Archive for 2005

Author Message Scott Moderator Post Number: 577 Registered: 07-2000 Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 09:06 pm:        Hello Eric, Yes I have a seen a rough translation of the bulletin which you are referring too. It did mention something to the effect that 400,000 votes were involved in the fraud. It was unclear to me whether these votes were in favor of Bush and were added to the total, or these votes were withheld in favor of Kerry. As I remember reading, Ptaah did mention Kerry ran an honest election, by comparison. More brush for the fire! Regards Scott Cpl Member Post Number: 21 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 05:04 am:        Eric, Would you mind if I copied and pasted your post and sent it on to others via email? If not would you prefer to be named as the postee of this at Figu's discussion forum, or be annon? Thanks, Cpl Member Post Number: 23 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 06:32 am:        Hi Eric and Scott, Sorry that request to reproduce the post should have been to you Scott, not Eric. Beg pardon. Hello Cpl, I received the following German excerpt from Contact 367 of Sept.9 2004: Ptaah: "... Und dass der Mann abermals an die Macht kommt und der Kandidat John F. Kerry verliert, der die Wahl absolut ehrlich betreiben wird, das steht fest." Ptaah: "... Bereits bei der ersten betrügerischen Wahl vor vier Jahren wurde dafür gesorgt, dass in diversen bushfreundlichen Staaten Amerikas rund 400000 gefälschte Wahlstimmen in den Computern erhalten geblieben sind, die bei der neuen Wahl, die einer Farce entsprechen wird, zugunsten Bushs Verwendung finden werden, und zwar unter den Augen der internationalen Wahlbeobachter, die genarrt werden. Insbcesondere werden in diesen Wahlbetrug die Staaten Florida und Ohio verwickelt sein." I do not want to include the English translation at this time because it has not been officially approved. Salome Scott Cpl Member Post Number: 24 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 07:29 am:        Thanks, Scott. I received an email from Michael with this in a basic English format, but have mislaid it. Michael wasn't sure of the date. Is Sep 9th now confirmed? Hi Cpl, To the best of my knowledge the date is correct. If you can't find the English translation, e-mail me and I will send it to you. Regards-Scott Hunter Member Post Number: 119 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 10:07 am:        "It did mention something to the effect that 400,000 votes were involved in the fraud. It was unclear to me whether these votes were in favor of Bush and were added to the total, or these votes were withheld in favor of Kerry." Interesting. But you still have to put this in context of the popular vote totals. Even if you take 400,000 votes from Bush and give them to Kerry, Bush still wins the popular vote total by 3.2 million votes. Yes, Bush would have apparently lost in Ohio and Florida without the fraud and would have therefore lost the election, but he would have lost it while winning the popular vote by a much larger margin than Gore. Obviously, Kerry did some cheating of his own (honest, by comparison)--just not hardly as much as Bush. What a wonderful system we have... Danielk Member Post Number: 16 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 10:29 pm:        "Obviously, Kerry did some cheating of his own (honest, by comparison)--just not hardly as much as Bush." That's funny and sad at the same time. I guess its like baseball who ever cheats best (steroids) gets the most money and accolades. What a crazy, crazy world. Lonnie Member Post Number: 63 Registered: 12-1999 Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 11:27 pm:        If only more in the US government would show such reason and logic, a possible third world war could be averted. This man should be commended for his keen insight and courage. What If (It was all a Big Mistake)? What if it was all a HOAX? http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2005/cr012605.htm Any thoughts? Lonnie Morton Hunter Member Post Number: 131 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 10:50 am:        Lonnie, Ron Paul is an honest man--unfortunately I think he may be the only one in Congress... He had another decent article published not too long ago. See: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=81084 Namaste, Hunter Edward Member Post Number: 477 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 04:40 am:        Hi All... NO, Not a Revolution! Don't you think that America had had..Enough "Revolutions", looking back in her past? A Revolution...is "Out Of Date." And a Revolution only brings forth Deaths in greater amounts. And who are the Victims, in most cases: the Elderly, Women and Children, and the Weak! We should Not forget that. Something to "THINK" about! Try a "Coup" for size. At least, here, the civilians will Not be directly involved. In most cases, the Politicians and the Military would be directly involved with the generated Violence..that it would result into. And keep the Violence to a Minimum, as possible... Naturally. Thus, let us not, let "Innocent" victims be involved here. Edward. Tjames Member Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 11:41 am:        Hello Edward, I love your posts from the past you have a good inquisitive insight on things. I'm just wondering if we "humans of the planet" were to successfully meet minds (being the majority of thinkers) first working through one's own self dillusionment and learning to think with a neutral positive balance, then what would be the next natural step to take? Do we continue spouting ideas for action now until we find a reasonable course for action and then propose this to the thinking populace? Of course, but the road that needs taken will be a dangerous one because afterall were dealing with a huge gamble here. We either do change and set an example for the other nations, because see it or not see it, some countries still immulate our style. It is up to us to change any corrupt, toxic and led astray secret organization/ government. I think we are past the point where we can simply peacefully paralyze the existing govt. Although that may not be entirely out of the question, we might just have to fight for our desired existence, and whatever that truly means to oneself than they have to come to terms with their own level of involvement. After this, people must come together and maybe vote for as peaceful as possible movement taking whatever action neccissary to prolong freedom, which might even mean establishing a new state/nation/or government hopefully all three. I feel that if we as humans of this planet want to successfully re-design a new government we must obviously start from the ground up and not by pointing the finger at the Crazies controlling the current government and expect them to change, the opposite is true. If you all have heard me this far then maybe we agree. If somehow this seperate and new coalition is brought forth possibly even a little forceful at first but none the less brought forth then, just maybe we could set an example to all other sincere, honest and truth seeking individuals. This is the same arguement our own govt uses but actually used in the correct context it means alot. If you think about the deaths inflicted on innocent and non-innocent lifeforms human and non-human it's horrendous. Look instead, at the life forms that could be spared to inspire and mold a new existence through just action. "Just action" is what we have to design, assemble and then impliment. Just as fanaticism spreads like wildfire, in that type of way this great new change will start to sprout anew. However, like all things especially good, they originate with an insight. Saalome, tjames Edward Member Post Number: 480 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:36 pm:        Hi Tim... First of all, Thank You for your Understanding and Comforting words. It is highly Appreciated. Well, yes.. of course, WE...should Always set our Directives with - Neutral Positive - Processing. But indeed, world governments of today are in many ways very Stable in staying in their positions and it would be very difficult to Change their positions with a Radical scenario. I do not know if you are familiar, but the Plejarans once existed in a state of chaos, on their planet(s) and managed to Replace their, then..leaderships with Spiritual leaderships. This could only be done - A La Coup - , Naturally. They Too, would not let the Innocent become victims of such/their actions, they execute. Which is very Wise...and speaks for itself, not? If WE, on Earth had the possibility to execute such a scenario, we should take Their example. This action did result for the Positive for all their Peoples, and of course, their neighboring planets, etc...as what we can conclude. But, of course, Spiritual Leaders would be another thing. But, I think and would Acknowledge, that there are such Wise Ones within the human race, today.. here on Earth, that would qualify for such position. They could be selected, naturally, through a Democratic System to lead the planet... if needed. This would be very very "Good Starters" for us human beings here on Earth, I would think. BTW: Welcome to this discussion board, and hopefully, you will attain the Wisdom and Knowledge you are Seeking for? Just as we all. I can Sense...that you have inquisitive insight on things also, which is a very Positive quality. Edward. Tjames Member Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 01:27 pm:        Thank You "Eddie" ok fine...Edward Yes, I definitely look forward to being a healthy participant of the duty that I feel is neccisary, working towards peacful measures otherwise known as the FIGU forum. Then applying the knowlege and tactics in a useful manner. Thanks for the warm welcome the feeling is mutual. Salome Tim Hunter Member Post Number: 137 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 09:15 am:        Tim/Edward: Well, we obviously need a change desperately. I have just come across some "lost" information on the ancient right to petition government for redress of grievances--originally used by bodies of private men and later parliament against the king. This is a VERY powerful means of political change--and it can be accomplished non-violently--which I believe still needs to be our focus. I'm working with a small group of people to begin spreading this information to the general public in the U.S. Shortly we will have some writings posted on the internet by the person who researched this history and wrote a book on the subject. I'm almost done reading