no solutions. Does not Israel have a right to defend itself, is it Israel's fault that Arafat uses his people as political pawns to pull at the heart strings of the world? Too many make out like the Arab world is so friendly and are willing to live and let live - its not! Europe created the problem for Jews after WWII and now they look to finish the job. Voting against a peaceful solutions like the wall to keep out suicide bombers. Seems to me EU and UN want Israel to be sitting ducks. "If people do not become reasonable and keep denying their reponsibility, as i keep reading in the news coming from the US and other parts of the world, then WWIII is truly inevitable." Absolutely correct, but where do the people who practice terrorism get to have their responsibility? What is your solution so innocent people don't die? While I agree with your statements in principle how can they be applied to this unfortunate reality? As far as the nuclear bomb - Truman had a difficult decision to make in hindsight it was the wrong decision but at the time the Japanese refused to surrender. That being said maybe if the surrender terms allowed the Emperor to stay the Japanese would have giving up. We will never know. Regardless more people would have died on both sides. The one thing this points to is that all men need to realize war is not a winnable solution but it has to be all sides. One side can't make that decision while the other finds ways to kill, blow up buses, with strap metal laced with rat poison. David_chance Member Post Number: 27 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 09:33 am:        Speaking as an American who has endured a lifetime of American propaganda (if you think we aren't propagandized then you have been successfully indoctrinated), one thing America can do is stop meddling in the affairs of other countries, stop engaging in blackmail and political intrigues in the name of "American interests". If American government and "intelligence" agencies would stop such actions, such as (currently) working to overthrow the democratically elected president of Venezuela, or previous forms of meddling via politics, economics, etc. (see for example "A Timeline of CIA Atrocities", http://scribblguy.50megs.com/atrocities.htm or "American Terrorism" http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/AmericanStateTerrorism.html) then perhaps there would be less cause for terrorism in the first place. Pre-emptive aggression is the policy of paranoid psychopaths and a dangerous precedent. The outcome is such things as Iran now threatening a pre-emptive strike against Israel and the US http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040818194114.p2i3ppzv.html The picture of America as the world's police force, bringer of democracy and freedom, is a sham, a lie, a wolf in sheep's clothing. Would the US be so concerned about the atrocities in Sudan if it weren't for the recent discovery of oil and gold there? Why is it permissible for the American government to be supporting a dictator in one country (Karimov of Uzbekistan, http://www.thememoryhole.org/pol/us-and-uz.htm) but opposed to the dictator of another country? Hypocrisy, manipulation, lies and relying on the flag-waving "patriotism" of the majority of the American people allow these criminals in our government to continue their depraved actions. As Bob Dylan once said, "Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king." Hunter Member Post Number: 76 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 09:45 am:        Dan, You are correct, I don’t know you or the details of your life. All I have to go on are the words you type. I have no doubt you have read many books and experienced many things, but does your knowledge conform to the laws of Creation? Note: I did not say, you need to read in general, Daniel, what I said was, you need to read ON THIS SITE. You need to read the contact notes (to me, these are the best) and you need to understand the laws of Creation. You need to read all the documents on http://www.theyfly.com and watch Michael’s new DVD as well. Now, if you think it makes me arrogant or self-righteous to tell this to people, then so be it. But I don’t think it’s arrogant or pompous to attempt to correct someone who is telling me 2 + 2 = 5, and in my opinion this is what you are doing, in that you are arriving at illogical conclusions. One could read an entire library full of books, but if one is unable to think logically and fails to grasp the Creational laws, one has accomplished very little in the big picture. I don’t want to go into detail and answer to specifics of your post again. I can see that you are intent on maintaining your worldview—which is the majority view in the U.S. All you have to do is watch the speeches at the Republican National Convention this week to see your arguments reiterated. I did read over the Swiss links—I’ve seen most of it before and obviously I disagree with a lot of it—but again it will be too time consuming to respond to and/or refute each and every detail. I will say that I am very glad you have found your way to this site. I hope you will spend more time here and I hope you will open your mind to new possibilities. Namaste, Hunter Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 30 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:42 pm:        Hello: German Nazi have played on the sense of frustation of their people in the 30`s, and they put fault for their problems on others - denial of responsibility. This is well documented (for instance W. Shirer book on the `rise and fall of Nazi Germany`). Some historians have postulated that western countries were partly responsible for the rise of the Nazis, i think it is rather that actions of the victors (cause) created an effect on which the Nazis played on. This was not necessarily intentionally, because In the end, Germans elected the Nazis. I share the same worries on the Israel-Palestine than Daniel does. There is a huge feeling of frustation among the Arab people that they have been screwed by the western countries for decades, and radical islamists are playing on these sensitive strings to induce young people into terrorism, murder and so forth. Every time, there is a bombing in Israel, there is always a retaliation, where 5 times people more people are killed which increase anger more and more. But always it is true that the latter is unfortunetely downplayed in the US and western media (and overplayed on AlJazeera ...). Same thing in Iraq. Like if an Arab`s life worth less than an Israeli or an American. Very disturbing, as this reminds me of Orwell`s "Animals Farm" (the pigs are more equal than others animals, did you ever read this?) There was one wise person, Y. Rabin, that finally undertood that this situation has no issue, and peace had to be negociated. He got assasinated. We need to understand why people are so desperate that they blow themselves up, or committing suicide or crashing planes on towers. And the conditions which lead these people must be corrected. These people are humans, as we are all do. Even if their mind are totally degenerated by their fanatical cultist religion. But watch out, when questioning this, you will question you own belief. When I further think about it , I come to the conclusion that religious belief (even any belief)is the cause of a lot of problem, even most of the problem of this world. (Fanatical islamists are lead to kill in the name of god. Zionists kill Palestinian because God gave their land 4000 year ago, G.W. Bush believe his actions are inspired by God and can therefore launches premptive war! etc..) Religion leads to lack of responsibility, because in a cult, you put responbility of your actions into an outside entity or into religious guru, or it put responsibility from a previous life (karma). The source of a lot of problems in this world is within each person. Surprising, eh? The good news is that solutions of the world`s problem is also in each person! Get rid of a Earth religions and stop acting in the name of imaginary god would be a good start to avoid innocent victims. A second step would be for each of us to start acting logically, per natural-creational directives, and take responbility of their lives. Doesn`t take Plejarans to figure this out. Just logic. But it will take lot of time. I hope you are patient .... Peace Eric Danielk Member Post Number: 9 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 10:16 pm:        Hunter, I appreciate your more friendly approach because if people like us can't get along then there is no hope for this world (please read my post under dreams subject). My views are no different than yours and from the positive aliens who come to teach us where we need to go. Here is my issue with how do we get there when you have an enemy who only wants you dead and refuses to negotiate - do not these aliens defend themselves? I want you to convince me that if we take a non-violent path that I won't lose anymore friends like I did on 9/11. Millions of Jews walked sheeplessly to their death without putting up a fight in WWII. What did that get them, a small parcel of land where they are surrounded by hatred and death, a Europe that supports their enemy and a UN that is no better. Then I read in others posts that the reason Jews have had so many atrocities against them is kharma. Really the Jews or their ancestors were really that bad that the rest of the world has been justified to carry out systematic elimination for the past 2000 years? I will continue to read the Law of Creation but since you have more knowledge than me on this particular subject can you answer the questions I have? Thanks. Dan Danielk Member Post Number: 10 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 10:54 pm:        Eric, Thanks for your views. I do find it interesting that your comments on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict only correlate to the Arab viewpoint. Again how many times has Israel tried to negotiate with Arafat only to be rewarded with killing. Should Israel not defend itself? Yes its unfortunate people die but don't you see that the terrorists live amongst the population. That Arafat has no problem sacraficing his people to pull at your heartstrings? Please tell me what should Israel do? Rabin was reluctant but yet saw the need for peace. However, it didn't eliminate terrorist attacks on Israel. "We need to understand why people are so desperate that they blow themselves up, or committing suicide or crashing planes on towers. And the conditions which lead these people must be corrected." Agreed, do you think that maybe its the Palestinian leadership thats the problem. Arafat just sent $30 million that the EU and USA gave them to his wife in Paris. Did not Barak offer the Palestinians a State with Arafat turning it down with no negotiation? Has not the Arab world tried again and again to eliminate Israel? Why would you think Arafat has any other plans than to do the same. To the part about what makes someone so desperate is laughable. Its called brainwashing - are you aware of the vile hatred in the Palestinian schools that are taught in books? I have been to Tibet where the Chinese are literally taking away the Tibetan culture. Do you know something the Tibetans literally will not hurt a fly - its their upbringing and how they value life. The Palestinians and Islamic terroists value death. Israel values all life including the Palestinians. You do realize there are over 1 million Israeli Arabs don't you? How many Jews are allowed to live in Arab countries? With the fire power of the Israeli Army they could end this conflict in days but they don't why? They value life. If you weren't aware most Israeli's are secular, there are far more orthodox Jews in NYC alone then all of Israel. Yes there are a handful of crazies who may fall under your statement " Zionists kill Palestinian because God gave their land 4000 year ago" but most Israeli's/Jews want to live in peace and be able to protect themselves. I just wish the Palestinians could get out of their own way. They are their own worse enemies. I agree get rid of the Earths religions and focus on the spiritual aspects and there would be far less problems. Question is how can we get there? Patience I have lots of patience. Dan Mhurley Member Post Number: 58 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:20 am:        I agree get rid of the Earths religions and focus on the spiritual aspects and there would be far less problems. Question is how can we get there? Patience I have lots of patience. I think we're in for the long haul. It will probably take 100's of years for the average person to have the knowledge of a passive/core group member Matt Edward Member Post Number: 414 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 10:01 am:        Hi Dan.... Well, The Wall/Fence...can only be a "Temporary" solution. I find it more feasible for the Sharon government to negotiate which would have advantage for both Palestinians and Israelis - in a Balanced way -, because it would be better to negotiate and let the Wall/Fence come-down in a diplomatic way...than in a manner of Violence. If this does not come to realization, surely the Violent way would be its Result...alas to say. The Wall/Fence reminds me of The Trojan Horse scenario. If radicals want to get IN....the surely Can!. The Wall/Fence is only making way for both Palestinians and Israelis to "Drift" More...Far Apart..from each other. And the Israeli government taking down some hundred settlements... here...and behind the backs setting up NEW settlements THERE! And Mr.Sharon is Not even living-up to that So-called "Road Map"! And do you think Mr.Powell Cares and the Bush administration?? NOT!! Ofcourse, it is such a pity that Mr.Rabin was Assassinated by one of his own people. But than, what else can One expect from a Radical Religious Jewish Fanatic. And Mr.Rabin being Jassar Arafats best freind. This event Broke the Hope for both peoples. Some 5-6 years ago there were some good television documentary coverage and this concerned Israel wanted to Occupy parts of land that is Rich in Resources! It was mentioned that the Israeli government were doing all sorts of "Test-Drillings"...and yes, what for: "OIL". And even for other valuable resources. Of course, this did not make world Headlines...alas to say. So, there seems to be more reason for the Israeli government to want to Occupy as much land as they can. This does remind me of the American Native Indians Scenario. Get Ride of the Palestinians, as much as you can, and Take Over The Lands...and let's ENRICH OURSELVES!!!. So, the "Struggle Obstacle"....is The Palestinians!(As in America...It was The Indians) That gives the todays Israeli government reason Not to Acknowledge a Palestinian State - let alone...one side by side with an Israeli state. So, Israel does not only want the land... - for the land -..but for it's Resources...and IT being a Vital Strategic Point to aide the USA - Bush Oil Administration and Co. -. Why do you think that The Bush Oil Administration Hold Hands So Tight with Israel!? THEY BOTH...what to take over ALL Earthly Resources as much as they can to Rule over the earth populations. And this does No good to countries like China and Russia. They were both dependent on the oil contracts they made with Saddam Hussein. And now that Saddam is not in power anymore...well..We people on Earth have something else to worry about! China and Russia! Do you think China and Russia want to live-up to the Bush Oil Administraion's conditions? Or the new Puppet Government's? So, without a doubt, they will surely come in to The Scene also...as is mentioned in the Prophecies. You really think that the Palestinians have FUN Blowing themselves up? Well, there is just MORE to it..than you may think. Well, as the Plejarans have mentioned; that Israel must GIVE the Arabs - including the Palestinian People - Back ALL Occupied land. If this is not the case, well, the Henoch Prophecies will come into realization and which will cause Israel to be annaihilated..if there is chance. One can compare it with the USA's todays government Occupying Iraq and ALL Other Arab Countries also. If this does Not come into Realization, well, the Plejarans have been MORE than CLEAR...with The Consequences! But seeing that todays Israeli government(and US) do Not want to make this into Realization....well, it's Out-Come is Clear as can be, thus, the Violence will only take Greater Proportions...and Inferno our globe even more. So, All the Radical Violence the Israelis bring upon the Palestinian people..the More IT WILL...Escalate. WALL or NO WALL!! And I would like to bring forth that because all this Israeli "OVERKILL".. there are hundreds of children under the age of 10 years old becoming - Heart Patients - and traumatized ! BECAUSE OF THIS INHUMANE ISRAELI WAR OVERKILL!(as is the case in Afghanistan) Even many children have died just from "Shock". And it is as Clear as it can be... how Rich the Israelis live in comparison with the Palestinians in their Refugee Camps. One must Not say...they want to Blow themselves up because they want to or what ever. And you can say that the Palestinian children learn this at school, which I am aware of, but, what do you think the Israeli children learn at Their Schools!? Just like their Religion; THAT that land - The Land of Palestine - ...Is Their Land and it is theirs and Not the Palestinians. So, Whom is Propagating WAR and HATE!!?? Well, if the Israelis Propagate such False Teachings, at their Synagogues or Schools...well, your bound to have a Reaction to this. Thus, this is Not in it's place..I find it. I think Many would Agree with me. Thus, False Teachings are Not only being taught in the Synagogues - EVEN IN THEIR SCHOOLS!!! It's just like saying, in the US conservative schools - That GOD gave America to the Americans -. Thus, Not only False Teachings in their Churches...but...Even in Their Conservative Schools! The Land Of Milk And Honey. And The Land...that can make your DREAM come True! Well, a DREAM...is just a DREAM...which can NOT last forever! The way its going now...It Will Become...a NIGHTMARE...alas to say. Because THEY have LOST Touch of REALITY. Just as the Israelis have. Their DREAM LAND..is based on the Same False TEACHING(s). Something to THINK About.... Thus, Who's Brainwashing Whom....??? Concerning Germany: Well, Germany was Not that "Frustrated" as you have mentioned. The WHOLE WORLD was at That Time period...FRUSTRATED! And so the world governments, and mainly the Western, Knew..that the Weaponry Industry would bring in MASS In-come for them, and thus, they found an "ESCAPE GOAT" in no time. It be Adolf Hitler...or whom ever. As even today, there is a Great MISUSE of Power. I have pity on the Afghan Liberators that die for their country; I have pity for the Iraqi Liberators who die for their country; I have pity for the Palestinian Liberators who die for their country...But, I Also have pity for the US Troops and ally troops, and Israeli troops and ALL Other Life Forms that have died in the name of "Corrupt Government MISUSE of Power"! And Misleading the mentioned for their OWN WELL BEING!!! And this is where WE MUST make a STOP to! This IS...Truly "The Pinnacle Of STATE TERRORISM"!! But as Billy has mentioned once - The Ones with "OPEN EYES" can SEE this True Manifestation -. And I would say: The Ones who do Not SEE this... are just Blinder than any Blind man can ever be! Edward. Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 32 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 07:43 pm:        Hi Dan and all: In the book i read recently from R. Baer, (See no evil) there is a lot of information toward links or (apparence of links) between Arafat and terrorist organization in Lebanon, and even with Iran !. Y. Rabin was criticized at the time of the Oslo accord to deal with someone with "bloods in his hands". The facts you have mentioned Dan are well documented (the corruption of Arafat`s people). Several people say that Arafat really missed a big opportunity when rejecting the deal with Ehud Barak. All True! But since Sharon took power, i am sure there is more violence and more attacks against innocent civilians in Israel. In general, violence breeds violence, terror nourrishes more terror. The terrorist`s mind are so full of hatred and revenge that they are totally illogical, they breed a need for revenge among innocent people affected (the terrible events in North Ossetia since two days are a very very sad example). This in return lead to more violence from the governments (e.g. Russia, Israel, US) against terrorism and so on and so forth. One could come with the argument Israel is the only democracy in the region, except Turkey. One may counterargue that if Israel is a democracy, why don`t they allow the return of millions palestinians to their home? And in the Muslim world, religion is too much linked with politics. This is a very big problem. I think they need to evolve and the change has to come from the population there. But I further think intervening in these countries is just making the situation worse. As for Israel, their current governement is strongly influenced by the Zionist and orthodox fringe which do not represent the majority of population, secular. But why Israel doesn`t get out of the occupied territories? Why just retiring from Gaza is so difficult? (i personally think their are religious reasons behind this, i would like to read what the others think about it before i elaborate more) Note: Also when i read about the supposed karma of jews, this is non-sense to me also. This is denial of responsibility again. People can change things if they really want it. Peace Eric Hunter Member Post Number: 77 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 08:54 am:        Daniel, Well, I think we apparently do have different views. If you haven’t read all the available material that the Plejarens have given to Billy, then I don’t know how you can say your views are no different than theirs if you don’t know specifically what all of their views are. I will say that I do hope you take this in the spirit that it is intended, which is to be helpful and encouraging, although the tone may not seem that way at times. Now, you ask me to convince you that if we, as Americans, take a nonviolent path that you won’t lose any more friends as you did on September 11th. First, let me say that I am sorry for your loss, but I would caution you against the influence of the emotions of grief and fear on your thinking. You seem to be afraid to try a different approach for fear that it will lead to more pain for you. It is understandable why you might feel this way emotionally, but it is not logical. Secondly, you shouldn’t allow anyone to “convince” you of anything. I will present my thoughts on the matter, and it is up to you to determine whether or not they are logical. You should question everything I say, just as you should question anything anyone tells you. You say we have an “enemy.” I would ask, how do you define this enemy? Are they human beings? Do they have spirit forms? And are all human beings equal in the eyes of Creation? Did they have mothers and fathers, possibly children of their own? Are they capable of learning and spiritual growth? Are they as human beings capable of experiencing emotions? Why do they feel the need to kill Americans? Are they possibly seeking revenge? If so, revenge for what? Or, as Bush claims, do they blindly hate us for our “freedom” and affluence? I don’t know about you Daniel, but I find it odd that the people in this country are not allowed to hear the words of Bin Laden. Is he just a cold-blooded killer? Or is he asking for certain demands to be met in order for the violence to stop? Does he feel wronged for past deeds by the U.S. and can this possibly be rectified? The vast majority of people here honestly won’t know because our government claims certain statements he may make might be a “secret code” to “activate” alleged terrorist cells here in the U.S. (Wonder why these hidden cells in the U.S. aren’t striking us constantly if they hate us so much?) If you’ve seen Fahrenheit 9/11, then you know that there is clear evidence that the Bush family had several business dealings with some of Bin Laden’s siblings. Don’t you think he has enough connections that he could find a way to open a dialogue if he really wanted to try? Now, what we do have are the written words of Bin Laden from 1996 and what he says is this: he believes jihad is necessary because (1) American troops (and mentioned in particular female troops) are on sacred Islamic soil in Saudi Arabia. (2) the sanctions against Iraq after the first Gulf War were hurting the citizens and weakening the country IN PREPARATION FOR ANOTHER INVASION (that’s an interesting prediction). (3) And the support of Israel, who Bin Laden believes is persecuting the Palestinians. I don’t know if you saw “Meet the Press” this morning (9/5/04), but Pat Buchanan stated these reasons for terrorism by Bin Laden. Buchanan said our policies were the reasons for the attack, not that “Bin Laden was sitting in a cave, stumbled across the Bill of Rights, and went bananas.” Newt Gingrich was also on the panel and was asked to respond and said basically “we can’t have Bin Laden dictating where we send our troops because America must stabilize the oil region, otherwise oil would cost 200 or 300 dollars a barrel.” That’s a fascinating admission, if you ask me. So, what Gingrich is saying is that these troops are essentially dying to keep the price of oil as cheap as possible. Now, Buchanan didn’t question him on that—I definitely would have. And I would argue that the price would not automatically go up as Gingrich claims if the U.S. is not in the region. I think the price would probably drop from current levels because terrorism against the U.S. would stop. Although there might be unrest and some of the regimes might be toppled by current terrorists (in particular the Saudi family)—they would just assume the fortune—already a vast amount of wealth—of the regimes so I don’t think they would see a need to raise prices (If you’ve been poor all your life and you stumble upon billions of dollars, are you happy with that or do you immediately desire more money?) Also, they would have no reason to raise prices in an attempt to economically hurt the U.S. because the U.S. wouldn’t be militarily influencing the region anymore. You also ask if these aliens defend themselves. The answer is “yes” the Plejarens have used and do advocate the use of lethal force if their lives are threatened. And, believe me, if I had been on one of those planes knowing they were going to kill me and hundreds of other innocent people, and had been armed with a gun, I would have shot and killed every single one of the hijackers if they would not have surrendered. When I say “non-violent” what I really mean is non-offensive force. Defensive force is acceptable—to defend your life or the lives of other innocent people. I don’t have time right now to go into the full situation with Israel. I will say that if the Jewish people wish to slowly, legally immigrate to the U.S. to avoid persecution, well, that would be an acceptable course of action. But, for us to sell weapons and offer military support to Israel is clearly creating a “blow back” against U.S. citizens. Again, Daniel, please go to http://www.theyfly.com and read of the writings of Billy Meier under the Documents link at the top of the web site. Previously, there were links to some of the contact reports on http://www.billymeier.com , but they seem to have been disabled. I don’t know what your financial situation is, but if you have the funds available you really need to order the “The Meier Contacts” DVD and the book “And Still They Fly.” I cannot stress the importance of this enough. I am happy to try to inform you, but I only have so much time available and there is no substitute for reading and seeing the information in its original state. Namaste, Hunter Hunter Member Post Number: 78 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 09:10 am:        Matt, Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. We are hundreds of years away from the dissolution of our false religions. And this is mentioned in the 251st contact report. Eric, I agree with you also that there are underlying religious reasons as to why the Israelis won’t relinquish control of certain areas. The Zionist influence is still the strongest force in the government, even though it does not reflect the majority secular view. To relocate the Jewish people to Israel after World War 2 has turned out to be one of the worst political decisions of the century—it will be the worst of the millennium if it leads to a fulfillment of the Henoch Prophecies. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen. Namaste, Hunter Hunter Member Post Number: 80 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 10:59 am:        Daniel, Here is a link to a Nexus magazine article which reprints the Henoch Prophecies (it was originally posted by Harry_d in the FIGU related folder under miscellaneous discussion). You need to read it: http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Henoch%20Prophecies.html Hunter Member Post Number: 85 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 03:01 pm:        Background on the Russia - Chechnya Conflict http://slate.msn.com/id/2106287/ http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1080 Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 33 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 05:29 pm:        Hello: I am sad to see news supporting my previous arguments. Nice example to the world the Bush administration is showing. Even Iran talked 2 weeks ago about this. Read this: Britain backs Russian threat of pre-emptive strikes LONDON (AFP) Sep 08, 2004 Russia's threat to carry out pre-emptive strikes against terrorist bases outside its territory is "understandable" and within international law, British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said Wednesday. "I think the reaction is an understandable one," said Straw in London, after Russian army chief of staff Yury Baluyevsky said Moscow would not hesitate to carry out pre-emptive strikes to "liquidate terror bases in any region". "The United Nations charter does give the right of self-defence and the UN itself has accepted that an imminent or likely threat of terrorism certainly entitles any state to take appropriate action," Straw said. Salome Eric Edward Member Post Number: 415 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 02:23 am:        Hi All.... Yes, it is all truly becoming very very Serious...alas to say. With the mentioned " pre-emptive strikes against" and all. It seems, what I watched on a News coverage; that someone of the Al Qaida branch/supporter even mentioned that the more the American Government increase their attacks in Afghanistan and Iraq...the More...They...Will Increase doing the same. This gentlemen that was being interviewed..even mentioned, something like; as example: - What the Americans did to the Japanese in the second world war...WE...Will Do To Them. And make Dust out of them - (Meaning Nuclear). So, as you can notice how serious this is all becoming. Thus, they, Al Qaida and other formations, seem to want to attack the invader's Homelands also with "Pre-Emptive Strikes"! The Pre-Emptive Strikes are Truly Escalating...as it seems. It seems that All Parties..are Married to WAR...: "For The Better...and For The Worse." Yes, very very worrisome...I would say. THANK YOU...Mr. Bush and Co....- For this Never Ending Story...-!! Edward. Danielk Member Post Number: 11 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 07:48 am:        Hunter, Thanks for your responses - been on vacation. I will say as you get into more detail on your views on world matters and not rely solely on Plejaren influence I would agree we differ greatly. "You also ask if these aliens defend themselves. The answer is “yes” the Plejarens have used and do advocate the use of lethal force if their lives are threatened. And, believe me, if I had been on one of those planes knowing they were going to kill me and hundreds of other innocent people, and had been armed with a gun, I would have shot and killed every single one of the hijackers if they would not have surrendered. When I say “non-violent” what I really mean is non-offensive force. Defensive force is acceptable—to defend your life or the lives of other innocent people." Let's see the Plejarens advocate force to protect themselves but Israelis and Americans cannot? mmmmhhh "I don’t have time right now to go into the full situation with Israel. I will say that if the Jewish people wish to slowly, legally immigrate to the U.S. to avoid persecution, well, that would be an acceptable course of action. But, for us to sell weapons and offer military support to Israel is clearly creating a “blow back” against U.S. citizens." I wish you would take the time to explain your views since I am finding your advocacy increasingly disturbing. So you are advocating the Jewish people give up their country? Seems to me this just allows the UN, EU and the rest of the world to ignore its anti-semitic ways. mmmmhhhh Hunter it seems to me that the Jews have been accomodating the worlds hatred for a long time. According to your post The World would rather have Jews not defend themselves but rather walk sheeplessly into fake showers but yet the Plejarens have no problem defending themselves just not letting others do the same. mmmmhhhh I realize the philosophical difference between offensive and defensive strikes. So from what I am to understand is that the Plejarens would wait for some of their people to be killed before reacting even if they had prior knowledge? mmmmhhhh Hunter I realize you have said that you disagree with claims about Switzerlands lack of neutrality in WWII. Even though it has been proven you don't want to see the truth in the matter. As an educated man it troubles me that you would ignore these facts but unfortunately you are not alone in putting ones head in the sand. So Israel/Jews are responsible for this conflict but the Arabs have none? mmmmmhhhh Quote from Dennis Ross , who has written a book, “The Missing Peace,” about his experiences, said he had never encountered an Arab leader who recognised Israel’s right to exist — only that it exists" Since your post never criticize Arafat or other Arab leaders I assume you feel Palestinians are justified in their homicidal bombings targeting Israeli children and innocents - that is justified according to you? mmmmmhhhh Maybe you agree with it. Hunter believe me when I tell you I am not a stupid person and have read many books, studied the politics and history and have had many experiences. I just don't get the philosophy expounded, its seems hypocritical and very inconsistent. It applies to some but not to others. If Israel didn't have its military capability do you think for one second the Arab countries wouldn't destroy her. They have tried many times already. Again I guess you are advocating this position - very sad. One final question for you? Did you criticize King Hussein of Jordan when he slaughtered 20,000 Palestinians or when the Syrians killed 10,000? Far more than Israel had killed in its defense. Just curious. Lastly, I realize no one can convince me but you can use your viewpoitns, Plejaren philosphies to answer questions that I have. At this point to much of what I have read is not consistent enough. One thing is certain the escalation of violence is troubling. Unless you are an advocate for Bin Laden and the Arab perspective then why don't you criticize them at all? Michael Member Post Number: 442 Registered: 10-2000 Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 09:44 am:        If one reads the first several books of the OT, they will see that the Israelites/Hebrews willingly followed the obscene commands of a sadistic, genocidal manic who represented himself as their "Lord God". This being commanded the senseless, specifically merciless slaughter of men, women children and infants, mainly innocent non-combatants, numbering more than 10,000,000 people. This was the original establishment of the "state" of Israel. These barbaric actions were ostensibly commanded by the same being that took credit for the commandment against murder, i.e. the killing of innocents. As Jmmanuel pointed out in the TJ, unless the descendants of those Israelites make a just and true peace with the descendants of the "rightful owners" of that land, they will know no peace until the end of time. That doesn't justify Islamic terrorism, though it may shed some light on one more example of how the laws of cause and effect cannot be cheated. And, of course, the same applies to all acts of aggression, which violate spiritual laws, and ultimately must receive their due. Michael Horn Markc Member Post Number: 168 Registered: 06-2000 Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 10:09 pm:        Inspired forgiveness and a balanced abilty to turn conditions and attitudes into their direct opposites . In effect , that is the goal of the Peace Meditation and all efforts of reason by the FIGU. Mark Campbell Danielk Member Post Number: 12 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 11:45 pm:        Michael, Thank you for those interesting insights. Can you point to any other historical references to this history. If based upon your facts then it would seem the Germans are in for one hard time with their history, how about the Spanish and French and the Japanese? Stalins USSR killed well over 20 million. I guess the whole world be damed. So why are the Hebrew ancestors condemned for the past 2000+ years but Germans have yet to see their "cause and effect" kharma yet? I have no way of saying those numbers aren't correct or that history may have played out the way you claim. By the way who was this genocidal maniac? However, it does seem there is a lot of justification for the mass murder of Jews over the centuries but their seems to be too many excuses for those that have killed many more. I don't mind "cause and effect" theory and quite frankly agree with it but I sure wish it was consistent with all the peoples of the world. For all of you who give me one star on my posts and wish I would go away. Here is some advice. If you wonder why the world doesn't buy into most of this information its because the message is inconsistent. Its not because people aren't ready for it because many of those that I meet are looking for answers and to change their life and the world for the better. We all have to be able to make sense of things and so far the answers I get are one sided, not balanced and inconsistent. As I have said before I would really really like to believe most if not all that is being shared but you can't condemn one people for something and not the other. There has to be some consistency in the message. Dan Danielk Member Post Number: 13 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 11:48 pm:        Markc, Thanks for the positive words and thoughts. Dan Edward Member Post Number: 417 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 01:53 am:        Hi All.... The Only Solution for Israel is indeed to make Everlasting Peace with their Palestinian bothers and sisters. Do they Both...not Acknowledge that they are both descendants of the Arch-Father Abraham. So, why is brother fighting brother...One would ask One's self? Its time for Both to Examine their Genetic-Roots and become ONE People again; if they wish, surely...even in two separate states can still bind them as ONE Unity. And as Jmmanuel even mentioned that the future Israeli people still have ONE Chance to make this Everlasting Peaceful existence come into reality, but if they do not choose to do so...Well, the Annihilation of the state of Israel would only become a Fact. So I would Acknowledge that the Positive Conscious people of Israel must try and do their best to make this "One Time Chance" come into reality for the betterment of their existence and of their brothers the Palestinians. At this Time, Mr.Bush and his Oil Administration is Not the only Head of State..that has to be set out of a leading position, even one Mr.Sharon ...if he still does not come to his Senses. As now, it seems, he has Truly dug his Own Grave..so to speak, and has even managed to have Jewish Radicals in his Own cabinet..Nailing him to his Own Cross. Thus, he must Now...make Quick and Reasonable decision to fulfill the POSITIVE Fate..for Both peoples. Before it is TO LATE! I have been surfing the internet and am very very surprise that there is a great amount of people Opposing the Acts of the Israeli Government as well as it's People. And as One reads further, One can notice that the Hate is Growing towards the mentioned People. One would say, that this comes from groups that propagate "Nazism" which is Not always the case, but...They, Fear Greatly the Up-Coming of the Israeli Jewish "Na-Zionism". Thus, as One can notice, that there are two Fires burning in the fireplace...which Will..Surely Burn Down The WHOLE House if they do not "Extinguish" their False Ideas and Ways of living. If Israel does not Change their Attitude of being...they will surely be Hated..even More Greatly than the Americans...as it seems. And this Hate...is in great part to be thanked by the Bush Oil Administration, who have, in their Top-Functions Many Jewish Zionists..which play a great role..in the situation we are all in. Thus, the Jewish Zionist society..have to Thank their OWN Brothers of Leadership..for the situations WE...and THEY are in today! It is Time...for Israel to make Good Use...of this One Time Chance. While they can. If this is not taken in to Positive Action...well..; the Annihilation of Israel will become a Fulfillment..as mentioned in the Henoch Prophecies...which will leave No Positive Results for Both Peoples and their surrounding countries...and even The World. The WARNINGS...are there...in Henoch's Prophecies. As the saying goes: 'Prevention is better than Healing!' But in This Case: 'Prevention is better than Annihilation!' Edward. Edward Member Post Number: 418 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 12:44 am:        Hi Dan.... I would not be too sure of that 20 million you've mentioned. There are A LOT of "Inaccurate" body counts...when it comes down to Genocide-type of deaths. We intend to get "Carried Away" by such Great Amounts. The Plejarens have a more Accurate counting(by accessing the Beyond and others) than is done here on earth. Earth "Propaganda-Counts" that exceed above 8-10 million do tend to be based on False and Inaccurate counts. But anyway we look at it: if we leave it up to the Judeo/Catholic/ Christian Religion... 