it myself, and it is fascinating. We will include ordering info on the article once it's posted and I hope everyone reading this forum in the U.S. will order the book so that you can see political change can be accomplished via an alternative method and also just to support the cause financially so we can reach as many people as possible. Anyone who sees the war in Iraq as a grievance can participate. So, I think we can build momentum quickly, people just have to understand this legal right and understand it's power. More info coming soon... Namaste, Hunter Tjames Member Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 07:26 pm:        Hello Hunter, This sounds good! It sounds like it is something alot of people can contribute to and agree on without having to get all caught up in religious/knowlege differences. I'm interested! Salome gam nan ben urda gan njber hasala hesporona Tim Edward Member Post Number: 483 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 12:25 am:        Hi Hunter... Yes, that seems very very interesting! Hopefully there is possibility, for such scenario to come into reality? Armed confrontation(s) should always be a Last resource. I am looking forward for further information when this is available. BTW: what I have seen from the media here, there are divers resources, mentioning that Mr.Blair was very very WELL informed from his own staff members, when taking action and invading Iraq was Clearly "Illegal", and thus he Knew this "Consciously", but still kept himself to Mr.Bush's scenario. It seems these sources, still want to Trail Mr.Blair, and maybe...whom ever also took "Illegal" part in the war. So, much is still being done in a - Tribunal Court- manner, if possible, as we can notice. Perhaps with success? Till now, ALL...Has Failed. Hopefully, your source will bear fruit and an end result...? Edward. Kiwilove Member Post Number: 15 Registered: 02-2005 Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 06:12 pm:        I'm not a believer in the so-called democratic system of government - I find it difficult to believe what politicians say. I may be from a country far away from the US - New Zealand, but politicians everywhere are much the same. Simply interested in their PR appeal and how they superficially appear to the people. While there is a definite cause and effect, with what governments do - politicians make 'claims' that they personally made a difference - which I don't agree with. Governments like to think they are in control of the economic system that they oversee - but I remain unconvinced of their claims. I'm not an economist or a student of economics, but I did watch a television program about the subject, saying that a wise economics leader/teacher/etc said that the government should spend big in difficult times, with government projects undertaken to provide work for the unemployed, etc. That of course, makes real sense. I really wanted to make a comment about changing the 'status quo' which is a very difficult thing to do. You have the various 'authorities' to deal with, who regulate themselves. They've been denying the existence of UFOs for years, and keeping things as they are. If there is a shadow government of the US - then, it seems like an impossible task to reveal it, and then to dismantle it - hoping that will surely stop WWWIII from happening. I think Michael Horn said on the Art Bell show, that there should be an international peacekeeping force, that is made up of people from various countries, and that they should be given the legal right to pursue and capture those responsible for international terrorism, in any country. And this organisation should not be controlled or influenced by the US. Hopefully they will get to the bottom of who was responsible for 9/11? How do you get the above working? It is only if someone in a high position of government had the desire to see the above through, could it become reality. What senator would risk their political career in asking for UFOs (and the shadow government) to be taken seriously? Has the Disclosure Project been able to get any Senators onside with them? And with the question of errors within religion, how do you get the religious authorities to admit that they've been lying to the public for centuries with inaccurate religious ideals. Today - their claims do not add up or sound convincing, if we were to examine their claims, one by one... Harvey Mhurley Member Post Number: 87 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 11:24 am:        I think psychologically speaking most people that work their way up the system into positions of power are based upon strong egos and therefore aren't necessarily the best people to be running whatever they are supposed to be running e.g. a country or whatever. That's the way it's always been. Matt Matt Kiwilove Member Post Number: 16 Registered: 02-2005 Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 12:20 am:        I tend to agree with Matt's comments about the suitability of people for political positions, especially. eg. That an honest politician probably wouldn't want to stay in politics or would become dishonest the longer he/she stayed in politics. Politics is a dirty business - they become good at using a lot of words to say nothing. I think a person who doesn't have an ego, but has a genuine desire to do good, would be better than any politician, who had to go the PR route, appearing to be popular and a 'leader', etc. Instead of a democracy - I think it would be better to have a high council of elders (or wise men) who are there, solely to see that good and worthwhile decisions are made and carried out. I don't think capitalism works for the good of all (how can it, when it views profitability as being the goal and ideal) - whereas socialism is that ideal which looks after everyone in the community. It is common sense to look after your own home well, which is the planet earth and it's ecosystems, etc. Harvey Hunter Member Post Number: 143 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 05:57 pm:        * whereas socialism is that ideal which looks after everyone in the community. Allegedly. The problem with socialism, at least as practiced by governments, is that the money or property to redistribute among the people must be taken, at gunpoint at necessary, via the theft of taxation. The creates other problems in society through a disruption the law of cause and effect. We all have an inherent right to keep what we earn through our own efforts, "the bread of our labor" if you will. Greed and competition are negative qualities, but so is using force to control the behavior of others--where such behavior is peaceful and does not violate anyone else's rights. Namaste, Hunter Cpl Member Post Number: 68 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 01:36 am:        Agreed, Hunter. I would paraphrase that to say, "Socialism is that ideal which attempts to look after everyone, and in so doing impoverishes all." Governments are always bankrupt because they produce nothing and are the epitome of inefficiency, not to mention corruption. To entrust the wealth of nations to the likes of such is nothing short of an invitation to disaster, to which, our History stands as humble witness. It is indeed common sense to look after one's own home well, but in a socialist system you have no home of your own: they all belong to the inefficient State, which has no interest to see they are good and comfortable, just...habitable i.e. dishevelled and depressing. After all, the state has no idea what "good" or "comfortable" is; the people do. When people are free to work to establish their own standard of living a dynamism ensues that has everyone producing, creating, doing whatever it is that makes them feel and live the best way they can. All that is then needed are laws to ensure that in the process others rights are not trampled on. This IMO should be the extent of governmental rule or interference, and it would best be performed by the wisest people in that society. A benevolent dictaorship might be a very good system, as might a world of federated republics. The main problem with the former for us is it requires the herculean change of putting the uncorruptible in power. I have nothing against someone making a profit. It has provided the energy, drive, inspiration, and impetus behind innovation on our world. Maybe the Plejarens don't need that, but I don't see profit as a bad stepping stone to get to where they are sometime in the future. If someone sells something for too much profit (what I deem too much) then I just don't buy. I'll buy when I consider the price worth it. Profit is really irrelevant IMO, if there are alternatives available, which there are in a free, entrepreneural economy. Those that ask for too much profit inevitably come ustuck in the end. If they are the only one with the product or service, maybe that product or service is nearly invaluable; and if it holds a high price, others will see the oportunity and get in and produce/give more for less profit while still making a profit themselves. If there is no profit, there is no business. If there is no business there is no money, no employment, and all those that then cannot be self sufficient must die. We'd basically be back to the caves. IMO a truely free entrepreneural system within a republic would produce good for more people than any of the other systems we have experienced or experimented with. Just my tuppence worth. Kiwilove Member Post Number: 19 Registered: 02-2005 Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 02:26 pm:        Ultimately it is what is in the hearts and minds of the people - that determines what quality of life any country has. There's the wise saying that the more spiritual a people are - the less laws are required, because it is internalised within oneself, what is right and what is wrong. With Iraq - when the shackle of Saddam was released, it was up to the people what they wanted. If Islam was at the very heart of the people - there could have been a peaceful country born, if the majority were devout muslims -- but it simply reverted back to what it was like, pre-Saddam. A thugger and thuggee mentality in which violence ruled and the ordinary people were at the mercy of the few who would destroy any sense of peace within their society. No matter what government is in place, it is always up to the majority what kind of country they live in. The ordinary person wants peace and a harmonious life, getting along with others. It is only a relative few - who would turn society upside down in senseless violent acts, to get what they wanted, in acts of pure selfishness. Having a minority rich upper class doesn't instill a sense of well being within a population - and it is isn't spiritual - hoarding materials and wealth, while neighbours go hungry and die. It is too tempting for anyone not to be affected by corruptness. Do ordinary people notice how corrupt governments are? When corruptness is commonplace, it is no longer seen as being corrupt? It is seen as how things are, and how things are done. Corruptness = inefficiency = beaucracy. Any sort of government or system thereof can work, as long as the spirituality of the people is wholesome and true to their values - values being that of fairness, honesty, sincerity, truthfulness, etc. When people reminisce about the good old days - it was when times were simpler and more honest than what they are today. But all was not perfect back then, there were injustices and unfairness, except they were not shown or generally known about. Harvey Der_beobachter Member Post Number: 29 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 06:56 am:        Hello Figu Friends, This article was sent to me by Dyson Devine. Read it to see how crazy this humankind is because of nothing more nothing less than "christianism". Seeing beyond blind faith to a dire revelation Date: March 9 2005 Bill Moyers, the founding director of Public Affairs Television in Washington, retired three months ago, one of the United States' most honoured journalists. Harvard Medical School that same month named him the recipient of its fourth annual Global Environmental Citizen Award. Moyers's acceptance speech should terrify you. If not you deserve everything you get, even if the rest of us don't. Here is an edited version. "One of the biggest changes in politics in my lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal. It has come in from the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the Oval Office and in Congress. For the first time in our history ideology and theology hold a monopoly of power in Washington. Theology asserts propositions that cannot be proven. Ideologues hold stoutly to a world view despite reality. When ideology and theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but always blind. And there is the danger: voters and politicians alike, oblivious to the facts. "Remember James Watt, President Reagan's first secretary of the interior? He was the man who told the US Congress that protecting natural resources was unimportant in the light of the imminent return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony he said: 'After the last tree is felled, Christ will come back.' Washington elites snickered. The press corps didn't know what he was talking about. But James Watt was serious. "So were his compatriots out across the country. They are the people who believe the Bible is literally true - one third of the American electorate, if a recent Gallup poll is accurate. In this past election several million good and decent Americans went to the polls believing in the Rapture Index. That's right - the Rapture Index. The best-selling books in America today are the 12 volumes by the Christian fundamentalist and religious right warrior, Tim LaHaye. These true believers subscribe to a fantastic theology concocted in the 19th century from disparate passages in the Bible that has captured the imagination of millions of Americans. "Its outline is simple, if bizarre. Once Israel has occupied the rest of its 'biblical lands', legions of the Antichrist will attack it, triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. True believers will be transported to heaven where, seated next to God, they will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of boils, sores, locusts and frogs during the years of tribulation that follow. "I'm not making this up. I've read the literature. I've reported on these people, from Texas to the West Bank. They are sincere, serious and polite as they tell you they 'feel called' to help bring the 'Rapture' on as fulfilment of biblical prophecy. That's why they declare solidarity with Israel and the Jewish settlements and back their support with money and volunteers. It's why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act, predicted in the Book of Revelation. "What does this mean for public policy and the environment? We're not talking about a handful of fringe lawmakers. Nearly half the Congress - 231 legislators in total - are backed by the religious right. A 2002 Time/CNN poll found that 59 per cent of Americans believe the prophecies in the Book of Revelation are going to come true. Nearly one quarter think the Bible predicted the 9/11 attacks. "Drive across the country with your radio tuned to any one of the 1600 Christian radio stations, or in the motel turn to some of the 250 Christian TV stations, and you will understand why people under the spell of such prophecies 'cannot be expected to worry about the environment'. Why care about global climate change when you and yours will be rescued in the 'Rapture'? No wonder [Bush political adviser] Karl Rove goes around the White House whistling Onward Christian Soldiers. "I can see by your faces just how hard it is to report a story like this with any credibility. But read the news. I read that this Administration wants to rewrite the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act; wants to relax pollution limits for ozone and ease pollution standards for cars; wants to open the Arctic Wildlife Refuge to drilling. "I read just last night the Administration's friends, supported by ExxonMobil and others, have issued a new report that climate change is 'a myth, that scientists who believe catastrophe is possible are an embarrassment'. And I read the fine print of recent appropriation bills passed by Congress with their obscure and obscene riders removing all endangered species' protections from pesticides. "I see the future looking at me from my grandchildren's photos. We are stealing their future. Why? Is it because we don't care? Because we are greedy? Because we have lost our capacity for outrage? All you gathered here tonight are the antidote to despair, the answer to the faces of my grandchildren. For your work and your witness I give you thanks." ******** Wise words from Talmud of Jmmanuel: TJ 36:12. "Their battle cry will be warfare, for they want to attain power through violence. TJ 36:13. "But when they believe they have power in their hands, they will use it for enslavement and bloodshed, exploitation, brutality, crime, and degeneration. TJ 36:14. "They will speak of honor, freedom and knowledge, but in truth these will be only hypocrisy, coercion and false teachings. TJ 36:15. "Thus, in the future, humankind will lose its face and display an evil and false mask. TJ 36:16. "Many will degenerate into beasts and spend their earthly days without knowledge and conscience. TJ 36:17. "Human ambitions and desires will be directed only toward acquisition, power, lust, addiction and greed. TJ 36:18. "With their intellect, humans will arrange the things of this world to make them subservient, regardless of the fact that in so doing they break the laws of nature and destroy nature itself in many ways. TJ 36:19. "They will no longer trust in the eternal truths, which are anchored in the laws of nature. TJ 36:21. "In their confusion, humans will believe in this erroneous, self-created, pathetic philosophy of life, which will be produced through the cults' confused teachings and through arrangements of human laws and vagaries of the principles that govern nations. TJ 36:38. "So let humankind beware and awaken, for the laws of Creation state: Only that which is timeless and everlasting is of permanence, of truth and of wisdom, and so it is.” Der Beobachter Edelweiß Nestingwave Member Post Number: 7 Registered: 03-2005 Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 09:11 am:        Hello Beobachter. Oh yes -- the "rapture." One of the most insidious false doctrines ever devised by humankind. Possibly even more destructived than the "go to meet 70 virgins" cartoon of fanatic Islam. The rapture -- invented by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century from a "prophecy" given by one of his female parishoners. With the modern pentecostle and charismatic christian movements it really took hold until now it is almost common doctrine with "born again" christians everywhere. It has got to be one of the most insane and insidious false doctrines ever believed in by humankind. A fairytale that justifies complete LACK of personal responsibility by aggrandizing the ego and wrapping it in a false cloak of "holiness." (Only the "holy" are raptured you know -- the rest of us have to face the consequences not only of our own actions but also the actions of the "holy" who did everything possible to make things bad enough so they could escape leaving us sinners "behind" to face the horror.) COWARDLY SCAPEGOATING on the part of the "holy." The "rapture" doctrine basically says this: "It is written in stone (no chance to change) that there will be a gradual deterioration of the entire world. Wars, severe earth changes, political uprising, totalitarianism, moral degeneration, destruction of the planet by the hand of man, satanic control of everything -- and -- eventually a world-wide Armageddon of fire -- but -- before that happens, jesus will SNATCH his believers off the planet in a magical, mystical way so his believers will not have to go through that awful tribulation. But the raptured will return to earth with jesus to establish the kingdom of god in a kind of mystical new jerusalem dimension." Now, this false doctrine has even been distorted further to say "the faster we can bring on this inevitible destruction, the quicker jesus will "rapture" us." Sooo -- they work feverishly toward destroying the planet as soon as possible, creating as much war and chaos as possible, cutting down as many trees as possible, draining out as much of the earth's blood as possible, bringing on as much totalitarian control as possible etc. -- all in the false hope of being raptured by a false jesus christ and bringing on the "second coming" of christ. THEY BRING ON THE DE$TRUCTION BY THEIR OWN HAND AND EXPECT TO FULLY ESCAPE THE CON$EQUENCE$ OF THEIR OWN ACTION$ -- all because of a stupid, ignorant, childish FALSE doctrine (even by the bible's standards) INVENTED through a false prophetess named Margaret McDonald (I think that was her name.) By the way, I've read miss McDonald's prophecy and I can't figure out how ANYONE could get such interpretations from it. So -- you have a false religion with false prophecies and false interpretations of the false prophecies -- ERROR UPON ERROR