3/4 of our To Days world population would cease to exist! Some Body Count...and World Record. Not? And if the Christian Religion had had its way...WE would have been Extinct some 500 or more years ago. This is where Billy and the Pleajarens come in and "Assist" Man..here on earth from such Global Holocaust. Which WE ALL should be Thankful for. Please do FIGU-discussion board search on this topic? Using the Search Tool.(Very Helpful!) There is enough information concerning the population volumes..through-out the existence on Man that were discussed in previous postings. Peace Be With You.... Edward. David_chance Member Post Number: 28 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 09:43 am:        De-Classified Document Admits Oswald Was CIA http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2004/160904oswaldwascia.htm This further supports what is written in the Meier material, that Kennedy was murdered by the CIA. The following statement by Asket is taken from a contact dated 3 Feb 1956, as found in Stevens' eBook "UFO Contact From the DAL Universe with Asket of the Timmers Society" (available at: http://www.theyfly.com/products.htm or from Wendelle Stevens at: http://www.ufophotoarchives.org/page3.html 161. In the time of Chruschtschov will be elected a new President in America, by the name of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, but to be murdered in 1963 by secret order of the American security service, the CIA. 162. The date of his death will be the 22nd of November 1963, in Dallas, Texas. Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 36 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 07:37 pm:        Hi David and all: If you have a look in http://www.majesticdocuments.com there are documents that seems to confirm also this. Dan: Cause and Effect law affect everyone. Example: Germans after WWII lost big parts of their territories to Poland and Russia and Czechoslavquia as a consequence of the damage they did to these countries. (East Prussia, Koenigsberg, Silesia, Sudeten region, etc ..) There has been an ethnic cleansing of 12-13 millions Germans, who were deported or expelled from their houses in the above mentioned regions to go back to East Germany. Stalin`s USSR deported all remaining Germans in Koenigsberg, and populated it with Russian, and recalled the city "Kaliningrad" (just look on the map Dan to see where this is, between Poland and Lithuania). This was the city where most of the Prussian kings were crowned for centuries, the city of Emmanuel Kant and of great mathematicians and the German main cultural center. Lost... Cause and effect. Inescapable. Salome Eric Hunter Member Post Number: 87 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 12:41 pm:        Dan, I’m curious, are you of Jewish ancestry? I only ask because this issue seems to be intensely personal for you. It’s not my intent to make anything personal, but I have to say that I really don’t appreciate your insinuation, in fact I find it highly offensive, that I deem bombings against women and children to be acceptable. Usually when someone reverts to ad hominem or character attacks in a debate, it means they’re trying to deflect attention away from the issue(s) at hand. Is that the case here, Daniel? If you want to have an honest debate about this—I have no problem with that—but you will need to reciprocate. First of all, there is nothing inconsistent with what the Plejarens have said about our current situation on Earth, in the Middle East or anywhere else on the planet. Either I have not explained it well enough, or you simply haven’t read enough of their analysis to understand it properly. I think the former may be the case in regards to the use of force in self-defense so I will address that first. (I think the latter may be the case in general because you haven’t acknowledged reading any of the material I’ve recommended.) You question me by saying “the Plejarens advocate force to protect themselves but Israelis and Americans cannot?” implying this was my point. But, that was not my point. There is no hypocrisy on their part, Daniel. You have misunderstood what I am trying to tell you. It must be placed in the context of the situation. A threat to one’s life AND imminent danger MUST be involved for lethal force to be an option. With the terrorist hijackings on September 11, a person would be in the right if they wanted to confront the hijackers/terrorists and demand that they relinquish control of the aircraft. The intent being to “remind” the terrorists that they have no right of property and therefore cannot legally assume control of the aircraft. If the terrorists threatened their life at this point, they could then draw their gun and tell the terrorists to surrender. If the terrorists refused and raised their weapons and/or charged the individual, he or she would then be in the right to shoot to kill. Now, if a person had acquired full knowledge of the terrorists’ ultimate plans, he or she could have drawn their weapon, just made one warning, and then opened fire if they refused to surrender. What about Jewish people, as you asked? Assuming everyone is on neutral ground, if Israeli soldiers are confronted by Palestinians who have weapons and threaten their lives, the Israeli soldiers should tell them to put down their weapons and surrender. If the Palestinians refuse and raise their weapons or charge, the Israeli soldiers have the right to shoot to kill in order to defend themselves. There is no inconsistency with this view of personal self-defense. The main problem is with nation states. Or rather, that people seem to believe that nation states can violate the universal laws that individuals are subject to, for example, with the Iraq war or with “preemptive strikes” in general. Put yourself in the following situation: What would happen to you if you decided that your neighbor (a fictional person for the sake of the argument) was generally considered by the community as a violent sort of person and you believed that he or she was probably going to hurt someone some day. You also believed there was enough circumstantial evidence for you to take action. Legally, what would happen to you if you went to your neighbor’s house and shot him to prevent him from harming anyone in the future? You would be charged with a crime because a "preemptive strike" would be an illegal act. This is also a violation of the Creational laws because your life was not in imminent danger when you used lethal force. Ask yourself this question, what if someone believes you are a threat to them, Daniel—do you want them to have the right of a preemptive strike? Would you want your killer to be subject to punishment under the law, or do you believe he or she should be instantly acquitted since they were justified in their subjective belief that a preemptive strike was necessary? In regards to the Jewish people “giving up their homeland” as you put it, I would first like to ask you if you believe Zionism, or that the land of that area was granted to the Jewish people by the god of the Bible, had anything to do with its selection as the Jewish state? If not, exactly why do you think this land was chosen? Also, do you think this area was the best choice and why or why not? Is there any other land or area that would satisfy you to serve as the Jewish state? And finally, why do you believe a Jewish state is necessary when there is no single Christian state, no single Buddhist state and no single Muslim state? I can see no other explanation for the choosing of Palestine as the Israeli state other than the fact that at least some influential Jewish people believe that a “god” gave them the land centuries ago and it should still belong to them. Here are some links that allude to Zionist or religious intentions in regards to the formation of the state of Israel: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/israel.htm http://www.levitt.com/essays/dh.html http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq240.html Just for the record, I’m not trying to say the Jewish people are the only group with those in positions of power or influence promoting some type of religious doctrine in government. It has happened with America too. In 1890, the convention of one of the major Christian churches in the U.S. stated that “the religious destiny of the world is lodged in the hands of the English speaking people. To the Anglo-Saxon race God seems to have committed the enterprise of the world’s salvation.” James H. King, an influential minister from New York, said the “most important lesson in the history of modern civilization is, that God is using the Anglo-Saxon people to conquer the world for Christ.” There are several other historical references alleging the “need” for the U.S. to conquer the world to spread the Christian religion. And with the Muslims, many of them despise all opposing religions and believe that the Islam must displace all other religions one day as the true faith. But let’s go back to the issue of the state of Israel—to the beginning. On the following link we see a brief overview of the origin of the state of Israel and also the fact that Arabs there were not happy with the United Nation’s partition plan and voted to reject it. http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/education/Israel_Palestine/establishment_Israel.htm Also, if you’ll note the populations at the time, the Arabs were a clear majority. The majority isn’t always right, but common sense will tell you that challenging the majority will result in conflict whether they are right or wrong. To believe that the Jews would have a peaceful welcome in Palestine was wishful thinking on the part of the U.N. This does not justify violent actions on the part of the Arabs, but again, the laws of cause and effect cannot be ignored. The Arabs are unequivocally wrong to pursue violence as a means of retaliation, but it is clear that their rights were violated first. In the late 40’s, the Palestinian people were overruled and their wishes were ignored by the U.N. To put oneself in their shoes, did the citizens in Palestine vote to elect any of the U.N. leaders who made this decision? Daniel, do you believe that a group such as the U.N. or any other political group has to right to make decisions that affect the lives of people if these same people are not allowed to vote them into (or out of) representative positions? Do you believe this is a fair way to decide issues? And if so, would you allow another political body which you or no one else in the U.S. voted for to come in and forcibly relocate you or force you to share land when it was against your desire to do so? I think a lot of people wouldn’t like this. I know I wouldn’t. I would feel like my rights had been violated. The Palestinians warned the world that they would resist with violence if the U.N. plan was enacted, and that is exactly what they did. Were they morally wrong in choosing to initiate violence? Absolutely. However, were the Jewish people wrong to pursue the creation of a state in an area of people who did not desire the presence of such a state, who voted against it, and who had it forced upon them by a political body they did not elect? I definitely think so—and this becomes the cause. For the Jewish people to pursue such a plan and enter an area like this, surrounded by the followers of a religion of violence like Islam, just to in essence “reclaim” land that was allegedly granted to them by a fictitious “god” is either incredibly arrogant or incredibly short-sighted. The real reason the Arabs resisted was not because of hatred of the Jews, but because they saw the encroachment as a repeat of the creation of the Crusader states. Castles built by Europeans in the “holy land” still stand as daily reminders of the holocaust that demolished an early, prosperous Islamic civilization. Some cultures have very long memories (unlike the short attention span of Americans). Two of the three main divisions of the PLO are named after battles fought during the Crusades. What the Jewish people have really done is blunder into a thousand year war between the Christian West and the Islamic world—and now the Muslims are focused on them. In regards to the underlying argument that the Jewish people must establish a state of their own to avoid persecution, you say “The World would rather have Jews not defend themselves but rather walk sheepishly into fake showers.” Dan, who is PREVENTING the Jews from defending themselves in any given situation? Why do you think the Jews did not defend themselves during WW2? Certainly, they had a CHOICE. We all have the choice to defend ourselves in any given situation. We may not even have weapons, but we do not have to “walk sheepishly” into any situation. We can choose to stand and fight, even with our bare hands if that’s all we have. Why do you not blame the Jews for not standing up for themselves earlier in the 20th century, prior to the establishment of the state of Israel? Most importantly, why do you not blame the Jews for turning in their guns during the Nazi weapon confiscations? Possessing guns certainly would have increased the odds of the Jewish people being able to successfully defend themselves. Why do you not hold them responsible for failing to organize as a group (I’m not saying a political state, just an organized effort) and protect themselves prior to 1948? If I and some friends of mine suspect we may be involved in a gunfight in the near future, and we willingly turn our guns over to those we suspect will be shooting at us, and then within a week they do indeed shoot and kill us, how much sympathy do we really deserve? Isn’t it stupid on our part to leave ourselves defenseless in that situation? Speaking of inconsistencies, I find some of your “consistent reasoning” highly suspect. You say you don’t want Jews to “sheepishly” walk to their own destruction, yet you would forbid them and every private citizen to own guns. Also, I’m assuming you still believe it’s ok for soldiers in the military to own and use guns, but not private citizens. Why do you believe soldiers have the right to defend themselves with firearms but private citizens do not? Is this consistent? Why should soldiers have superior rights to other people? Aren’t we all created with equal rights? I also disagree with your allegation that “the world” desires that the Jewish people do not defend themselves. I am part of “the world” and I do not desire that the Jewish people become defenseless. You make it sound like there are only two sides, the Jewish people and 6 billion other people constantly working for their destruction. This is a false belief. If this was truly the case, Dan, the Jewish people would have ceased to exist long ago. What do you think about these links, Daniel? Are they all fabricating human rights violations by the Israelis? The second one is very interesting, as many of the writers are Jewish and live in Israel and yet still criticize the policies of the Israeli government. http://www.hrw.org/wr2k3/mideast5.html http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/contents/issue/tik0207.html Take a look also at the following link: http://www.phrmg.org Do you think all the stories of human rights violations by the Israelis on this site are false? Do you believe these Palestinians have any legitimate grievances? Do you believe that Israeli children are more valuable than the Palestinian children that are dying in the conflict? The Israelis may not have initiated the violence in 1948, but they now seem infected with “war fever” and have been committing atrocities of their own over the years in retaliation for Palestinian attacks. Many Israelis are now filled with bitterness, anger, and a desire for revenge (just to clarify, many Palestinians also suffer from these negative emotions also). Violence begets violence. And the Jewish people are facing an extremely violent adversary in the Arab world. I don’t believe the Arabs will EVER stop fighting, Daniel. Is this a wise war to wage in your opinion? Personally, I would rather fight ANY group other than suicidal religious fanatics. To quote the Chinese general Sun Tzu, “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself, but not the enemy, for every victory you will suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” Also, “He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.” And in his chapter “Variation of Tactics” he goes on to warn “There are armies that must not be attacked, positions that must not be contested, commands of the sovereign that must not be obeyed. There are roads that must not be followed. Towns that must not be besieged.” You should read his book “The Art of War” and ask yourself if the Israelis are following a wise strategy. You ask for criticisms of Arabs—I have many. Concerning Muslims in general, Islam is without question the most barbaric of the major religions, in my opinion. Islam encourages violence against other religions and even against its own members if they disobey its teachings. For more details see: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40473 Osama Bin Laden is a misguided fool. He wrongly sees violence as a legitimate means to effect political change and is devoted to the more fatalistic elements of Islam. As for Yassir Arafat, he is a deceptive fraud and only seeks more social status for himself at the expense of his people. I would love to see him “dethroned”, stripped of all his wealth, and exiled to the South Pole. I personally believe he had more to do with the planning of 9/11 than either Hussein or Bin Laden. But, Dan, I do not judge the Arabs, or any group of people, solely by their leaders. One reason would be that I certainly don’t want someone judging me by the actions of George Bush or Bill Clinton. Many of the Palestinians can’t stand Arafat. Just as many Americans question and condemn the policies of our government. Daniel, overall, you seem to have the attitude that the Jewish people and the state of Israel are above criticism. And you seem to resent anyone who might question the policies of the Israeli government. I noticed your response to Michael’s post about the genocide committed with the slaughter of women, children, and infants by the Israelites/Hebrews in the Old Testament. Rather than address the issue, you immediately pointed the figure at other races and nationalities. That’s like me criticizing Person A for murder and then you respond by saying “But Person B, C, and D murdered too.” Yes, they did, but we’re talking about Person A. Person A committed a reprehensible act. What should the consequences for that act be? Should Person A ever be held responsible? Again, Dan, please read the Henoch prophecies. Namaste, Hunter Danielk Member Post Number: 14 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 07:47 pm:        Hunter, Thank you for replying with a more balanced criticism of both sides. I will consider your point of view with much more respect. Quite frankly its the first post I read that actually does. Israel is not above criticism or the Jewish people but your posts and others have predominantly been against them. The problem with it is not with people who really want to have an honest discussion but for those who would use your arguements to continue anti-Israel and their anti-semitic tone. Your criticisms well maybe founded but unbalanced it aids people like Bin Laden and his followers. Again thank you for a more balanced post. As for the Jewish people being able to defend themselves during WWII please explain the realistic nature of such a proposition. Without your own homeland it would be impossible - really against the German army?. Also, your point on when someone has the right to respond is not realistic if you expect your citizens not to die - If you wait the last minute its too late. Its easy for the Plejarens to say that when they have advanced weapons I just don't see that happening. I have read the Henoch prophecies and more. Doesn't mean I don't question it and its application in our present day world. Obviously every government can be criticized but really I have yet to see a decent way to solve these solutions short of every man's heart changing and that is gonna take a long time. As for Arafat how would you suggest someone negotiate with someone like Arafat? Just curious it seems impossible at this point without taking him out which no doubt would add more criticism to Israel. "The Israelis may not have initiated the violence in 1948, but they now seem infected with “war fever” and have been committing atrocities of their own over the years in retaliation for Palestinian attacks. Many Israelis are now filled with bitterness, anger, and a desire for revenge (just to clarify, many Palestinians also suffer from these negative emotions also). " Unfortunately that is a result of Cause and Effect. Again thanks for your post. Dan Hunter Member Post Number: 88 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 12:59 pm:        Daniel, I'm glad you now seem willing to consider different points of view, but your angst in the matter was really coming from assumptions. It's best never to assume anything. First, I would like to correct one thing about my last post-I said "the laws of cause and effect cannot be ignored”—which is incorrect. They can be ignored. They're ignored every day on planet Earth. What I meant to say was "cannot be cheated" or "cannot be overcome by ignoring them". As far as the Jewish people defending themselves, you're proceeding from a false belief if you think people are only able to defend themselves if they're organized as a nation state. There are numerous examples from history. One that comes to mind would be Maurice Bavaud, the Swiss theology student who tried to assassinate Hitler believing that he was a threat to humanity. One man acting alone got within shooting distance and very nearly killed the Nazi leader before World War 2 began. See the below link for details. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/15/1052885350987.html?oneclick=true It takes courage and determination (and weapons obviously), but small groups can defeat larger groups. Another example would be the Warsaw ghetto uprising. Quote from a concentration camp survivor from the link below “Gun haters always want to forget the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, which is a perfect example of how a ragtag, half starved group of Jews took up 10 handguns and made asses out of the Nazis.” Great interview: http://www.jpfo.org/Survive.htm From the excellent site, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership: http://www.jpfo.org Also, the superiority of the German army was based on several myths. The facts are that Hitler was being routed on the Eastern front after the beginning on 1942. German factories couldn’t meet the demands of the troops with equipment and supplies, as they were running low on almost everything due mainly to the severe Russian winter. Hitler had been so confident of his ability to defeat the Russians he had ordered cutbacks in war production in 1941—this from a supposedly brilliant leader. The following quotes are from “World War 2, The Rest of the Story” by Richard Maybury: “A little known fact is that the Germans actually had two armies. One was the high tech mechanized force you have seen so often in movies. The aircraft, tanks, and artilleries are impressive, no doubt about it. But this force was small. It was only the tip of the spear. The rest of the spear, the main body of the army, was foot soldiers and horses. Yes, horses. When Hitler’s massive invasion force was poised on the Soviet frontier in June 1941, it was at its peak. Lined up ready to strike at Stalin were 3,350 tanks. And 650,000 horses. Hollywood devotes a lot of film to the tanks, but how often have you seen the thousands of horses? Most of the horses were used as substitutes for trucks, but the Germans did have a horse cavalry division that was thrown against the Russians. (In contrast) when the British and Americans invaded Normandy in June 1944, they were fully mechanized, while the German army was still dependent on 1,250,000 horses.” There are many more myths of German superiority. And this is really the same with any army from any country—there are always weaknesses that can be exploited. No one is ever as “invincible” as they appear. It all has to do with how we think. If you believe someone is invincible, they will have a powerful advantage. If you believe you are helpless in a given situation, you will be at a strong disadvantage. But beliefs of course do not always equate to the truth of a situation. We do agree that people must change for true peace to come to this planet. They must change their way of thinking, must cease being so gullible, and must have the courage to maintain their personal responsibility in all matters. And unfortunately, this will take many years for the mass of humanity to achieve. But there are things we can do now, those of us that see the truth, to try and prevent the Henoch prophecies from being fulfilled. The peace meditation is one, and of course spreading the word to all who will listen and participating in politics to work for neutrality, human rights, and freedom. As for Arafat, I'm not recommending that anyone negotiate for anything with the man. He's a lying fraud. Honest negotiation is impossible. The only solution is for the Israelis to dissolve the state of Israel and leave the area. I just don't see any other way for a peaceful resolution. Of course, the U.S. will have to leave the area as well, close its military bases, and remove itself from that part of the world altogether. That would satisfy the Arabs and soon they would forget about the rest of the world and would most likely begin warring against each other, Sunnis, Shiites, Kurds and other ethnic clans. It would of course be best if they could live in peace, but better for them to struggle against each other internally for now than to make war on the rest of the world as detailed in the Henoch prophecies. Namaste, Hunter Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 37 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:27 pm:        Hello: For those who use Hitler`s rise to power and WWII as an excuse in their arguments, they ought to read the following!!! http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html Salome Eric Danielk Member Post Number: 15 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:10 pm:        Hunter, Agree with most of your post but this, "As far as the Jewish people defending themselves, you're proceeding from a false belief if you think people are only able to defend themselves if they're organized as a nation state. There are numerous examples from history. One that comes to mind would be Maurice Bavaud, the Swiss theology student who tried to assassinate Hitler believing that he was a threat to humanity. One man acting alone got within shooting distance and very nearly killed the Nazi leader before World War 2 began. See the below link for details." I have a Polish Jewish cousin who married into the family. Five years old hiding in celler in kitchen as the Gestapo approached their home after neighbors turned them in for being Jewish. Mother had to leave celler with infant brother who was crying as to not give away her and her father. She saw through the cracks in floor the Nazi's shoot her mother in the head and crush her baby brothers head with their boots. My question is how in the world do people in this situation defend themselves? These are the realities of atrocities committed when one is powerless. This is the problem I have with the advice offered - in my opinion unrealistic. As far as the Jewish people defending themselves. Doesn't seem history has made them feel comfortable that they would feel safe leaving that in the hands of the countries they have resided in. Leave Israel, now wouldn't that make Arafat look like a hero? Agreed the Arabs will go on killing each other if Israel wasn't there. Peace. Dan Hunter Member Post Number: 94 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 08:05 am:        Daniel, If you were the general of an army, and your orders were to capture a particular group of people while losing as few of your troops as possible, would you prefer to try to capture a group of people who you knew were all armed with guns and were willing to fight to the death? Or would you prefer to try to capture a group of people who had no guns or other weapons and would surrender if confronted? Against which group do you think you would have the greater chance of success of accomplishing your mission? Also put yourself in the position of having to join your troops and confront the group directly. Again, which group would you prefer to go after? If you were confronted by someone holding a loaded gun, and he threatened your life, at that moment do you think you would have a greater chance of preserving your life if you were holding a gun of your own, or if you had no weapon at all? My point is that an aggressor doesn’t want to fight someone else who is armed because they risk their own life. An aggressor wants power and domination over someone and he can’t have power or domination if he’s dead. If all the Jews would have been well armed during WW2, and would have been willing to fight to the death every time the Nazis tried to enter their communities, I don’t think the holocaust would have ever happened. The Germans wouldn’t have had the courage or the fortitude to follow through with it. But, for the sake of the argument, let’s say the Germans do muster the courage and continue to try to invade the well armed Jewish communities, at least the Jewish people have an opportunity to kill thousands of German soldiers and thereby weaken the axis army, potentially saving themselves and millions of other people. This is a much better course of action than “walking sheepishly” into showers, wouldn’t you say? Your cousin tells a heart-breaking story, and I have to say that the atrocities committed during that time can evoke some powerful feelings, but that’s all the more reason to look at things in a logical way. You say, “These are the realities of atrocities committed when one is powerless.” But no one is ever truly powerless, Daniel. This is a false belief. You say it’s unrealistic and ask “how in the world do people in this situation defend themselves?” Well, I’ve already told you but you don’t seem willing to listen or to answer my questions. Primarily, they must remain armed and not surrender their weapons. If they do, there will be consequences according to the laws of cause and effect. Your cousin’s family needed firearms in order to have a decent chance to protect themselves. Then her mother could have given the Nazi soldiers a surprise when they knocked on the door. If they already had knowledge that Jewish people were being killed by the Nazis, then she would have been in her right to shoot first. In that situation, if you know someone has orders to kill you, and you see them coming, just wait until they knock and then shoot through the door, don’t even open it. Civilians versus soldiers is not an optimal situation. I’ll grant you that. But it’s not unrealistic to think that they have a chance. Desperate times call for desperate measures. The Jewish people would have at least had a fighting chance if they had been armed. As I’ve said before, the problems that created that environment, that caused that latent resentment to rise to the surface, happened much earlier. It should have been stopped then and there because war gives governments more of an excuse to follow a fascist doctrine and do “whatever they believe is necessary.” Governments claim all sorts of emergency powers and suspend rights with far less controversy because many people become highly irrational and willingly trade rights for safety during wartime. But since the situation leading up to WW2 did progress that far, the best course of action would then be to take up arms and get ready to defend yourself because all bets are off at that point... I think your resistance to the basic idea of self-defense comes from your feelings about guns in general. You don’t want to own or use a gun. Rather, you want to cede this basic right to a government and let them hire soldiers to use guns to defend you. This is abdicating your personal responsibility and it’s wrong. You are responsible for your own self-defense, Daniel. True, part of that is voting and participating in government (to try to make sure they first protect your right to own weapons, and have a strong national defense--for defensive purposes ONLY) but there is no guarantee that governments will do the right thing—usually they do just the opposite. When they do the wrong thing, if you won’t take responsibility for your own self-defense at that point, then what? Isn’t that what the Jewish citizens were faced with in Nazi Germany? As to Arafat looking like a hero if the Jewish people leave Israel, so what? Let him continue to revel in his delusions of grandeur. If they kill him, he’ll be a martyr, and the violence will continue unabated. There is simply no other way for a peaceful resolution. Strategically, Arafat has the upper hand. He has guerilla soldiers who are willing to commit suicide in many cases. And he has Arab allies in close proximity. Even though Israel may have technologically superior weapons, it won’t be enough. Just as superior American technology wasn’t enough against the Vietcong. The only way to “win” a guerilla war is to kill everyone—men, women, and children—because you can’t tell the difference between an active enemy and an innocent civilian. And this is what Israel is faced with—a no win scenario. The only way to win is to walk away. If the Jews stay we will only have more of this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3693860.stm And one day possibly this: http://www.rense.com/general57/red.htm The Henoch prophecies clearly show that the main adversaries in WW3 will be the Islamic nations. They’re fighting against Israel, Europe, and America. The choice seems to me to be either (A) the Jewish people leave and America withdraws from the region or (B) they stay and with America spark a war in which 4 billion + people die (including most of the Jewish people), the world economy is wiped out, and the survivors live a harsh, miserable existence for at least 11 years. I know which option I would choose if I lived in Israel…I’d take Option A. Namaste, Hunter Hunter Member Post Number: 99 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 10:01 am:        David, Thanks for the contact information on the confirmation of the CIA ordering the assassination of Kennedy. After I reread your post, I decided to go get the DVD of "JFK" by Oliver Stone. It had been several years since I had seen the movie and, knowing what I know now, quite a few things leapt out at me. The following is from the opening narration: “He inherits a secret war run by the CIA against Cuba. This secret war ends disastrously in “The Bay of Pigs” invasion in 1961 when Kennedy refuses to provide air cover for the exiled Cuban brigade. Kennedy takes public responsibility for the failure but privately claims the CIA lied to him and tried to manipulate him into ordering an all out invasion of Cuba.” “Rumors abound in Washington that JFK has cut a secret deal with Khruschev not to invade Cuba in return for a Russian withdrawal of missiles. Suspicion abounds that Kennedy is soft on Communism. Kennedy also finds himself embroiled in Vietnam.” Kennedy states in a September 2, 1963 interview with Walter Cronkite: “…I don’t think the war can be won out there. In the final analysis, it’s their war. They (Vietnam) are the ones who have to win it or lose it.” “Early that summer, Kennedy speaks of his new vision at the American University in Washington: “What kind of peace do I mean and what kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war.” When I first saw the movie, that last quote fell on deaf ears in part because I didn’t understand the meaning of the term Pax Americana. This is a variation of the term “Pax Romana”. Pax Romana is the belief that peace can be achieved by a strong central authority dominating everyone else as the Roman Empire did. But this is a false belief as no true peace ever existed in the Roman Empire. There were constant insurrections, revolutions, assassinations, feuds, and all manner of violence. In addition, no true freedom ever really existed. There was always some degree of tyranny and corruption in the empire. It definitely looks like Kennedy was actually going to place America in a position of neutrality! That’s what the comment about Vietnam seems to indicate as well as the abandonment of the idea of a “Pax Americana”—meaning America was going to stay out of the affairs of other countries. His failure to fully explain this to the American people and to choose a running mate who shared his same vision were critical mistakes. Of course, I’m sure he never suspected his own “employees” would murder him. But, such groups as the CIA thrive on deception, hate, and violence. If we could have had Kennedy as President in Woodrow Wilson’s place in 1913, what a different world we would live in. That was the critical time for America to choose neutrality, and I believe Kennedy would have done so. Today, with the military industrial complex and the intelligence agencies entrenched more than ever in Washington, it’s going to take a much stronger leader (strength of character)—with strong supporters around him—to bring about true and meaningful change. Namaste, Hunter Edward Member Post Number: 430 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 02:39 am:        Hi All.... I watched a short News Coverage, the last minutes of it, that this coming election in the USA will be MONITORED by International Observers!?? Because of how the way things turned out with the last election which turned out in the favor for Mr.Bush and his Oil Administration. It seems, that because of the many thousands of votes from people like ex-prisoners(because they were PRO Democrats)..etc...were not taken into account, thus were of no value as counting as legal votes. And if their votes were Legal...Mr.Bush would have lost the election!! Thus, the representative that was being aired concerning this..mentioned also that the past US election was Not legal because of the circumstances and how it resulted. Thus, Mr.Bush was/is Not a Legal President!! So now there is to be International Observers to see that there is no False Practices being done...as before. If this is based on Truth, well, finally people are Opening Their EYES!!! And doing something about it!! Can anyone confirm this information?? Edward. Peter_brodowski Member Post Number: 65 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 09:42 am:        i cant confirm any of the above information, but i can confirm that people are waking up. i dont watch t.v. except when i visit family, and still then it's only to check the news. same old garbage, same old reasons and lies and deceptions... but one thing i noticed was all these commercials talkign about 911 and the fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction etc. on another note, what opens people eyes more effectively.... 30 posts of personal opinion or 20 minutes of peace meditation? Edward Member Post Number: 431 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 03:40 am:        Hi Peter & All..... Well, what I just read in the papers was that the USA is not even prepared for any such Big Election Fraud, what so ever! (Good example would be the previous election!) It seems that an independent research-organ of the congress made this clear. There seems to be NO Justice procedure for such actions. But they seem to say that it would be more the voters who would Fraud...that the Mighty In Power!(We all KNOW....what Jeb Bush did in Florida..and others..etc ...and the non-valid votes of the ex-prisoners..etc..) So now their blaming the "Common Man" instead of the Mighty In Power..