UPON ERROR compiled and stacked up until it becomes a twisted, distorted, murderous, insidious, self defeating SYSTEM of error and foolishness with the capacity, if left unchecked, to destroy the entire planet and all its people! My my. Oh yes, the "new age" version is that the space ships will come and snatch us away from the consequences of our actions. It seem that people who care nothing for the Laws of Creation will come up with any fantasy to avoid personal responsibility. DELUSION induced by silly religion and "holier than thou" egotism of the most destructive kind. It is true. THIS is what the Bush administration is into. And they say Osama is a religions fanatic? Roy Hunter Member Post Number: 145 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 01:23 pm:        Tim/Edward/and All: The information is now posted on the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. See: http://www.strike-the-root.com/51/hargis/hargis1.html The article is just an introduction. The book explains all the details and potential uses of the right. Namaste, Hunter Der_beobachter Member Post Number: 30 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 04:24 pm:        From a Wise Author: By Manuel Valenzuela Inside the belly of the beast the world presently finds itself trapped in, exploring through polluted bowels birthing malignant cancers spread by corporate indifference, continuing into diseased and enlarged entrails of gluttonous addictions, traversing black-blood veins soaked in oil, peering into the empty brain cavity of empire exhibiting corrosive mental disorders created by society itself, showcasing non-existent attention spans, Alzheimer's-like amnesia, medicated chemical imbalances laced with conditioned fear and insecurity, and the remnants of anti-depressant, hyperactivity sequestering cocktails eating away the minds, imaginations and futures of youth. Inside the belly of the beast will we venture into, witnessing the overflowing testosterone of the human animal, the hate-filled, violence-seeking, fear controlled and deranged xenophobia of half the population, the ignorance fed by gutted educations and dumbed-down televised fictions, the castrated courage of the sane half of its citizenship, the silent acquiescence by the citizenry to mass murder and war crimes, the government and corporate controlled minds of people turned sheeple and the wisdom-lacking behaviors of so-called leadership. ... The foundations of an empire absorbed in megalomania are crumbling, slowly but surely rotting to the core, a victim of its own hubris, indifference and complacency, in time to fall with the tremors of an earthquake of its own creation. Read more here: http://207.44.245.159/article8227.htm ...Instead, mesmerized by the incantations of those they follow, eager to buy lifetime supplies of snake oil being sold, captivated by the charlatans speaking the tongues of fraud and deception, tens of millions of Christian fundamentalists choose to place blind faith in make-believe stories of fantasy, relying on the primitive myths of ancient and unlearned tribal men and their archaic fables used to explain both the world of yesteryear and their psychological fears and insecurities, of no more significant use to modern humans today than the technology of 8,000 years ago. Read more here: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8210.htm Der Beobachter Edelweiß Edward Member Post Number: 487 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 05:23 am:        Hi Hunter... Yes, interesting information on the page. Still, it does sound very familiar to me. I think I have read about it in the past. Because it being related to English Kings, and so on. And yes, the book should explain even more, without doubt. That Is Truly the way to give The People Back their POWER to Judge. Here where I live, we call this "POWER of Judgement", "Machtiging van Oordeel". In other words, "Empowerment/Authorization of Judgement". Which is Above all other possibilities, and Rules. And as it is expressed, as being a "Natural Right". A Natural way to POWER over Decisions; thus, "Empowerment/Authorization over Decisions". If I am correct, here in the country I live, the above mentioned can only go into practice by one leading judge. But, I think there has even been such practices, also, done in a collective sense/format. But of course, utilizing this "Empowerment/Authorization of Judgement" against, much Higher Powers in government would be a labor's lost? We know what Hargis went through, not? Being Jailed for some six months. When he, in fact, did not even break any Laws. But I guess, "Trying Never Hurts", as they say. Doing "Nothing" will do even More Damage, not? Edward. Hunter Member Post Number: 146 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 03:08 pm:        * If I am correct, here in the country I live, the above mentioned can only go into practice by one leading judge. But, I think there has even been such practices, also, done in a collective sense/format. Edward, you'll have to read the entire history, but the assemblies were organizations of private men, who derived authority to execute powers of judgment simply from the act of organizing into a group to redress grievances. There's no need to go through a judge or any other official in the elected government. Through this right, you essentially become a government within a government, but with equal powers to the elected government. * But of course, utilizing this "Empowerment/Authorization of Judgement" against, much Higher Powers in government would be a labor's lost? It was used by private men to remove a king, but of course that took several years. It won't be easy, that's for sure, but it will probably be easier to bring about true reform this way than through the ballot box (especially since we know the ballot boxes are being "stuffed" with phony votes). It will definitely be much easier to hold government officials accountable this way. * We know what Hargis went through, not? Being Jailed for some six months. When he, in fact, did not even break any Laws. But I guess, "Trying Never Hurts", as they say. Doing "Nothing" will do even More Damage, not? Again, it won't be easy. And yes, the government can commit all sorts of crimes against innocent people, but as the number of people in the assemblies grows (we hope), so does our moral authority. Even with a small assembly we immediately have the right to arrest judges or any other public officials who are violating the laws and rights of others. This is how it was exercised in England a few hundred years ago. The first step is educating people. We're just now getting it out on the web. It will take some time to "wake people up", and while even the education phase will be a struggle, it will be better than doing nothing. Edward Member Post Number: 492 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 01:34 am:        Hi All... For those who have interest and do not know yet.... One of the Criminal Architects of the Invasion of Iraq - One Mr. Paul Wolfowits - has been nominated and will become the President of The WORLD BANK!! Despite Protest from opposition parties. Having CONTROL over the WORLD BANK is TOTAL CONTROL over the Economics and Finances of The World. Which concludes us, to the Facts, that the First Steps to World Domination has become A FACT! This is Truly.. "The drop of water...that makes the bucket overflow!!" And I thought "WAR Criminals" who Kill 10's of Thousands of Innocent men, women and their children, were to be put on a War Criminal Tribunal!? It seems that The WAR-mongers in Washington would rather "REWARD" their WAR Criminals, than to practice True Creational Justice! THEY are slowly, and Surely...Taking Over OUR World - ! And Let THEIR appointed HENCHMEN(Puppet men)...Propagate the so-called Democracy and Freedoms...throughout the world. Under The Cloak...This and that..and Of What Not, THEY, AGAIN...LIE TO THE PEOPLE! Its goes to show that Billy "Hit The Nail On The Head"!(as usual!!) Quotes concerning the War in Iraq, and the whole War scenario in general by Billy: " This war could result in terrible consequences, and mankind and its planets could be plunged into an immense catastrophe, whereby uncountable human lives could simply be wiped out. Basically, a single man with the name of G.W. Bush has unleashed all this. Their only aim is to engage other countries into wars, to spread themselves out as if they owned everything, as well as spreading death, depravity and destruction. This also includes all those people who support the war and howl with the warmongering wolves. Moreover, all of the guilty, fearful and cowardly, warmongering powerful and mighty at the head of state as well as uninformed stupid citizens in bondage with them are never in the position to take responsibility for their criminal actions against mankind. 'Force breeds force, war breeds war, terror breeds terror.' That must finally be clear and understood by the human beings of Earth. Therefore, the warmongering, powerful and mighty in state must be removed and should not even be voted into high positions. G.W. Bush also does not belong into the powerful position, which was played his way unscrupulously and irresponsibly by some of the people of the USA. His aim is to abuse the power for his warmongering and exercising of power. Whereby he disregards and ignores all those pleading and reasonable voices of the people who resist and speak out against all warmongering, all terror as well as death penalty, like billions of reasonable and truly peace-loving human beings around the world do. This unreasonable and irresponsible howling of the statesmen in power and their followers and others agreeing, rests on naked fear and cowardice and is pointing towards Iraq with Saddam Husain representing a threat and danger to the world, while in truth America with her would-be-cowboy Bush junior, really embody the effective danger and threat to the world. The most dangerous terrorism of all comes from America and her president who considers himself a God and master of all things. The root of all evil is America, because of her excesses in regard to her self-appointment to be the World Police, and in respect to her machinations of ambitions in world control which leads to hatred and terror around the world, indeed, especially against America herself as well as to her allies. The more America interferes in foreign affairs and installs herself in foreign states, the greater the hatred becomes towards all and everything that is American... thus, the worldwide terrorism of Osama bin Laden and that of his network, al-Qaeda was born. And this hatred of the terrorists and its connected campaigns of revenge will increase, indeed, completely in relation to the hateful and revengeful actions of America. And this terrorism, which is in balance with the terrorism of America, will likewise contribute largely to the Third World War because everything is hopelessly entangled. Therefore, Osama bin Laden and his followers have to be removed, yet not through American Terrorism of a military kind, but - Through Reason -." Here I would like to add, that Osama Ben Laden had already made 2 Statements mentioning and proposing to Reason and Negotiate for ending the wars, but Mr. Bush Declined Both proposals! Thus, another Step towards the realization of Henoch's Prophecies, which may, become a Prediction..knowing the Facts as they are Today. "A Cold, One Can Remedy...But..The Cold, Will Always Come Back" Edward. Hunter Member Post Number: 149 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 10:24 am:        "The American people are generally a friendly, kindly and compassionate people. If they knew one tenth of what their governments get up to around the world and in their dealings with foreign governments and people, there would be an enormous outcry. For this reason much is hidden or obscurred.": http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa.html Nestingwave Member Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2005 Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 02:51 pm:        Hello everyone. I am moved by everyones comments. There are logical and deep thoughts here and real passion as well. As a semi-brain-washed American (born on the 4th of July 1942 by the way), I have spent a good deal of my life trying to sort out Truth from an ocean of lies. In fact, I found out that almost everything I was taught and indoctrinated with from the second I was born is a lie being passed on from generation to generation through an ancient tradition of lies. It takes many mistakes to wade through it all. Discernment doesn't come easy -- but it comes when one makes the effort with sincere intention to know the Truth, the whole Truth and nothng but Truth -- even if one's belief system collapses in the process, which it usually does --sometimes more than once. Beobachter -- Manuel Valenzuela's writing is a heartfelt poem -- beautiful, logical and true -- with all the emotion of one who mourns yet asserts hope through reason and logic. Edward -- George W. Bush is not the root of the problem. He is only a puppet for his controllers who will gladly throw him into the trash whenever it is convienient for their agenda of world control. The neo-con fascists, including Paul Wolfowitz, are "yes" men for their secret controllers. They do as they're told. You see, there is indeed a world-wide group that would like to dominate the whole planet. According to their own stated goals, they wish to reduce the population of earth to about 500,000,000 by MURDERING off the "useless eaters", as they call anyone who is outside the frenetic engine of recycled profit and loss -- $$$ and POWER. That means - AIDES (not aid) to Africa, genocide where ever it can be perpetrated, WAR where ever it can be enticed, social chaos, disentegration of human values, a society of squirrel wheel clones frantically chasing ownership, democracy, freedom, justice and equality -- which have become petrified dogmas -- slogans -- which are totally empty of any reality whatsoever. And ... a totally taboo question that should be asked continually by all, but almost never is -- WHO BENEFITS?? Someone or some group has (carefully) brain washed the American people into living a fantasy, a fairy tale imagination void of any Truth whatsoever. Those who begin to wake up are marginalized, debunked, ridiculed, cast out of the job market, imprisioned, tortured (we let the Saudi's do that for us) or murdered. "SUICIDED" is a more appropriated word. Being the president of the World Bank may not put Paul Wolfowitz in control of all the worlds money -- but his controllers ALREADY ARE and I'm sure Paul will be a good boy and do exactly as he's told -- without question (being a man of "faith"). So -- who or what is this "secret" government? Does it really exist? Can it be exposed and brought to the light of truth? Don't think it's just operational within the U.S. It is well intrenched within your own country also. In my opinion (and the opinion of several U.S. Congressmen and women) it DOES exist but its perpetrators are actually few in number and remain secret at all cost. Indeed, they can afford to. However, their secrecy is not air-tight. They've made a couple of big mistakes in their arrogance -- 911 being one of them. Following the $$$ on that one could be very revealing. Those who try to prevent such inquiry should be the first suspects and herein lies hope. Not everyone is asleep and brain dead from propaganda. My own investigation of it has included these revealing elements: Elitist and racist: Our genes are better than your genes -- we are the chosen ones to lead humanity -- we have the right, by virtue of our superiority -- common philosophy among secret societies. Blackmail. Incredible HIDDEN tehnologies to be brought forth eventually for the purposes of deception -- such as a holographic FAKE UFO landing or a FAKE second coming of Christ or a FAKE "threat" from outer space. Manipulation via FEAR is a large part of the successful modus operandi. Minds dulled through drugs, sex, entertainment, Tee Vee and an educational system teaching children to be conforming clones, also is a part of their successful modus operandi. You understand, of course, that this is a very ancient plan carefully crafted over generation after generation for thousands of years by those who believe that, due to their inherent self-image of superiority in intellect, genetics, psychology, knowledge and wisdom, have the right to tell (rather compel) others what to think and do. They strongly believe, "the end justifies the means." Extensive mind control including implanted chips in key individuals. Monarch (trauma based) mind-control to produce multiple personalities that can be easily controlled -- nudged to do the "right thing" if you will. Abduction and inculcation of children as sex slaves (to service and blackmail the "elite") or mind-controlled robots that, without question, enthusiastically carry out the orders of their masters -- sorcery and enslavement of "inferior" human beings. The FOIA (freedom of information act) has allowed us to see documents proving that "Operation Paperclip" after WW2 brought the SS and Gestapo intelligence organizations INTO the United States and set them up as the CORE of the CIA (1947). The nazis already had a spying organization operating against (even inside) the Soviet Union. The U.S. wanted to exploit that. It wasn't long before the CIA became a segmented operation containing very "black" secret elements totally unaccountable to the President, Congress or the American people. They were budgeted by arms sales and the world-wide illegal and legal drug market which they control. The CIA and all the intelligence organizations operating in all countries -- KGB, Mossad, etc. were all a part of the "cult of intelligence" and while appearing to oppose one another, were actually working together for the very same agenda of world-wide tyranny. Without saying much more about this, let me put out a qeustion. Who or what is the most well established, oldest, most intrenched, most fanatical military intelligence operation in the world?? No, it is not the CIA. No it is not MI6 nor Mossad. Here's where my investigation has taken me so far in more or less cronological order -- scribes, pharisees, priestcraft -- masonic and secret societies under many different names --world-wide temporal and "spirit}ual" power, the empires, the Roman Catholic Church, the inquisition, the Council of Trent, the violent revolutions, the American Civil War, assassination of Lincoln, all wars since then including WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, assassinatin of JFK, RFK and MLK, the Baltic, Afghanistan, Gulf War 1 and 2 and ...? Iran is probably next in line then Syria and N. Korea -- maybe WW3 -- the fascists, the zionists, the nazis, the communists. What one world-wide organization keeps cropping up? What world-wide military intelligence organization admittedly desires total world control to be in the hands of one (superior) man? Without giving you the answer, I'll just say, put General Klovenbach into your browser and do a little research for yourself. No, I don't think this is the whole of the matter -- but -- a very important key that bears some forensic examination. Swgamerx New member Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2005 Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 02:41 pm:        Very interesting question Nestingwave, I did a bit of research and as far as I can gather this General Klovenbach is connected to the Vatican and reports directly to the Pope or something. My answer to your question would be that the one man that this secret organization is trying to put in control of the world is the Pope. if what your implying has some truth to it than it seems that the Vatican is hiding more than I previously thought. Cpl Member Post Number: 70 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 12:01 am:        IMHO it is worth considering whether there is a small group above and beyond all these other groups like the Jesuits, Illuminati, corporate and economic hub powers, military and political leaders -- all of whom may have their own agendas incorporated within other agendas or programs they are encouraged to employ. The only place I know that gives mention to this group is http://wingmakers.com/neruda4ex.html in an alleged interview with the alleged Dr. Nerdua (the name is an alias, though it seems someone like this character with his knowledge does exist, though again this is not proven). In the interview he talks about TOP, the Triad Of Power. According to him it is a triangle made up of the Militaristic powers and Isolationist powers at the basal corners, and the Incunabular (as he refers to them) at the upper apex of the triangle. The Illuminati and Jesuits e.g. would be within the Isolationaist powers (individual groups, and financial corporate leaders etc.). It is not that they all work together as one group, but the Incunabular guides the others into the directions it wants them and the world to go, often without those other powers realizing they are following someone else's agenda. They can be caught by suprise, though. For example, they did not anticipate -- nor want, at least initially -- the