(See Jeb Bush!!!) So, we Truly KNOW CLEARLY..Whom...Manipulates and Intimidates..the elections....not?? There they go AGAIN...Trying to BLAME..THE PEOPLE!!! BTW: It is also mentioned that if it were up to the world population, Mr.Kerry would make it with ease to the White House! This was from a poll done with some 10 countries. It seems that voters in eight countries which are allies of the USA...would rather see Mr.Bush GO NOW...than to wait for the next coming election! It seems that Israel would surely like Mr.Bush to stay! Thus, the countries concerning the Poll..vote in an average for Mr.Kerry of 57% against Mr.Bush a thin 27%. And in my country, 3/4 would vote for Mr.Kerry. The Majority of us Dutch People..have Enough...of Mr.Bush's War games and would LOVE to live in PEACE. Edward. Edward Member Post Number: 433 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 09:18 am:        Hi All... Don't know if anyone had heard this; but Mr.Bush is going to make a Law that will not stand anyone to make all sorts of comments and remarks against the Jewish Religion. If this is the case, this will fall under - Anti-semitism -. It seems that Florida has the most Richest Jewish population concentrated on the face of this Earth. Thus, in this manner, by making the law come into practice..Mr.Bush hopes to Win the Jewish voters for this coming election! Some way..to want to win an election! Edward. Hunter Member Post Number: 102 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 12:04 pm:        Ed, I haven't heard that. Do you have a source? The law would have to be passed by Congress and would appear to violate the first amendment, therefore it would be unconstitutional and would most likely be struck down by the Supreme Court. If he is proposing such a thing, it is obviously to garner votes, but I haven't seen or heard anything about it and I follow politics very closely here. The latest Zogby poll (which was the most accurate of all the other polls for the past two Presidential elections) has Bush at 47% and Kerry at 45%. So it looks like we're going to have another very close election. If the Democrats could have put up a decent candidate I think they could have easily won, but their party apparatus is so corrupt and archaic this is almost impossible for them. Kerry has several problems, and as I've said before I think he could actually end up being even worse than Bush. Most of the liberals in this country think Clinton was such a great candidate, but the truth is Ross Perot would have won the election if he would not have dropped out as he was ahead in many of the polls with 6 months to go in the election and it was generally acknowledged that he won the debates. The Democrats haven't had a decent candidate since Kennedy in my opinion. Well, I actually kind of liked Jerry Brown, who also ran in '92, but the party insiders did all they could to sabotage him. And don't put anything past the politicians here. They will do anything to win. People see these elections as a sports competition and the closeness of the last election has a lot of people on edge. Both parties have sent out swarms of lawyers who will file suit immediately if they see any voting irregularities--if the vote is close. Namaste, Hunter Edward Member Post Number: 434 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 01:52 am:        Hi Hunter... It was mentioned on the US Presidential Coverage Update...here. It wasn't the first time I heard and read of this. In the beginning of the year I came across such law proposals. Then, to be directed in the Educational sectors. But now, it seems Beyond that.... As we all know, that Florida is a very very crucial state to win the winning votes which decides who will win the election.(If Not Tampered with!) Yes, I understand the procedure a law must take before it comes into action; is the same here. And Yes, it would speak for it's self.. Mr.Bush is making this "Promise" that will be fulfilled after he wins the election(Eat Now...Pay Later). I have even read, somewhere...that there may even be a law such as it..concerning Christianity. And ofcourse, it must first pass the mentioned procedures. So, something to keep an eye on.... Yes, I am aware of the Head To Head..percentages. Its getting very very interesting. Some 70% of our government favour Mr.Kerry. The rest if for Mr.Bush. Edward. Hunter Member Post Number: 103 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 04:07 pm:        Ed, Are you familiar with a Dutch website that had photographs of some of the birth defects caused by the depleted Uranium shells used by the U.S. in the first Gulf War? Someone on another political forum posted that link in 1999. I recently became interested in it again last year with all the events leading up to the new Iraq War but I was never able to find it. It may have been "taken down". Hunter David_chance Member Post Number: 30 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 10:26 am:        For Hunter, the website you refered to about DU: http://www.web-light.nl/VISIE/extremedeformities.html Hunter Member Post Number: 104 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 12:23 pm:        David, Yes, that's it. These are the kind of images you never want to see, however we all need to see the truth. Strange coincidence, but an article with a link to it was posted today on one of the newsites I read often. For a preliminary article with more information see: http://thewandererpress.com/a10-28-2004.htm Edward Member Post Number: 435 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 02:33 am:        Hi Hunter... No I am not aware of your mentioned website. But I checked it out just now. But I've seen many images on documentaries of the babies/Bodies. There seems to be a welknown female Iraqi physician trying to expose all these facts to the world, but it seems that she is being kept from doing this. She has Albums Full of images of every child she examined. These Facts should be examined by the Bush Oil Administration! By of course, to them, this is something they will Not Acknowledge! Or there is NO proof. Eventhough, the US Troops that have also been contaminated, are not even being taken serious. Edward. Phaethonsfire Moderator Post Number: 320 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 02:43 am:        Today's elections This post is solely my own personal point of view. Today its the second of November, will it be four more years of G.W.Bush or will it be Kerry? Who knows? I feel that if Bush will be re-elected it will be catastrophic for the USA and for the world as a whole, I think that if GWB would be re-elected he would feel strengthend in his conquest to invade other nations and territories. Like a similar thread on the German forum from Hans, I do think that GWB could lead the world in either a world fire or world war. The voting system in the USA is hopelessly obsolete, the American people does not vote directly for its own president, but via a aristocratic layer, the socalled electoral votes, if memory serves me well, which was instated in 1804 with the ratification of the 12th admendment. This system has its origin in the Roman empire 2000 years ago... While the electoral college system violates the one-person, one-vote principle of democracy, it gives electors disproportionate power. Electors, in general, are not bound to cast their vote in accordance with the popular vote results in their state. My guess is if GWB is re-elected that the following things could happen: - Bigger gap between the poor, low income, midclass and the "have and have-mores" - Bigger racial gap. - Even larger deficite - Vietnam like war situation in Iraq - Higher realistic threat of terrorist attacks on US soil/properity and people. - Reinstatement of the draft (even when Bush said he wouldnt do that, people should remember words of his father G. Bush, "no new taxes" and he DID raise taxes" - Even a more severe alienation of friendly nations, causing division and opposition, there are even voices here in Europe by mainly the French and the German to create an European Army, like a counterpart of the American Army. History has proven that even the closest friendships can turn into hostility. - More enviromental pollution. - Increasing number of uninsured people (more then 40,000,000 people in the USA are inadequately or not insured at all) - Aggression against socalled 'axis-of-evil' nations. This could be very well the prelude to the predicted upcoming cival wars in the USA and World war / World Fire, who knows? just speculation. Feel free to post any responses. Jakobjn Saalome gam naan ben uurda, gan njjber asaala hesporoona! Janette New member Post Number: 2 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 05:26 am:        Dear Jakobjn I think and feel excatly same about this. Bush and his government is great danger to this planet. I have been thinking and thinking what I could do but I afraid that I can´t do anything for this situation Love & Peace, Janette Michael Member Post Number: 444 Registered: 10-2000 Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 07:27 am:        Jakobjn, While I have to agree with you I think the only difference between Bush and Kerry is that with Bush we will rush faster into these terrible things. It seems to me that the deeper problem is what was said in the Henoch Prophecies, i.e. American policies drive and create these problems and the powers behind both parties and candidates may well be very much the same. That any one person can vote for Bush, let alone millions, absolutely amazes me. Michael Horn George Member Post Number: 54 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 01:14 pm:        Hi Jakob, I think we should be more proactive in that regard in the future. How about asking the Big Three(Billy, Ptaah, Quetzal)to come up with some simple ingenious plan that would list root causes of why things happen like terrorism and then give us simple easy to understand point by point plan/method on how to successfuly deal with that. Somthing that we can present to our elected officials that they would be able to easly and cost effectively work into our political and economic structure? Regards George Michael_d Member Post Number: 89 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 04:23 pm:        The electoral college voting system in America served a purpose during the formation of the country by offering the states with small populations a disproportionately greater influence in electing the President. Otherwise these states would have resisted joining the Union. Today this disproportionately greater influence held by the small states is the only factor that causes the Presidential candidates to pay any attention to them and their concerns. If the President was elected on the basis of a popular vote, all the attention would go to the large cities and states. The concerns of people in the rural areas and states would be irrelevant. Janette New member Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 09:00 am:        George We people have to do things by ourselves because they can´t do things for us. Most of American people are blind about what their government is doing. Things will get better when they have opened their eyes. Love & Peace, Janette Lonnie Member Post Number: 60 Registered: 12-1999 Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 01:00 pm:        Hi Jacob, There was a greater turnout for this election than at any time in history. More and more young people voted because they want change. It's really amazing that the result favored Bush. I am very sceptical of this. Why would more people who want change vote for Bush? The evidence shows that there has been MASSIVE voter fraud committed during this election, similar or worsh than in 2000. Many people have complained that when they voted for Kerry, the vote went in for Bush. I think that Diebold, the company that makes the voting machines, won the election. This company is owned by people that support Bush and his cohorts. The people of America have become blind slaves. This is unfortunate. I love my homeland, but I cannot be proud of this situation. Positive change is sorely needed in this country, or else, the anceint prophecies may be fulfilled. I asked Billy, before Bush attacked Iraq, about how we can get these people out of office and he said we need to create a good voting system. But before we can do so the people must change their thinking. We have a long way to go. It is up to us to deal with this situation by creating peace from WITHIN. Just as you would deal with CANCER from within, in order to truly be cured. Regards, Lonnie Scott Moderator Post Number: 566 Registered: 07-2000 Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 01:56 pm:        Hi Lonnie, I am also very skeptical about the vote count, and how it was calculated. I remember hearing Dick Cheney mention he thought the results would be 51% Bush and 48% Kerry. This made me think that something was up. How could a reliable and accountable voting system be set in place, considering the vested interests who are in control of this country? If there was any Government involvement in the WTC tragedy, nothing would surprise me at this point including voter fraud. Salome Scott Torrent Member Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 03:19 pm:        Karma... Americans chose the same president again who brought enormous pain and fear to the world, and they will pay for their idiotic choice by incurring more terrorism attacks and face a steepening isolation from the rest of the world. Very simple to presume and too dreadful to accept it. Hunter Member Post Number: 106 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 04:16 pm:        Well, it looks like Bush is the winner. All hail the emperor… I think a lot of people will feel disappointment, as Bush has been a terrible President, but the truth of the matter is that Kerry would probably have been worse overall. If you’re electing a Republican or Democrat, it’s basically like exchanging one corrupt Roman Emperor for another corrupt Roman Emperor. We desperately need a fundamental change of U.S. foreign policy and neither of the two major parties is offering that. What amazes me is the lack of support for a third political party. THAT amazes me, but the fact that Bush was re-elected doesn’t really surprise me. If you look at a few factors it becomes pretty clear. Number one, Bush got a higher percentage of female voters than any of his Republican predecessors, and I’ll tell you why. There are two women I work with that are perfect examples. Both are young and have NEVER voted before, but they registered this time and voted for Bush because they are AFRAID of terrorists and they want someone to protect them. FEAR is causing many people, women in particular to gravitate towards Bush. These people have NO understanding whatsoever of what America has been doing overseas, through the CIA or other covert military ops. They believe that we were attacked for no reason and that the terrorists are simply evil and hate us for no reason. They view the world in very simple terms—us versus them, good guys versus bad guys, and they revere authority figures. They see themselves as good people and since they have this simplistic view of the world, they see Bush as a good person because he is doing what they would do according to their own understanding (rather, lack of) and beliefs. To them, he is retaliating against the evil force of terrorism and protecting their lives—therefore they support him. I don’t believe there was massive voter fraud as Lonnie suggests. It’s possible that we could see clear evidence later on, but I think most of it is going to be rumors and speculation. There was one neighboring county here that showed interviews with women crying because the polling place in their county ran out of ballots and they were crying and saying “we can’t vote for Bush now. What a sad day this is…” A lot of people want Bush because of their fear. The Republicans don’t have to rig anything. They have a lot of support in this country. Regardless, if the Republicans were going to “rig the system”, the more strategic thing to do would be to rig some of the larger states won by small margins by Gore in 2000, such as Pennsylvania or Michigan, to secure an electoral victory without these close finishes. Yet, we’ll still see a relatively close electoral finish this year. I’ve read many articles about Bush and various conspiracy theories, but in the end I really believe that Bush’s main problem isn’t that he’s secretly malevolent, but just that he’s not all that bright. I truly think that he believes he is doing the right thing by going after the terrorists and starting pre-emptive wars, but of course this false belief will not override the laws of cause and effect. Another reason for the Bush/Republican victory was the fact that many people cited moral values (didn’t know promoting war was a moral value?) as the primary reason for their vote. They of course weren’t speaking about war but about homosexual marriage (Bush opposed it, Kerry supported it). We know homosexual marriage is also wrong according to the laws of Creation so the Republicans are right on this issue. The majority of people also don’t favor unlimited abortion, which Bush and the Republicans oppose while John Kerry and the Democrats support a very liberal abortion policy. By stating life “begins” at conception, the Republicans are closer to the Plejaren view than the Democrats. The Republicans are only 21 days off the mark, while the Democrats are 8 months and 10 days off the mark, with their misunderstanding resulting in millions of murders every year. (And yet how ironic is it that many alleged Christians fervently oppose abortion yet apparently have no problem supporting war in which innocent women and children are killed?) To address a few of Jakob’s points—I really don’t think Bush’s policies are leading to a greater gap between the rich and the poor. What is causing this gap are the fiat currency, federal reserve, and banking policies—and neither political party will address those issues. Those are the root causes. For a more thorough discussion see: http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/chap9.html Bush’s tax cuts will not keep people poorer. Even with this unbalanced system, a poor person can become rich (materially abundant) more easily in America than in any other country in the world. And Bush’s tax policies make this upward mobility easier, not more difficult. In the final equation, taxation is theft and therefore I have no problem with any tax cuts, the more the better as I see it. As for more of a “racial gap”, I don’t really think this is the case either. Bush has broad support among Hispanics, now the largest minority group in the U.S., and it looks like he will double his support among African American voters. Racism exists, but there is not widespread unrest by any means. Not that it couldn’t worsen under severe economic conditions, and this may inevitably happen. But, for right now, I would say things are stable. I would also say that Bush’s environmental policies are not as bad as the leftist media claims. Last year, there was an issue with a pesticide company in Mississippi (close to where I live) generating a lot of toxic waste into the air. I wrote to the Environmental Protection Agency, as did a few other people, and we were taken very seriously and the government came in and forced the company to either severely reduce its emissions or close down that particular plant. So, from what I’ve seen personally, the EPA under the Bush administration looks to be taking citizen complaints very seriously and enforcing the environmental laws on the books. (Keep in mind the company in question was also a petroleum company—they were manufacturing pesticides as a smaller endeavor.) As for the health insurance issue, in reality it’s government involvement in the marketplace that has created artificially high prices for medical procedures that would otherwise be affordable. For a good introduction to how this has happened see: http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/chap5.html Also, the root causes of disease are not being addressed by the allopathic system. Most insurance companies will not cover nutrition therapy, homeopathy, acupuncture, or any other type of alternative, holistic therapy—many of which are the best answer for long term, degenerative diseases. And today’s system actually promotes disease. How? The answer can be found if we look at the ancient Chinese medical system. In that system, doctors were paid on modest monthly retainers (insurance). If you became sick, you stopped paying the retainer fees until the doctor restored your health. The financial incentive in that system was for wellness. In today’s system, you only pay a doctor if you become ill so the financial incentive is for disease. Not very wise. Michael D makes a good point about the original intent of the electoral system—which was to protect the smaller states from being overshadowed by areas with greater population. I don’t think pure democracy is necessarily