Internet. Computers were meant to be for the elite. The Incunabular are many and there are ranks within the group. Their lower ranks are the most numerous in membership (a couple of hundred?) and they produce white papers and other documents and procedural plans and are associated or allied with international think tanks etc that advise governments in carefully thought out ways so as to guide them in the directions the Incunabular consider the best way for them to go. The upper echelon of the Incunabular is said to consist of five to eight people who are totally incognito. To all intents and purposes they do not exist. There is no record of their existence and they are employed for life, and without family ties etc. They may have fake death accidents before being recruited. Joining the ranks is volutary. They have no religion as such. Neruda says they are not evil and actually work their entire lives devoted to trying to govern the World which they see as being in danger of disintegrating tribally/nationally, possibly into WW III. They are groomed and trained by an elite inner circle, and as they are not elected, obviously are not democratic -- nor republican -- in outlook. The WingMakers information is "mythical" in as much as it is not exactly factual, all names are aliases e.g. and there are many metaphors within the information in place of actual fact. However there is much within this Interview 4 to consider. It's mentioning the rising oil prices and strategic importance placed on this by the world planners and Incunabular, for instance, has proven to be exactly so. Ditto for its mentioning America being chosen as the world democratizing force in order to create a global culture based on western values and to gain control of the world's oil supply so it can be rationed out fairly to all nations in the future, as they see becoming a necessity to avoid nations rising up against nations. The Incunabular fear the rising M. E. powers will result in a unified block making another super power in the future that will greatly increase world instability and threaten WW III unless these M. E. powers are somehow bought off or democratized before they unite. The Interview was posted online about 3-4 years ago before the recent rise in oil prices, the now general realization that the price will only likely go up in the medium- and long-term future, and the admitted attempts by the U.S. administration to democratize the world. (Whatever happened to the Republic? Yes, I, we all, know.) With respect to this prediction, at least, the Interview proved to be completely accurate. The interview begins where Interview 3 left off talking about the Ancient Arrow Site and the alleged spiral helix cavern with its 24 chambers and their significance for mankind. It quickly drifts into the subject of World Government. If you want to read the other three Interviews just replace the number 4 in the link with 1, 2, or 3. Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 63 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 06:48 pm:        Hi Cpl: Norm has already asked Billy about similar matters in 2002. http://forum.figu.org/us/messages/12/2686.html May 29, 2002 Salome Eric Der_beobachter Member Post Number: 33 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 06:05 am:        Hello Eric_drouin, Cpl and others, To have a better understanding of who are those behind the so called "world domination" take a look here: http://www.gaiaguys.net/666.htm study it calmly. Then go to this webpage also: http://www.gaiaguys.net/Herodesmason.htm read/study it complete The "societies" mentioned, there at the above mentioned pages, are the self deluded 'Big Ones', the Big Shots and culprits behind all the religious and political lies all over the planet AND THIS IS MADE WITH THE "BLESSINGS FROM VATICAN - ROME. They control everything mainly politics and religion. Their members have publishing houses and pay people to write all the "esoteric" trash, pure religious garbage and also they do make all these misguinding webpages about "new age" stuff and similars. Spread the links all over the planet and FORGET all the bull&$#% you may find written about 'them' all over the web. Mr. Billy Meier is aware about these webpages and enjoys it. Der Beobachter Edelweiß Cpl Member Post Number: 75 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 07:43 pm:        Thanks Guys and DerB, I've printed that out. Have read most of it before. BTW the Incunabular are not The New World Order, or any of the so-called conspiracy groups, and the "information" on them is freely available for consideration/rejection and not for sale. Thanks Kiwilove Member Post Number: 42 Registered: 02-2005 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 02:45 am:        Is there any legitimacy with the www.wingmakers.com site? I looked at this site a long time ago, and thought the artwork was too consistant with itself, feeling it was just 'one' person doing it, and not a varied group of artists? There was word it was all a 'hoax' which was disappointing to hear about. It does get difficult to know what is correct information and what isn't. eg. The Bohemian Grove, Million Dollar babies and 'Thanks for the Memories' claims about famous people taking part in horrific rituals. If there is any truth to the information about reptilians - all one has to do to uncover them, is to have some fresh menstrual blood handy, and let the 'reptilian' get a good whiff of it. Anyone with a brain knows that a country which runs on capitalism isn't a country that will look after it's old folk, sick and invalid, etc. The so-called trickle down effect from the rich doing well, doesn't help the poor and out of work --- it's simply the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It's not easy to get people to see sense, when the established orthodox view of things, is so entrenched in our society. That authorities hold the power and retain it. Children grow up having to conform and become model citizens, believing everything that what is told to them is true. To not question authority, especially that which has existed for centuries. Harvey Nestingwave Member Post Number: 12 Registered: 03-2005 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 09:41 am:        Hi Harvey. The "Wingmakers" is not a "hoax". It is fiction and very beautiful art, writing and somewhat close to the perennial philosophy of the universe. If you read the wingmakers site thoroughly all that is explained. Therefore, although some people who approach it on the surface may imagine it to be "real", the artist does not try to hide the fact that it is art -- GREAT art at that -- rivaling Picasso! Roy Cpl Member Post Number: 81 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 03:36 pm:        Dear Roy and Harvey,

As writer of the wingmakers chamber painting papers I suppose I should answer your posts, though let's remember that this site is for FIGU related posts and neither of you have alluded to any FIGU material. I shall. But perhaps generally this sort ofdiscussionis best for the www.wingmakers.com forum/discussion board.

The WingMakers material (WMM) is a form of myth and metaphor. While the story behind it is said to be basically factual in content, all names have been changed and a few metaphors have been inserted in place of truth or fact. This was allegedly nad originally due to security/safety issues to certaiin people involved with getting the information out. Billy certainly is evidence that it is dicing with death to come out and talk the straight truth if what you have is original, meaning first-hand experience. 

However, being basically myth, the WMM is not something just to be believed in. While it makes it difficult to know what is fact and what is not, that in itself draws one into it to study and try to accertain the truth, and it also keeps away those for whom it is not going be contributive, to impact significantly. 

There are a number of similaritites to the WMM and Billy's, and there are also a number of clear differences. However the WMM is metaphorical on many levels. Are these levels metaphorical or a version for the world at the moment up to the advent of the discovery of the Grand Portal (GP)? The GP is said to be the scientific discovery and undeniable proof of the existence of the human soul, how it works and performs its functions, and there are countless spinoffs that change our world and perception of mankind and life and death forever. Billy has said there is no soul, as does Buddhism. However the GP is also said tto be the individuated spirit or consciousness in WMM. It comes down to semantica in the end. The individuated spirit or individuated consciousness in the WMM has its counterpart in Billy's "sprit consciuousness". There are other parallels that on the surface only appear to be contradictions.

I have just finished the paper on chmaber 1 painting and website manager Mark Hempel is currently working making this into a PDF file for the site. When it comes out (in the next week or two presumably) you will see that there are parallels in meaning to the inner cosmology diagram of FIGU, although the WM chamber 1 painting subject itself is not primarily the inner cosmology.

Personally I find the WingMakers material and Billy's the only two I spend any real time with on the Internet. 

Roy, the art is indeed transformational. I experienced what in Zen has been called the Thunderous Silence when decoding one of the paintings. An account of this experience can be found in the appendix of the Chamber 6 paper. Curiously Billy says Enlightenment doesn't exist. I know from personal experience that transformation does, though of course, from the zen point of view you could always say it doesn't exist. The experience showed me much about life and eath and onloy BIlly's material echoes what I experienced there when talking about what one becomes after death. This is not spoken about much yet in the WMM, but but Billy's discription of what happens after death can be read into the Chamber 1 painting and the philosophies that relate to it. The experience transformed my concept of what death is (because it is the mythic death in which one dies to oneself and ones consciousness is changed forever). Billy discription concurs completely with my own experience. It's difficult discussing this -- semantic problems again -- but it is a, I think something which will be proven fact with the discovery of the GP/individuated spirit consciousness/spirit consciousness. 

I have to go now. Perhaps we can continue this discussion later or on the wingmakers forum when the Chamber 1 paper comes out. I'll be there for a few days then. 

Later, Nestingwave Member Post Number: 14 Registered: 03-2005 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:14 pm:        Dear CPL. I am honored. I rotate the chamber paintings on my puter wallpaper daily. They bring me into a state of "organic peace" whatever that means. Of course a "myth" is not necessarily "untrue." In fact I find quite a bit of truth in everything on Wingmakers. Some of the greatest truth is to be found in what we call "fiction." It is "between the lines" so to speak. Being a "wannabe" writer myself, I really appreciate your writing style -- it is visual and tactile -- like the paintings. The story is a real thriller rivaling any plot I've seen. I am particularly drawn to the writing style because it is so visually descriptive through your excellent use of words. I don't have any sound on my computer so I can't appreciate the music. There are so many ways and angles to approach truth. While Billy does not use the word "soul", he does use the word "spirit" and "comprehensive consciousness block." One could make the argument that "soul" is simply mind, will and emotion and "spirit" is intuition, conscience and conscious fellowship with "First Source" as you call it. That's all semantics not doctrine nor dogma in the sense of "belief" or blind "faith." My way of describing it is simply to say, "there is one Source out of which everything arises. It exists at the root of all that is. Each individual has a holographic fragment of it within i.e. the fragment contains the whole." As far as the continuance of the "individual", only the fragment survives not the ego/personality which is only a temporary construct, like the physical body. The spirit fragment is enriched by the new experiences (both positive and negative) of each life. It is conscious of itself as an eternal individual." Very basically, that's about it -- whatever metaphores, symbols, myths or terminology is used to describe it. This is the basic perennial philosophy of the whole universe according to my very limited perspective. However, the meditation on it and the vision of it everywhere brings me joy and peace. When I see it in others and myself, I have profound respect. When I do not see it, I am blinded by my own ego and experience unhappiness. Therefore, I strive to see past the egos and appearances to the rich beauty and eternal mystery of the Source. Creation is the Plejaren term and it's a good one being livingly active and not quite as static as "Source" or "First Source." Perhaps the "Grand Portal" revelation is simply expanded consciousness allowed to have its own way with no interference. Sitting quietly doing nothing. Zen? Soul? Spirit? I don't know if any such thing could ever be "proven" in an empirical way but it can certainly be "known" (sci) in a logical way. However, knowledge alone is just an outward grocery list until it is experienced into wisdom i.e. "eaten." Then it becomes useful for the sake of evolution. Roy Cpl Member Post Number: 83 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 05:01 pm:        Dear Roy,

Your good post shows ably how possible it is to read beyond different semantics to see the unity of content beneath. Of course, we still need to exercise great caution in our choice of words, especially in the case of FIGU where there are only words to "illustrate" or explain the philosophy/truth -- apart from Billy's remarkable photographs, which offer proof of existence rather than augmenting discussions on Creation. 

You say: Creation is the Plejaren term and it's a good one being livingly active and not quite as static as "Source" or "First Source." I have to laugh, I thought exactly the opposite; that "Creation" seemed more static and "Source" more active. Thanks for the excellent mirror view. 

BTW the wingmakers.com forum has been shut down due to ever increasing forays out of the subject matter. There's a lesson there for FIGU forum members I'm sure, and shows the sense and import of having moderators to check on a forum. With only literally 2 - 3 maximum potential moderators at the wingmakers site it is/was an impossible task. I, like everyone else, shall therefore not be posting there but on the UK wingmakers forum linked to from the wingmakers.com "forum" link where I hope to be available a few days for comments and questions re Chamber Painting 1, and its essay/paper due online shortly. That's the place for purely wingmakers discussion topics. I'll likely be absent for a few days at least, as I'm now preparing the chamber 1 paper/essay for online presentation at wingmakers.com. 

Thanks are in order to the moderators here who manage to selflessly keep this forum going -- and on subject. THANK YOU, ONE, AND ALL! IMO your value has been proven. Hunter Member Post Number: 154 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 01:37 pm:        I was skeptical at first of the stories of a 9/11 conspiracy involving the U.S. government at first, but the more I read, the more it looks like there was some type of government involvement: "U.S. military leaders proposed in 1962 a secret plan to commit terrorist acts against Americans and blame Cuba to create a pretext for invasion and the ouster of Communist leader Fidel Castro" http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/Prior_Knowledge/Sun_bamford.htm The Perfect Terrorist Plan To Level The Twin Towers Created In 1976 http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/perfect_plan_level_twin_towers_c reateed_1976.htm The story about finding the passports of two of the hijackers in perfect condition is B.S. plain and simple: http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2005/300305newrevelations.htm Allegedly none of these questions that were submitted to government officials have been answered: http://911independentcommission.org/questions.html Cpl Member Post Number: 85 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 01:35 am:        Dear Roy, Harvey, and all, Maybe you have heard the Chamber 1 essay is now freely available from http://www.wingmakers.com/reproductions/chamber1paper.html. You can elect for a high or low res PDF. You will find aspects of the Anatomy of Individuated Consciousness, and the way these relate to the Individuated Spirit/soul, the inner Source Vibration, and the Underivative Information Structures connecting with Source/Creation very evocative of FIGU material, though in very different format. You might like to print out the FIGU Akasha Chronicles jpeg at forum.figu.org/us/messages/13/3785.jpg for a comparison. It is possible to see many parallels with FIGU writings. As is shown the "Transforming of the Genetic Mind and Humanity" takes several hundred years before humanity can freely travel in space with other advanced beings as a cosmic explorer race. The old religions also fall away before long. Just this afternoon I was discussing with Alex on the UK WingMakers forum about his thoughts on the animal shape. I think this may well represent -- given the importance of genetics in the WingMakers information -- the time when we will finally be creating our own meat protein food through gentic engineering without the need to sacrifice animals anymore, just as the Plejarens tell us they do now. Anyway hope you enjoy the read. Chamber 1 painting is a uniquely prophetic painting IMO. Joseph_emmanuel Member Post Number: 94 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 04:33 am:        Today would appear to be just another day. People have gone to work as normal. Many still travel into London, as you can expect. Lunch is at 12pm. And between 5pm and 6pm most of us can all expect to go home. Nothing usual about today, except for one thing, our politicians are all on holiday, including Mr Blair, which in effect means England is currently without a government. In the Middle Ages our neighbouring enemies would take this opportunity to take control of the country. These days of course it's not so simple. But it leaves us open to all kinds of threats from within and without. And who is here to answer to it? - no one. As a citizen of England I am completely incensed at such irresponsibility. I can't understand how any government can abandon its country, particularly at a time like this, when we are receiving bomb threats from terrorists. I don't consider myself a patriot. But I have to confess to having patriotic feeling. I love England. I love its history. And I hate what our government is doing to it. I hate also myself for sitting back and taking it all like everyone else. Why don't I have the courage of my conviction when I feel so strongly about it? My conviction is to oppose our government, to overthrow it, to start a revolution if necessary. I am so angry I want to take control and change things now! But I don't, because I can't, because I am afraid to. I am a coward! We are all cowards because we do nothing except protest. To hell with protests! What is needed is decisive action. Maybe if I think about it long enough and work myself up a bit more, and maybe even mix with the wrong kind of people, I can begin to put it to practice. I don't agree with violence. But when politics is inadequate what else is there? Hunter Member Post Number: 163 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 03:57 pm:        * We are all cowards because we do nothing except protest. To hell with protests! What is needed is decisive action. Maybe if I think about it long enough and work myself up a bit more, and maybe even mix with the wrong kind of people, I can begin to put it to practice. I don't agree with violence. But when politics is inadequate what else is there? I definitely understand your frustration Joseph, but in the current environment I would strongly urge against the use of violent force. Number one, they will simply brand you as a terrorist, destroy you in the media, and put you away for the rest of your life. Number two, when you talk about mixing with the wrong kind of people--probably the only group you're going to find willing to overthrow the government is the Islamic jihadists--not a trustworthy group to consort with. Besides, they don't want to create a better government. They want a totalitarian government ruled by Islamic law. What to do? Keep contributing time and money to political groups who offer a positive change. When elections comes, vote for different political parties who advocate neutrality and true freedom. And keep posting all over the internet, trying to wake people up out of their slumber. The reason that we're in the shape we're in is because the vast majority of people are ignorant, apathetic and complacent. Change that, and you will have a nonviolent revolution in short order. It is not a quick fix, I grant you that, but I think there's still hope that it can work. Phil638 Member Post Number: 65 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 08:51 am:        hunter, I watched the making of "national treasure" the other day and it mentioned there that over half of U.S. congress, judges and so on are all knights templars/illuminati's. So if your voting in the U.S. I think whoever is going to be up for vote at anytime in the U.S. is going to be corrupt as well as having their adminstration full of corrupt figures too. It's probably always rigged too. phil Kingman Member Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 04:48 pm:        Phil, Your belief in the program you watched is just that, a program. Designed to draw you to a conclusion they have projected. Spend some time researching what you pass along as information and help stop the regurgitation of someones agenda laden spoof. If half of the judicial/congressional members were "knights templar/illuminati", control of the US without opposition would have created a constant rubberstamp society from the start of our independence, and that's not the history we have here. Yes, there are groups/secret societies that have enjoyed some success in directing the events that shaped this land at different times, but it's not a constant condition. We need some serious help at the moment, and what will happen next is surely going to be