a good thing. Democracy, as we practice it, with small majorities determining social policy, seems to be little more than mob rule. But look at the wisdom of the Plejarens—yes they have democracy—but in their system the right of dissent is respected since they require a very high percentage of people to agree (in some cases unanimous vote). Now apply that to our current system—what if the U.S. Constitution had been written to originally include a Neutrality amendment with only a unanimous vote of the Congress followed by a unanimous vote by all the citizens in a national referendum. As I see it, this would make war virtually impossible for governments to wage—it would definitely make pre-emptive strikes an impossibility. And the main issue overall is the foreign policy and neither Bush nor Kerry had any plans to change this, which is why I voted for neither of them. George, for a good understanding of what’s wrong with our foreign policy and what we need to do to change see Chapters 18, 19 and 20 on the following link: http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/rutoc.html We all know there is still a great danger. Bush is misguided in many ways and will continue to pursue policies which will only increase threats of violence against the U.S. I want to say to everybody, please put this election out of your minds and keep working to make the world a more peaceful place. Everyone—even people in other countries--should write to President Bush (I think it’s president@whitehouse.gov) and the Congressional leaders and ask them to declare neutrality and to please stop waging wars which result in the death of innocent people. Be reasonable and polite and just get your point across. The letter doesn’t have to be long—that’s not the point. The point is to make our voices heard, to show them that people want true change, and we’ve got to “do the legwork” ourselves. Start writing newspapers, magazines, internet forums etc. with letters recommending U.S. neutrality. Contribute as much as you can to a third political party or political action groups supporting neutrality. And keep participating in the peace meditation. Those of us here have to do it. Very few people recognize the danger. Namaste, Hunter Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 42 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 06:29 pm:        Hello: Democrats have sent thousands of observers in voting polls. Micheal Moore was asking anyone with videocams to film the voting offices, to check voting polls in order to avoid any fraud or suspicious act. It is unfortunate but that the results are most probably the result of the majority of the voters, not a fraud. A decision in which the majority of the americans bears responsibility. They will bear the responsibility of consequences of the action of their government over the next years. Unfortunately they will need WWIII to learn from their mistake. (I am very sad to write this b.t.w.) Next 2 months are critical for the future ot his world. Watch Sharon, Arafat, Bush and Musharraf in particular(4 heads of state..?..). Salome Eric Dplotmach Member Post Number: 13 Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 09:28 pm:        Eventhough I am very sad because of this election, something tells me that this forum and these FIGU people are my friends towards the future. The future looks grim, and everythings says to me; this is going to hell! Im glad that the next years (thousands) belong to the true "universal-geniouses", and no matter what war this ape Bush and the pig Sharon is going to be guilty of, we will still have LOGIC. The Great intelligence wants to let us reason and become its friends, AND SO BE IT! Dplot. Michael_d Member Post Number: 90 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 09:33 pm:        I believe Albert Einstein is credited with the following definition of insanity: "Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." Perhaps that defines the American voting public. Edward Member Post Number: 436 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 01:49 am:        Hi All.... Yes, Jacob has made many things very clear. And of course, I would surely be behind Lonnie's posting more than 1000%!!! With all of todays High-Tech surely there are/is many ways for a "Hidden" Government-Layer to do it's Sneaky practices without the US mass and the World having knowledge of this. The Keyword here is "TAMPER". Just like a Gamble-machine, which can be Set...to make sure that the player can only win Sooo...much money and not more! Thus, be adjusted to its limitations. Who knows for sure that those voter-machines are True machines that gave the True voter's results? Or, they are just a New Version of a future Gamble-machine! Mr.Bush speaks of Terrorists "Hijacking and taking Hostage", well, he and his Co have done the same this time with the elections and the American People as he has "Hijacked and taken Hostage" Iraq and it's Oil and it's People. Well, his words are a Direct Reflection of his Own Deeds and Practices. Thus, a man that speaks with "CON-troversy". The saying that would apply here would be: "The One whom says it...Is that Him self!" Well, if Big Brother is watching You/Us, surely.. he's got the power to make such Criminal practices come into manifestation! We just have to face the facts; we live in times that Big Brother IS...Watching every Step we make! And Big Brother will be governed by Tyrants with the Minds and Consciences of Ill Degenerated Consciousness', which, represents The Pinnacle Of Ignorance and Stupidity; whom are Blinder...than any Blind man can ever be. Big Brother is Based on the processing of "Hijacking and taking Hostage" All Life-Forms and to Conquer their existence, to maintain power. How else could this be...... Thank Creation and many Supreme and Higher Evolved Beings for giving us the possibility for such a High Evolved Spirit Form which is housed within the human body of one named Eduard Albert Meier, know to us as "Billy", for preparing us for the many events to come in our future, thus, we are prepared for these coming manifestations and make the True Spiritual Teachings and the Laws Of Nature and Creation which Billy has brought to us anew...be made known to All Mankind. THANK YOU BILLY!! May Creation Guide Man Through his Hard Times...yet to enter his Evolving Future. Peace Be With All Creatures Of Creation.... Edward. George Member Post Number: 55 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 07:47 am:        Hello all, This is excerpt from Contact 251 which I think you read already. ‘….One religion will initiate large-scale war activities at that time which results in the development and utilization of another new, dangerous weapon that will be capable of changing the climate, a so-called climate weapon. However, as bad as they may seem, these periods are not as unstable as that of 1995, a year when new discoveries on Mars are possible; and a year when the seeds of a new ideology are sewn that sets it apart from traditional religions. 1995 will also be a year when an unknown, powerful male individual begins to come into prominence who spellbinds the world and gathers followers around him in much the same rat-catching manner as the Pied Piper of Hamelin. For this reason, in one prophecy, he is called the rat-catcher….’ Heavy hint here...think about the Tuesday's Election. Hmmmm.... I wonder who would be The Pied Piper of Hamelin? Regards George Michael_d Member Post Number: 91 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:00 am:        Pied Piper of Hamelin = Osama bin Laden Hunter Member Post Number: 107 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 01:02 pm:        Michael_d wrote: "I believe Albert Einstein is credited with the following definition of insanity: "Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." Perhaps that defines the American voting public." That definitely defines voting for Democrats and Republicans. To fundamentally change foreign policy you're either going to have to start having large public protests or you're going to have to elect a third party candidate. The problem is that most Americans are ignorant of what their government is doing overseas and they see the 9/11 attack as unprovoked, so most see no reason to protest. Kerry said he was just going to fight the war "a better way"--whatever that means. If he had been elected, it would have been no true cause for celebration, as it only delays a potential World War 3. A lot of people just want Bush gone because of distaste for the man, which I can understand, but Kerry, to me, is just as distasteful. And, besides, I don't want to just put a band aid on the foreign policy problem. I'm looking for a long term solution. Bush is definitely a victim to the trappings of political power in regards to using force around the world, but we also have to keep in mind that none of this happens if the Saudis who flew the planes into the Twin Towers on 9/11 forgot about violent reprisals and focused on nonviolent resistance instead. Without 9/11 happening, there would have been no way Bush could have invaded Iraq. I think nonviolent resistance would definitely work well against the U.S. War Empire because they like to be seen as the good guys. But it would still not be a "quick fix", since you're going to have a potential problem with news reaching the American public, who would ultimately have to put the heat on their elected officials. Sleestak New member Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 11:16 pm:        I have been following this discussion for a while now. And having read the Henock prophecies, along with “Bush and Cohorts, and the other Figu pages, I think I would like to voice my opinion. I understand the truth delivered by Billy Meier has to be harsh in language, to stimulate recognition and correction. One hopes that people look at the larger Meier material with a neutral mind, and realize that they are not being personally attacked, but rather awakened with a large dose of caffeine. But is this happening here on this discussion link? It always amazes me that there are people out there that immediately assume dirty pool when things don’t go as expected. Really, vote count fraud conspiracy? Let’s watch re-runs of the X-files for clues. The scrutiny and lawyers on both sides was large in presence and cost this time. Besides, both men worked their tails off meeting with the country and the news. George Bush earned this election. And Kerry didn’t do half bad. So do I agree and support Bush? Not on everything, but I still see good in this man and the United States of America and the rest of the world. We have a future if we let the healing begin, and recognize that everybody has both faults AND strengths. And move forward. Michael Moore was quick to point out the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq was about oil interests. And some are quick to say that they oppose this, yet enjoy and benefit from a “modern” lifestyle of cheap oil. Fact is, oil is a factor in every product and service that you buy, and therefore your lifestyle, not to mention survival. To give up oil would mean going back to the Stone Age. I can see some of you here now moving out to live under trees, gathering your own harvested food, self-sufficient in cloths woven from materials in your tree world, tying rocks together with strings to reach the Internet to engage in this forum. Anything more advanced would require an oil interest. The whole world is far from perfect, yet America still stands as a leader on our mistake prone planet. Aliens -- Give some credit where credit is due, even if we are all only primitive ‘apes’ with clubs, knives and spears. After all, American is just a melting pot of all the beautiful colors and races of people from the entire globe, pushing to keep this planet moving forward. So a foreigner pointing a finger at America is really just pointing a finger at himself. America may be flawed, but it is not on an Empire Earth quest. Parallel to the morally weaker oil issue, America wants to bring peace and stability to Iraq, along with democracy. America has no intention of taking over sovereign nations. If only the Iraqi people could see the benefit of opportunity and a better lifestyle due to a freer business environment that better cooperates with the international community. Everybody wins. Much could be said to the Iraqi people to lay down their arms and take personal responsibility to move forward in a new direction, so the world can move closer to peace and stability. Maybe Billy Meier should publish a “Iraqi Insurgents and Cohorts” paper….to even out the score? Lonnie Member Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-1999 Posted on Friday, November 05, 2004 - 02:23 pm:        If anyone wants to know what REALLY happened during this election as well as events leading up to it, read this website: www.whatreallyhappened.com Good website! LM Edward Member Post Number: 437 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 02:16 am:        Hi Lonnie.... Yes, very very good site and it's links! Well, it speaks all for its self...I would say. I've come across the same segments while watching the News Coverage here; on my own television stations as well as others like the BBC, Belgian TV, Germany and a few others. Thus, these facts of "FRAUD" were Truly Noticeable. What surprises me was: why did Mr.Kerry NOT...take further steps when it was proposed to him concerning the malfunctions of the voter-machines, and, that the True counted votes were not sure and reliable? I dislike to bring up his "Flip-Flopping", but, sorry Mr.Kerry, he should have gone into this matter with ALL his available RESOURCES! Now he is only "GIVING IN" to the Bush Oil Administration...alas to say. Pity to say: He Blew His One And Only Chance! He should have had some very good Advisers backing him up in this predicament. Now we're back into another 4 years in THE HELL HOLE! Making the "Puppet" Iraqi government fulfill it self on our World Stage...and Mr.Bush pulling as much Strings as he can! And now, it seems Fidel Castro is the next one to be taken down, as he promised the Cuban voters whom would vote for him; which was even made known in the beginning of this year. Well, Billy speaks ALL WORDS OF TRUTH in his Bulletins concerning Mr.Bush and his carving for World Domination and Power which is triggered by his "Megalomaniac" Traits! What is one lost of life to him? NOTHING, as long as its Far From His Bed...he feels himself as being "Untouchable". Some brave man he is; he does not even have the GUTS to personally attend his own forces' burials when they are put into US grounds! I guess he dare not look DEATH right in the EYES..that is Caused by his OWN Dictatorial Deeds. Well, this is the man the Republicans have voted for and with their Fraud-Voter machines and makers. Now we have to await another 4 years..alas(if we're Lucky!?). If the Republicans win once again, surely...this Confirms that Big Brother is Truly..Pulling ALL The Strings! Thus, One will permanently vote with the new version of the Gamble-machine. Edward. George Member Post Number: 56 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 08:48 am:        Hi Mike do you know that for sure? If you do who told you? Message of terror by Osama bin Laden does not sound to me like a song of enchantement(or sweet promises).1995 was a year when Evangelicals were mustering their forces to defeat Clinton. That attemtp failed and Clinton was president from 1996 to 2000. Regards George. Hunter Member Post Number: 108 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 12:59 pm:        On the issue of vote fraud—is it possible? Yes, sure, it’s possible. Lonnie, I looked over that website briefly and I don’t doubt that there are some instances of a few thousand votes here and there being either discarded or added by dishonest county workers sympathetic to their political parties, but I haven’t seen enough evidence yet to prove that this was so massive and large scale that the election was won by Bush based purely on vote fraud. I don’t think it’s a logical conclusion. If they’ve rigged the last two elections, then why don’t the Republicans just rig them all? And why even have close elections if you’re going to go to the trouble of rigging them? People tend to pay attention more during close elections. Therefore shouldn’t you rig a landslide victory to prevent this close scrutiny? And why didn’t Bush’s father rig his second election instead of allowing himself to be defeated by Clinton? That doesn’t fit the pattern. If you look at American politics in the last 30 years, Democrat Presidents haven’t been too popular. Only two have won election—Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton—both from the South. It was critical that they were able to capture a few southern states to pry those electoral votes away from the Republicans. Carter was elected on the heels of the Nixon scandal and lost his re-election bid soundly. Clinton was elected during a pronounced recession and never captured a majority of the vote in either of his victories. Control of the Congress was also lost under Clinton—the first time Democrats had lost control in over 40 years—and they have not gained it back since. My point is, Democrats don’t seem to have a lot of popular support in this country if you look at the election statistics. The facts speak for themselves. People say Clinton was very popular, but he never won with more than a plurality of the vote, and Ross Perot was leading in the first election and would have won in my opinion had he not dropped out of the race. Clinton was reeling from various scandals but ultimately won because of the poor shape of the economy. The economy is what beat Bush number 1, as his approval ratings were over 90% a year before the election, right before the recession started. So only two Democrats have been elected President in the past 35 years, and it took a major government scandal and severe recession to get them elected. And you guys are telling me that Republicans have to rig elections because the majority of people here really don’t want them? That’s simply not a logical conclusion. Also, note, in the 35 or so years before Richard Nixon’s election, the Democrats won every Presidential election except one. Politics tend to flow in cycles. The Republicans are in a winning cycle right now. They don’t need to risk large-scale vote fraud. The truth of the matter is that the mainstream media would love to see Bush humiliated. They despise the man. Dan Rather was broadcasting forged documents in an attempt to derail Bush’s re-election, but it backfired. If they had credible evidence of voting fraud they would plaster it all over the TV screens. If Michael Moore had captured credible footage of any vote fraud, it would have been all over TV. According to surveys, approximately 90% of journalists vote for the Democrat candidate in national elections. They do not like the Republicans and will pounce on ANY opportunity to smear them in the public arena. If they had credible evidence of vote fraud, they’d use it. I live in one of the red states that voted for Bush, so I constantly hear from people who support Bush. A lot of people here really like the guy and wanted to see him re-elected. They truly believe terrorism just sprang up out of nowhere and could destroy the U.S. unless Bush takes action. They believe that Saddam could have become the next Hitler and they talked very fearfully and were concerned whenever they mentioned him. Many breathed a sigh of relief when he was caught. (I still hear concern from some people who think that he will be released on a legal technicality or will escape and try to start another war.) FEAR, FEAR, FEAR. They’re of course very wrong about all of this, but I’m just telling you what I’m seeing and hearing with my own eyes and ears. Bush wouldn’t have to rig ANYTHING to win in this state. Again, I saw the replay of the ladies crying on TV—just bawling their eyes out because they thought they wouldn’t get ballots in time so they could vote for Bush. Crazy on their part, but they were completely serious. Just read the articles on vote fraud over at rense.com as well. Seem to be tainted with bias. I wonder if the authors investigated any alleged vote fraud under Clinton? Someone that we know lied constantly and would say or do anything to get elected. It seems like their articles suggest vote fraud and deception could only happen under Republicans, which is illogical and clearly false. I guess Bob Dole missed the secret training sessions on how to rig an election… If the Republicans rig all the elections, why didn’t they rig the 1996 election? Clinton was an incumbent leading in all the polls and they had to see he was going to be hard to beat, and the rightwing absolutely despised him. So why did the Republicans lose? If the Plejarens have actually monitored our elections and have told Billy that there’s a danger, then I would definitely listen to what they have to say about the matter. And I will say that I could be wrong about all of this, but I truly think that the greatest danger is the political propaganda contributing to people’s false beliefs rather than actual vote fraud. Also to note, the political polls showed a very close election with Bush ahead in many polls. Are all the political polls being manipulated as well? Having said all that, it is terrible that Bush has been re-elected, but Kerry would have honestly been no better. To want Kerry over Bush is like saying “Hey, I really hope Mussolini beats Hitler in the next election—Hitler is terrible—we’ll be a lot better off if we can elect Mussolini.” It’s not logical. To have this mindset of “either or” when there are several viable third party candidates on the ballot is not going to bring true change. And, again, Billy has said the election of Kerry would only DELAY a potential World War 3. Kerry would not have stopped it. He’s a prestige seeker and believes in American military dominance—a bad combination. Namaste, Hunter Michael_d Member Post Number: 93 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 08:10 pm:        Dear Moderator, please substitute the below post for the one on this topic I submitted earlier. Thanks! Hello George, Nothing's for certain. It's possible for someone else to be the Pied Piper of Hamelin. It comes down to how you interpret the story and the symbolism you choose to fit into or draw out of the story. Here's how I read it. The USA is symbolized by the town fathers that hired the Pied Piper (Osama) to drive the rats (Communists) out of land they coveted (Afghanistan). After the Pied Piper (Osama) accomplished his goal, the town fathers (USA) reneged on his payment. The Pied Piper (Osama) then retaliated by leading the children (military troops) of the town fathers (USA) into the side of a mountain (Middle East) from which they never return. Although George W. Bush began his first term as Texas governor in 1995, I think the symbolism fits better with Osama as the main character. I also believe I read somewhere on the FIGU discussion forum that the character was an Islamic fundamentalist. Sleestak New member Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 08:45 pm:        Hello Edward, I have followed your postings over the while, and find you a very kind hearted person. The regulars on this forum seem to share this same frame, along with your closer lucky star friends. But what kind of comment is, “Now we’re back into another 4 years in THE HELL HOLE!”? What politically? How has your life and the community around you been like a “HELL HOLE”? I assume you are not a troop soldier fighting in Iraq? But you are here on the Net with a plastic poly computer to be posting here; this puts you at the closer top of the Earth human food chain. Probably got a roof over your head, probably electro generated heat, cloths on your back… any fashion poly names made in China? Well-fed right? Just got a bunch of groceries from the store on the way to the gas station, no doubt. Life is good, right? So where is your Hell Hole? You said, “…Mr. Bush and his carving for World Domination…” What? This statement is complete nonsense. What? War vs. NO War? Old news. Remarks like this do not do any good for the Iraqi people, no good to the American people, and are bad for the rest of the International community. The US soldier wants to go home! The Iraqi people have got to choose peace. The Iraqi people have got to take responsibility and get their own country’s strings going. The US soldier is doing his best (just another kind hearted person like lucky you and me) to do a job and not get killed in the same process not to injure ANY civilian...partly so that some poorer people can have opportunity and you can go on living in your hole. Where is the domination? David_chance Member Post Number: 31 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2004 - 10:08 pm:        "Evidence Mounts That The Vote Was Hacked" www.commondreams.org/views04/1106-30.htm Memo00 Member Post Number: 87 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 04:48 pm:        hi sleestak 1-the fact that we all use products and energy that are derived from oil, does NOT give the right to anybody to slaughter thousands of innocent people to gain control over it with all the money that is wasted everyday in weapons and in stupid wars, im sure that new cheaper and cleaner energy sources could be found and even if oil was more abundant, it must be found a new energy source, because its extraction produces among many other things earthquakes, + the increasing enviromental pollution and all the terrible catastrophes asociated with it 2-even if Saddam was terrible, today Iraqi people are very much worse, and things are not going to change magically from one day to the other, terrorism is increasing everyday thanks to the incredibly stupid actions of the US president, and all the people that support him think about this: what would you do if one day your house is bombed, and your family is murdered, what would you do if a foreign army invades your country just to take control of the natural resources, what would you do if everyday you see innocent childs slaughtered in the name of "freedom" . . . if thats not "domination", tell me what it is??? it is an absolute idiocy to invade a country and to await for its people to say: "thank you Mr. soldier for freeing us" "thank you for killing my wife and my sons" "thank you for destroying my country" people will seek revenge a fire cannot be stopped by pouring gasoline in it, that is insane!!!! 3- maybe you are not well informed but if this madness is not stopped, in a pair of years, a 3rd world war could begin, 2/3 of humanity would die and the US would be completely destroyed among many other terrible things. . . Sleestak New member Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 07:15 am:        1-the fact that we all use products and energy that are derived from oil, does NOT give the right to anybody to slaughter thousands of innocent people to gain control over it Hello Memo00, Yes very true. However, my point is that everybody who buys oil has indirectly supported this war. People may not have voted for bush with a ballot, but they have voted with their pocket books. with all the money that is wasted everyday in weapons and in stupid wars, im sure that new cheaper and cleaner energy sources could be found Yes I am hopeful too. All we need is time…. 2-even if Saddam was terrible, today Iraqi people are very much worse, and things are not going to change magically from one day to the other, terrorism is increasing everyday thanks to the incredibly stupid actions of the US president, and all the people that support him Yes change does not happen magically. It is up to people (on all sides) to create change…to create a change for peace not for further bloodshed. think about this: what would you do if one day your house is bombed, and your family is murdered, what would you do if a foreign army invades your country just to take control of the natural resources, what would you do if everyday you see innocent childs slaughtered in the name of "freedom" . . . The natural resources belong to the Iraqi people; the US is not trying to take them away. This is a big misunderstanding. if thats not "domination", tell me what it is??? Welcome to the planet of the apes. That includes me and you, and everybody else. it is an absolute idiocy to invade a country and to await for its people to say: "thank you Mr. soldier for freeing us" "thank you for killing my wife and my sons" "thank you for destroying my country" people will seek revenge a fire cannot be stopped by pouring gasoline in it, that is insane!!!! Yes I agree. This is where I agree with Kerry’s, “rush to go to war without a plan to win the peace.” 3- maybe you are not well informed but if this madness is not stopped, in a pair of years, a 3rd world war could begin, 2/3 of humanity would die and the US would be completely destroyed among many other terrible things. . . It is not just up to the Americans, but also the Iraqi people, and the rest of the world to neutralize this threat. Michael_d Member Post Number: 95 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 11:30 am:        The USA did not invade Iraq solely for it oil. Iraq presented a number of opportunities. 1.) Saddam Hussein was an evil dictator and an avowed enemy of the US and Israel. His removal would allegedly serve to protect both countries. 2.) Iraq changed the denomination of its oil trade currency from US dollars to the euro, potentially weakening the dollar. 3.) Iraq under Saddam Hussein signed oil contracts worth billions of dollars with Russian firms. Overthrowing Saddam Hussein's government nullified these contracts because the governing authority recognizing them was dissolved. 4.) Through some twisted logic, Bush and his supporters championed the idea of a successful small-scale war as a way of burnishing his legacy. Ronald Reagan did this with Grenada, Margaret Thatcher with the Falklands and Bush's father with Gulf War I. 5.) Saudi Arabia is the root of extreme Islamic fundamentalism. Wahhabism has its origins there, and most of the funding for Middle East terrorism (supporting Al-Qaeda & Palestine) comes from Saudi Arabia. Weren't 18 of the 19 hijackers of the planes on 9-11 from Saudi Arabia? Since the US couldn't directly attack Saudi Arabia, the invasion of Iraq was to put the Saudis on notice to internally crack down on terrorism and stop its funding. 6.) The USA is presently constructing 13 military bases in Iraq. This is to provide a long-term, strategic foothold to better police the Middle East for US and Israeli interests. The list of reasons for invading Iraq could go on and on. Not one reason, standing on its own, would have galvanized enough support within the US administration to invade Iraq. Collectively, however, it served as a perfect storm. footnote: wahhabism n : a conservative and intolerant form of Islam that is practiced in Saudi Arabia; "Osama bin Laden and his followers practice Wahhabism." Hunter Member Post Number: 109 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 03:00 pm:        Sleestak wrote: “The whole world is far from perfect, yet America still stands as a leader on our mistake prone planet.” America sees itself as something it’s not—a bringing of truth, justice, and democracy to the world. This is not to say America's intentions are bad. Most of the time, I would say that America’s intentions are good, but as the old saying goes “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” The average American citizen has no clue about the covert military ops their country has used to prop up petty dictators and arm various militant groups who have in turn killed many innocent people. During the cold war, these actions were of course taken to strengthen any government, no matter how tyrannical, that would pledge its support to the U.S. instead of the Soviet Union. We can see how this policy backfired by our arming of Saddam Hussein in the 80’s. How insane is it for us to have our taxes used to arm a dictator, who then uses the weapons on innocent civilians in his country at his whim? And then once the political situation changes (with the fall of the USSR) to have to spend more tax money later to go in and defeat him in another war? “Aliens -- Give some credit where credit is due, even if we are all only primitive ‘apes’ with clubs, knives and spears.” The Plejarens aren’t going to give anyone “credit” for pursuing illogical beliefs or violating Creational laws. They see a danger and they are alerting us to this danger through Billy. America should declare neutrality, withdraw its troops from all other countries, and cease to act as the world’s policeman. If we want peace, we should follow the example of Switzerland in this regard. “After all, American is just a melting pot of all the beautiful colors and races of people from the entire globe, pushing to keep this planet moving forward.” Americans are politically ignorant and gullible (not that people of other countries aren’t ignorant or gullible at times also) and continuously elect egocentric "leaders" who see using force as the most expedient way to bring their version of “peace” and “democracy” to other countries. The intentions may be good, but the results will ultimately be negative when the laws of cause and effect are violated. “ So a foreigner pointing a finger at America is really just pointing a finger at himself.” Well, I would say that Europe has had a bloody history, and it could be argued that if the Europeans had been able to live in peace instead of killing each other and committing genocide during the first two World Wars then the U.S. would have never become involved in WW1 and WW2 and this insane policy of America believing it has to step in and correct all the world’s problems would probably not exist to the extent that it does today. But I don’t think we need to point fingers at anyone. We should all see ourselves as citizens of the world. And those of us who seek peace should work together no matter what our country of origin. “America may be flawed, but it is not on an Empire Earth quest.” It does not seek to literally control all the other nations, but it does quarter troops in several other countries (is there any reason for us to still keep troops in Germany and Japan?), has over 180 military bases around the world, and does want to be financially superior to other countries. I do think that America is the modern Roman Empire, except that it is unique in history because America is an Empire that denies it’s an Empire. “America wants to bring peace and stability to Iraq, along with democracy.” But is killing over 100,000 Iraqi citizens a moral way to achieve this? What about polluting their environment with depleted uranium from American weapons? I don’t think so. Is arming a brutal dictator like Hussein in the 1980’s a moral way to achieve this? Again, I don’t see how that’s possible to argue. Ask yourself, why should American soldiers die to liberate Iraq? And if you think they should, why aren’t you signing up in the military to go join them on this glorious mission? If you don’t want to join the military, why do you believe other people should sacrifice their lives? If Iraq wants to be free and democratic—guess who needs to make this happen—the Iraqis, by themselves. They need to muster the courage to fight their own battles and solve their own problems. “America has no intention of taking over sovereign nations.” Not indefinitely, but how do you think Americans would react to a short-term occupation by a foreign power? “If only the Iraqi people could see the benefit of opportunity and a better lifestyle due to a freer business environment that better cooperates with the international community. Everybody wins. Much could be said to the Iraqi people to lay down their arms and take personal responsibility to move forward in a new direction, so the world can move closer to peace and stability.” Well, apparently many don’t see the benefits. And besides, many of the insurgents are not Iraqis. They’re guerilla soldiers who’ve come in from other countries. The see America’s intervention as a modern crusade and they’re fighting an Islamic jihad to repel the crusaders. This is really just a small battle in a larger, thousand year war. America has stumbled into something that it doesn’t truly understand. “However, my point is that everybody who buys oil has indirectly supported this war.” I can’t agree and I don’t see it that way because this war is not primarily over oil. However, the first Gulf War THAT was over oil. They were scared that Hussein would be able to raise prices if he acquired Kuwait’s share. There was of course talk of protecting Kuwait’s sovereignty, but the main reason was U.S. oil interests. But for this war there are other factors—namely a slight revenge factor for Bush to avenge his father and the potential for Iraq to harbor terrorists since 9/11 (aren’t there over at least 50 countries that could harbor terrorists?). I’m not saying the oil isn’t a factor, just that it is more of a consequential benefit and not the actual motive. Sleestak New member Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 06:50 pm:        Hello Hunter, Thanks for the detailed and written response. I’m glad we have chance to exchange a few ideas; I see you as a very sharp person with a good handle on current affairs, and also good at conveying this. You are probably one of the best posters on this discussion site. However, you said “…this war…namely a slight revenge factor for Bush to avenge his father…”. What? Where is the evidence to support this claim? This, IMO, is propaganda that supports an unstable world and promotes fear. And to address your 4th point in the previous post: “4.) Through some twisted logic, Bush and his supporters championed the idea of a successful small-scale war as a way of burnishing his legacy. Ronald Reagan did this with Grenada, Margaret Thatcher with the Falklands and Bush's father with Gulf War I.” Or one could say, Bush and his supporters championed the idea of a successful small-scale war as a way of solving economic and security problems due largely to criminal/terrorist elements –- a growing cancer from failed policies within reasonable and respectable (in Earth standards) political legacies that tried to get the Mid East from dropping extremism and use their “wealth” to join the “free” world…To join the party of opportunity, cooperation, and technological progress. Edward Member Post Number: 438 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 12:21 am:        Hi Memo.... Very very Well Said! I would agree with you more than 1000%. Some people just do not SEE the Facts as they are, and would rather live in a world Full NON-Spiritual Barbaric Violence and Ignorance. It seems to be "All Systems Go"...when it comes down to Corrupt Politics of todays world. Live in a world like Nero or Caesar once had, with an abundance of LIES and turning their heads away from Creation's Natural Laws of Harmony, Balance and thus.."Equilibrium". Any people or country that turns away from these Natural Laws will surely Burn by the fire they lit themselves. And as the saying goes: "One day they will come across themselves." If not by: What goes up must come down, or...The vibes you send out..you will get back, or...What goes around...comes around, or...What you sow..you will harvest, and best known in the True Spiritual Teachings.."What you CAUSE..Will EFFECT you"; thus CAUSE and EFFECT. If One CAUSES Violence to manifest...surely its EFFECT will be Violent. If One CAUSES LOVE to manifest...surely its EFFECT will be with LOVE. So Simple is the Creational Law of CAUSE and EFFECT. Just like knowing, your Right-hand and your Left-hand. But alas to say, there are still human beings that do not know the difference between their Right-hand and their Left-hand. Thus Struggle with knowing what is Right and Wrong! Thus, are Still Ignorant to the Laws of Nature and Creation. It seems the Warmongers of today and The Blindest, just have not experienced War in real life to know what they are truly talking about...alas to say. But these are human beings that are Rusted into The Material World and have not yet reached True Spiritual Consciousness, and in being. They can not even imagine what it is like to walk in a pair of shoes that is suppressed by War in it's daily life of existence. These people have not ONE pair of shoes at home but, an abundance of pairs; which mislead them to WALK So Many Wrongs Paths of Life! And thus, are LOST in their Own FOOT WARE of abundance! Not Knowing..which is The True Path...to walk. Are we not Sooo Spoiled...in our western ways of being, and daily life. So Spoiled, some do not See the facts as they Truly are. Thus live in Life...with Happiness and Lies. Instead of living a Sombre Life with Truth. The Sword Of Damocles...will surely hang even much lower now than it once was. Postponing events is not everlasting. "Dialogue and Reason" is its only way out, of man's Miserable Stubbornness Selfishness ways of Madness. Knowledge To You.... Edward. Hunter Member Post Number: 110 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 03:22 pm:        "'namely a slight revenge factor for Bush to avenge his father…'. What? Where is the evidence to support this claim?" http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/27/bush.war.talk/ When trying to make his case for the war, Bush said "After all, this is the guy who tried to kill my dad." Remember, I said SLIGHT, and that's the key word, but it was obviously on his mind. Put yourself in his position, would it be easier to be swayed by those emotions if you suddenly had the might of the American military at your command? But the primary reason was as Michael stated to remove "an evil dictator and an avowed enemy of the US and Israel. His removal would allegedly serve to protect both countries. " Namaste, Hunter Hunter Member Post Number: 111 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 03:42 pm:        More on the fiat currency fraud and more practical strategies to try to change the system: Can gold stop wars? http://www.a1-guide-to-gold-investments.com/stop-wars.html For Americans who wish to legally “boycott” the fiat system see: http://www.libertydollar.org Digital gold currency is also gaining in popularity. Other alternatives might be: http://www.e-gold.com and http://www.virtualgold.net/ There was a gentleman in California running a private, gold-backed “non”-bank for over 20 years, http://www.anthonyhargis.com , but he was arrested and his business was shut down by the government earlier this year. For more details see: http://www.clairewolfe.com/wolfesblog/00000992.html The government can’t stand people who dare to try and bypass their fiat currency system. They want control of the currency so they can finance their wars indefinitely. This is the root issue. Again, the Plejarens have stated we are the only planet they have encountered that uses paper money and they wisely explained that it is used to propagate conflict whereas other civilizations only use it as a means to “keep score”. I would urge everyone to recognize this fact and try to use private, gold or silver backed currency whenever possible. I also thought of a way for those of you in other countries to get involved in American politics. Foreigners of course cannot vote in our elections, and legally cannot contribute to political candidates, but I think you guys may be able to contribute to political action committees or similar groups. So you can have an indirect effect on U.S. politics if you're willing to pay for it. The following groups work for meaningful political reform and promote public discourse on relevant issues. E-mail them to see if they can accept contributions from foreign citizens: http://www.ustermlimits.org http://www.independent.org/research/copal/ http://randolphbourne.org/ http://www.antiwar.com http://www.lewrockwell.com/ http://www.lp.org http://www.self-gov.org/ Fight the power! Sleestak Member Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 07:06 am:        "We have all heard the euphemism that, "the U.S. pretended to pay foreigners with dollars and they pretended to be paid". In truth, it became a symbiotic relationship. The U.S. government found a way to finance their growing deficit spending propensity, and our trading partners required an eager outlet to sell their goods and services. This in turn helped improve their economies, their employment rates and the standard of living for their citizens. It also helped keep their leaders in power. The result was an unprecedented explosion in both global economic growth and the creation of U.S. dollar credits. Unfortunately, just as it appears that we are in the twilight of the world's greatest, widespread economic boom, we are also at the dawn of what will likely become the demise of the heretofore almighty dollar. At some point, one by one, our trading partners will balk at being reimbursed with dollars for delivering their goods onto U.S. soil. The likely trigger for such an event will be the declining parity of the dollar. The question is the level of pain that each country can withstand, i.e. the extent to which the dollar must fall against their local monetary units, before they rebel. What few people recognize or care to consider are the events that will unfold when this time arrives. True, gold will be at a far higher dollar price. But what economic and social price will be its cost?" Exerpt from, "Be Careful What you Wish For" by Dr.Richard S. Appel www.financialinsights.org Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 44 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2004 - 07:30 pm:        Hi: You can appreciate a text when you re-read it after a certain time and find out that it is still accurate and actual. Therefore, i recommend you re-read Billy`s appeal to the "To The Statesmen In Power And To Mankind Of Earth" wrote in February 2003. It is more relevant than ever. The real fact here is that in USA, people did reconduct the incompetent(dixit the Economist) irresponsible G.W. Bush for second term based on fear (people wanted to feel more secure) emotions AND religious belief to an imaginary god. This instead of removing him out of the office, using reason and logic (as requested in February 2003). I am afraid the price for this stupidity will be horrendous for the USA and the world in the years to come. Terror breeds terror and violence breed more violence!! i can`t believe something that simple is not understood by so many people!!, within the next month i am afraid people will start to find out that they ain`t see nothing yet... all it needs is a spark to engulf the whole region and it is not the infernally stupid W. Bush that will know HOW to stop this (especially without Colin Powell as his secretary of state). Eric Sleestak Member Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Friday, November 12, 2004 - 05:36 pm:        Hello Eric, As per your advice, I re-read Meier’s, “To The Statesmen In Power And To Mankind Of Earth.” Billy Meier writes, “…the enormous crimes of slavery, when slave traders criminally kidnapped black human beings in Africa and enslaved them in America whereby many thousands were already tortured, tormented and murdered in Africa, or on boats used for transportation of slaves while survivors had to endure a life of the worst enslavement in America if they were not "tarred and feathered" by racists such as the "Ku-Klux-Klan". Yes very true, a very sad part to America’s beginning to have enslaved Africans. However since these mistaken times, the United States of America has made great progress dealing with racial issues, and also enjoys a diverse mix of human skin tones among her population. Today, the African American enjoys the same freedoms and opportunities as any other racial color American, yet we still have much to improve on. We are making progress, and have greater recognized and corrected our past mistakes in these areas. Billy Meier writes, “The more America interferes in foreign affairs and installs herself in foreign states, the greater the hatred becomes towards all and everything that is American... thus, the worldwide terrorism of Osama bin Laden and that of his network, al-Qaeda was born…Therefore, Osama bin Laden and his followers have to be removed, yet not through American terrorism of a military kind, but through reason.” Osama bin Laden is a religious fanatical. By your own (figu) definition, a religious human being is an unreasonable person; and furthermore bin Laden is blinded (locked) by fanaticism. How can this problem be solved with reason? I am very willing to listen. Billy Meier writes, “Calmness, freedom, and peace can become a path to reality only then when America withdraws from the world and disappears out of all countries where she has set herself up in a military, political, religious and economical manner.” Okay…what happens to the countries and the condition of the world when America withdraws? What happens to the foreign economies that manufacture goods and services that America buys? What happens to the American economy if foreigners don’t trade with us? How do you propose an increase in employment (standard of material living needs) in expanding world markets (ultimately overpopulation ills) through isolation? Hunter Member Post Number: 113 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 11:48 am:        Jakob, To respond to: “The voting system in the USA is hopelessly obsolete, the American people does not vote directly for its own president, but via a aristocratic layer, the socalled electoral votes, if memory serves me well, which was instated in 1804 with the ratification of the 12th admendment. This system has its origin in the Roman empire 2000 years ago... While the electoral college system violates the one-person, one-vote principle of democracy, it gives electors disproportionate power. Electors, in general, are not bound to cast their vote in accordance with the popular vote results in their state.” You’re right that it was adopted from the Centurial Assembly system of the Roman empire. But, the electoral college was instituted from the very beginning of the U.S. with the ratification of the Constitution. The 12th amendment came about in response to the chaotic election of 1800 in which no candidate received a majority of electoral votes and the race was decided in the House of Representatives. For full history see: http://jceb.co.jackson.mo.us/fun_stuff/electoral_college.htm President Washington was first selected by the electoral college. While the state by state electoral total still decides the winner, today the electors are chosen by popular vote totals. For an overview of how American “democracy” has changed from the founding to the present time see: http://encarta.msn.com/column_foundingdemocracy/Not_Your_Founding_Father's_Democracy.html For a very interesting discussion about Democracy in general, see: http://www.swcp.com/~nmrep/demevil1.htm I do disagree with their assertion that democracy in and of itself is evil, but it has certainly resulted in evil actions as we’ve practiced it on earth. Something to think about. Namaste, Hunter Michael_d Member Post Number: 96 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 06:45 pm:        Here’s an analogy from the sports world. The National Football League is probably the most successful professional sports franchise in America, where success is judged by fan popularity and sound financials. One reason for its success is “parity”. By league rules all teams must compete on equal financial footing. The larger market teams (New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, etc.) have essentially no advantage over smaller market teams (Green Bay, Cincinnati, Jacksonville, etc.) This is a result of salary caps on players and revenue sharing (gate receipts, TV contracts and merchandise revenue are all shared). Why do team owners in large market cities agree to such a scheme? Because they realize their success depends on the larger success of the game and the league. Fans all across the country are more interested in the game when their team has a chance to win on any given Sunday, and this can only be achieved in an atmosphere of fair competition. In comparison, why are the NY Yankees the most hated team (outside NYC) in all of sports? Does it have anything to do with their legacy of winning by fielding the best team money can buy? Am I implying America is like the NY Yankees, beloved by the locals and despised by everyone else? Survey says YES! Am I implying America uses unfair forces to tilt the playing field in its favor? Quid pro quo. One thing to consider is that Billy Meier stated the Universal Law of the Abundance of Nature no longer fulfills itself due to overpopulation, the result of which is shortage, suffering, pain and damage. In material terms, we are approaching a zero sum game. For everyone who has, someone has not. No one can gain unless another one loses. The greedy hoarders are ruining the game for everyone. All of humanity is interconnected and we are only as strong as our weakest link. Eventually we will all rise together or fall. I think Billy is saying that if America stops tilting the playing field in its favor, the rest of the world will do quite well and have a chance to gain its fair share. Only then will peace be possible. Michael_d Member Post Number: 97 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 07:14 pm:        Freedom equals greed in the code words of the politicians. freedom = democracy democracy = capitalism capitalism = corporatism corporatism = profitism profitism = greed Sleestak Member Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 07:42 pm:        Hello Michael, This sports analogy is some excellent thinking. But what you see and say, yet fail to recognize, is that America is the fair NFL and at the same time the Damn Yankees. We are not perfect, yet we are making progress, how ever slow. Billy talks about racial slavery in America’s past, but what about economic slavery today? Some might argue that the US outsourcing of high paying jobs to say China is slave labor. It can be argued; anyone today (and this includes an American, a European, etc.,) who consumes cheap imports is supporting a form of slavery. This is sad, but very true. But is it all bad? Right now the Chinese economy is booming, largely due to flawed American (Western) policies. Yet the Chinese population, as a whole, is experiencing a recognizable increase in living standards as a result of ‘greedy’ foreign consumers who are also trying to survive and live; fact is, more poor Chinese people are able to support their daily survival needs, a family household, in addition to advancing Earth technology. These people are moving up and may very well level out on the world playing field all by themselves. But Mike, you hit the nail on the head when you said, “One thing to consider is that Billy Meier stated the Universal Law of the Abundance of Nature no longer fulfills itself due to overpopulation, the result of which is shortage, suffering, pain and damage...we are approaching a zero sum game.” This right here is the real problem facing the planet Earth. We must learn to work with what we got. Btw, I would say: freedom = democracy democracy = capitalism capitalism = corporatism corporatism = profitism profitism = opportunity Opportunity only becomes greed when the material outweighs the spiritual in the human being; it is up to the human being to find a livable, yet moral balance, between these two extremes. Hunter Member Post Number: 116 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 09:49 pm:        THE CASE OF EZRA POUND Ezra Pound was a poet, one of America's greatest - if not the greatest. He played a major role in the development of writers and poets, such as E.E. Cummings, T.S. Elliot, Robert Frost, Ernest Hemingway, James Joyce, and William Carlos Williams. He also studied politics, economics, banking, and monetary theory. He disapproved of war. During World War II, he hid a number of Jews from the Nazi exterminators; if discovered the penalty would have been death. He broadcast a series of talks on Italian radio aimed at Americans. He had wanted America to stay out of the war, and he said some uncomplimentary things about President Franklin D. Roosevelt. He also stated some of his political and monetary ideas. He was accused of being a traitor. At the end of the war he was imprisoned in an American concentration camp near Pisa, Italy for six months without trial. Then he was transferred to America where he was declared insane and imprisoned in a mental hospital in Washington D.C. for thirteen years. After which the treason charges, for which he had never stood trial, were dropped, and he was released. He returned to Italy, where he lived until his death in 1972. The reason he was not tried seems to be that his prosecutors didn't have a case that would hold up in court and/or they were afraid that he would repeat in court what he had said over the radio in Italy. Wendell Muncie, M.D., one of the psychiatrists involved in his "sanity hearing," said that Pound's insanity consisted of three factors: his passion for the U.S. Constitution, his espousal of the Confucian ethic, and his desire for world peace. No formal diagnosis of Pound's supposed "insanity" has been found. His captors in Washington openly admitted that Pound was a political prisoner. A Congressional investigation started in 1957 and completed in 1958 exposed the inadequacy of the case against Pound and led to his release. Here are some extracts from Pound's radio talks: * "I think an alliance with Stalin's Russia is rotten." (January 29, 1942) * "Liberty is not a right but a duty." (March 8, 1942) * "Sovereignty inheres in the right to issue money. And the American sovereignty belongs by right to the people, and their representatives in Congress have the right to issue money and to determine the value thereof. And 120 million, 120 million suckers have lamentably failed to insist on the observation of this quite decided law. ... Now the point at which embezzlement of the nation's funds on the part of her officers becomes treason can probably be decided only by jurists, and not by hand-picked judges who support illegality." (April 9, 1942) * Quotes read by Pound: 1. "'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.' -- Thomas Jefferson. 2. 'I have two great enemies, the southern army in front of me and the financial institutions in the rear. Of the two, the one in the rear is the greatest enemy.' -- Abraham Lincoln. 3. 'The money power preys upon the nation in times of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy; it denounces as public enemies all who question its methods, or throw light upon its crimes.' -- William Jennings Bryan." (July 26, 1942) * Back to Pound's own words: "Wars in old times were made to get slaves. The modern implement of imposing slavery is debt." (March 25, 1943) * "The phase of the usury system which we are trying to analyze is more or less Patterson's perception that the Bank of England could have benefit of all the interest on all the money that it creates out of nothing. ... Now the American citizen can, of course, appeal to his constitution, which states that Congress shall have power to coin money or regulate the value thereof and of foreign coin. Such appeal is perhaps quixotic." (March 30, 1943) * "That text is known to them that have the patience to read it, possibly one one-hundredth of one percent of the denizens. They forget it, all save a few Western states. I think somebody in Dakota once read it. The Constitution." June 30, 1943) from: http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/rapecon.shtml Hunter Member Post Number: 118 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Friday, November 19, 2004 - 02:27 pm:        new DVD recommendation for everyone - go rent "Control Room". It follows the Arab media vs. the American media in the Iraq war. Very interesting to watch how the news is manipulated by both sides. Edward Member Post Number: 446 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 11:46 pm:        Hi Torrent.... Welcome to the FIGU-Discussion board. As you stated: "Karma... Americans chose the same president again who brought enormous pain and fear to the world... " In this case, we can NOT Define, or Speak..of it, as being, as you mentioned.. "KARMA", knowing that Karma is Religious related, and in this case Buddhism. And in Religious Terms, it is in most cases related to some sort of Punishment. Which is NOT the case. There is NO Punishment what so ever in The Natural Laws. Thus, Only...- CAUSE and EFFECT - , which IS its/the - CONSEQUENCE(S) - . We can Define and Speak of it, as being the "NATURAL" Process(ing)/ Procedure/Handling/Action...etc... of "CONSEQUENCE(S)", and thus, here from..."Flows"...the - CAUSE and EFFECT - Manifestation/Phenomenon. Edward. Edward Member Post Number: 447 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 02:33 am:        Hi All... Speaking of Tampering at Elections: - Some Real DARK FORCES are Really at it...now a days..!! I did my monthly Rense.com readings just this week, and I came across a link, which mentioned the "CIA" being Involved with Tampering in the Belgian Elections last year! I think Lonnie M. and Billy would be glad to see this is Indeed becoming a Fact of Life...now a days...; as Billy mentioned to Lonnie's question to him, that the Elections System should be Improved! Just go to Rense.com and look it up. See:http://www.rense.com/general60/USgovernmentexports.htm Edward. Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 47 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 08:14 pm:        Hello all: I suggest you have a look to the latest Figu special bulletin #15, even with on online translator "Disaster in the US, tragedy for the world" In a discussion between Billy and Ptaah, the latter suggest there will be larger scale electoral fraud than in 2000(conversation was held on sept 9, 2004) due to computerized voting system, specially in Ohio and Florida!! (among the many issues that are discussed, the article is not very positive for the world`s near future ) Some of you (Edward, Lonnie) on this board that suggested there was fraud were perhaps right... Salome Eric