World changing, but create some original thinking by digging in for more info and break the programming software your being downloaded. a friend in america, shawn a friend in america Shawn Phil638 Member Post Number: 79 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 07:19 am:        Kingman, I didn't go basing my belief on a program that was designed to draw me to a conclusion they had projected me to believe in, as you say I did. I apologize but it wasn't the actual making of the film "National Treasure" where I heard it mention that statement that over half of U.S. congress, judges and so on are all knights templars/freemasons. It was on a Foxtel history documentary channel special called "National Treasure. History vs hollywood". I'm sure some others here might have seen it too. And for your information the person that made that statement was an official U.S. congressman who also claimed himself as being a freemason/knights templer too. phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 80 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 07:42 am:        Btw kingman, in regards to your statement - "If half of the judicial/congressional members were "knights templar/illuminati", control of the US without opposition would have created a constant rubberstamp society from the start of our independence, and that's not the history we have here." I hate to tell you but I believe that to be the case there as far as what I know of. Perhaps Dyson or someone else here could clear this up for us for the benefit of not misleading other readers here with false information. phil Kingman Member Post Number: 6 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 11:24 pm:        Hi Phil, If your going to "believe" what comes out of Hollywood, or worse, a politician, expect to be mislead. Over here we have a serious problem of an illegally installed government that has little regard for humanity. The corporations have completely bought the allegience of our top office and were seeing all the past gains in the preservation of the enviroment and social programs being erased. We can discuss this minor part of the knights templar/illuminati political situation and eventually reach an agreement. Or, I'd rather have outside perspectives such as yours on what the hell is going on with this runaway government here. We will all benefit if we could correct the current administration. a friend in america Shawn Phil638 Member Post Number: 87 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 10:48 am:        Hi Kingman, what I heard didn't come out of hollywood or come out of a misinformed politician either. The film "national treasure" had a lot to do with the history of the knights templar into America and then later into the U.S. congress. Hense why the documentry was called "National Treasure History vs Hollywood". It was a well documented documentry seperating fact from fiction in the film. It showed some parts of the film, but mainly about some of the true historical facts surrounding the knights templar into the U.S. and then into U.S. congress in the film. I don't remember the actual name of the congressman that they were officially interviewing for about 15 minutes in the documentry to comment on some of the true historical facts surrounding the kights templer from the past and from present day too. He claimed himself as being a knights templar/freemason and was officially talking on behalf of all the other knights templers within congress when he said that about half of the U.S. congress, the courts and so on are all knights templers. Do you consider that he would know what he would be talking about there since he obviously knew his history, was a knights templer and was an acting high official congressmen too and was also the person who Foxtel Discovery channel chose to be interviewed on the matter as he was considered as being a person that is in the know? I do, and on that basis I took that comment of his about how many knights templers are in U.S. congress as being true. I'm sure that maybe one of the other readers here will someday soon will also watch that show as shows are always being repeatly showed on cable TV and then hopefully they would validate what I say. No offense, but look back through the past 6 posts of ours here and you will see that I made one simple small error before of not being specific enough about the matter in my first post when I said before quote phil638 - "hunter, I watched the making of "national treasure" the other day and it mentioned there that over half of U.S. congress, judges and so on are all knights templars/illuminati's. So if your voting in the U.S. I think whoever is going to be up for vote at anytime in the U.S. is going to be corrupt as well as having their adminstration full of corrupt figures too. It's probably always rigged too." You came out firing and these were your first words - quote Kingman- "Phil, Your belief in the program you watched is just that, a program. Designed to draw you to a conclusion they have projected. Spend some time researching what you pass along as information and help stop the regurgitation of someones agenda laden spoof." I then replied with an apology - quote phil638 - "Kingman, I apologize but it wasn't the actual making of the film "National Treasure" where I heard it mention that statement that over half of U.S. congress, judges and so on are all knights templars/freemasons. It was on a Foxtel history documentary channel special called "National Treasure. History vs hollywood" And your still having a go at me here with your next post on the matter when you overlook the fact that you never watched the documentry to know what your talking about here. I also think that you know less about the freemasons/illuminati matter then I do too, but heres a good site for you to start doing some learning from i think - http://www.gaiaguys.net/index.html I already apologized to you before over me being not specific enough in my first post on the matter when I really shouldn't have even have had to apologize to you for that considering your first post back to me back there on the matter. Anyway I apologize to you if you feel/felt that I might've been on your back, back there at anytime. Please give me a break back Kingman and lets leave it at that. regards phil Kingman Member Post Number: 8 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 06:27 pm:        Hi Phil, I appreciate your apology, even though I don't know why you feel you should. You have neither offended me, nor have I felt you on my back. I'll only say this one statement. Here in America, we( everyone around me) take any information coming from the Fox company, and all it's tentacles, as highly spun, right-slanted and designed to embelish some angle of a broader agenda, especially if from a proclaimed 'one who knows" stinking politician spotlighted by Fox. And if I recall, Billy did mention that those who believe the New World Order conspiracy theory with any sort of illuminati connection are wrong and that they were more of a diversion than a source of any meaningful control. A more fantasy than actual group. For the program to place the illuminati as a political force in our government is, well laughable. I'm not saying you believe the theory. I'll check for the statement Billy made and see if I'm correct. If I've been at all abrasive, I wish to share my concern for your position being a rightful one to hold and I have no hard feelings. There are so many more important subjects out there than this string. a friend in america Shawn Tjames Member Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 12:11 am:        Hi Kingman and Phil638 I agree with Shawn on this one primarily because of what Billy stated: "Norm Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 02:01 pm Hi Billy, I was wondering if you are familiar with the theories behind the so-called New World Order? Part of the theory is as follows. Secret and not so secret groups and organizations are united in trying to create a One World Government, that will be secretly governed by them, while at the same time making it seem Democratic to the rest of the world. Is There anything you can say about these groups. Thank You, Norm ANSWER: Hi Norm, This is nonsense. It is the imaginary work of people who are trying to make money by writing fantastic books about something that is not true. They are claims and theories only. Norm Posted on Monday, August 26, 2002 - 06:25 am Hi Billy, In a follow-up question to my last question on the New World Order, I need to ask you what the following meant, as it relates to a secret and not so secret World Government? If there is no New World Order then what were these statements about? During the 232nd contact of November 17th 1989: Ptaah: "we have refrained from contacts with Americans, and will do so forever, unless it should happen that this nation and its government and secret government". Later in that same contact its states "those who are guided by religious sects or governments with plans aiming at world dominance, as is the case also with certain terrestrial organizations that strive for world dominance." In the book AN OPEN WORD verse 1369 it states the following. "During the New Age of the future 20th and 21st centuries the destructive beast bearing the number 666 would become active, that is, religious cults, unequal sects as well as secret organizations, would flood the entire mankind with their sectarian madness in delusional beliefs." Contact 241: Ptaah: They can generally be found in religious sectarian or world-reformist circles and circles of liars and frauds in matters pertaining to so-called contacts to alien beings, etc. The same applies to circles of channelers, mediums, Illuminati, among others. ANSWER: Hi Norm, "Secret Government" means organizations like the CIA, NSA, etc. etc. "Certain terrestrial organizations" means certain governmental organizations/parts. In Contact 241: UFO sects, etc. etc." Seriously people, especially ones who constantly attempt to inform us without doing so... I would highly recommend you take a step back and please look at what you actually know about the Meier case and see what develops through studying and then maybe after you have established fact from fiction through many already freely available sources within the figu and others within a reasonably priced series of pamphlets and books with everything from causes of overpopulation to begining meditation, or in this case confirmations of corruptness of our governments, then informing will naturally follow. However, simply because the majority of our worlds govts and its citizens don't heed warnings to avert REAL chaos and conflict but instead look out for only their best intrests does NOT mean there is a New World Order "shadow Govt". In America we have a CIA who's primary goal is to operate covertly or "secretly" and for example this enire Iraqi war has been done IN PLAIN SIGHT and very few citizens around the world have done anything EFFECTIVELY to stop the WAR... except the insurgents, but they're not stopping are they? Oh they're sure effective though! Lets stop wasting time about issues that that don't matter, and lets start focusing on how we can avert this third world war; and it's not going to be accomplished by people pointing the finger at how "SECRET" our govts. are, but by how WE STAND OUT AND EFFECTIVELY MAKE A DIFFERENCE from the ground up. And that is what this is all about friends. Saalome, Tjames Ascension Member Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 01:04 am:        actually kinman, most people just south of me(I live in Canada) believe the news as 100% truth. He also referred to Knights Templars much more than illuminanti, your just picking fights. Its not wrong to argue, but is is wrong to deny somthing that could be true. He sounds like he got fairly good information. Saying hes lying is silly if his refrence is legit. Edward Member Post Number: 530 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 02:43 pm:        Hi Tim and All... Here is some interesting Insight to your subject...which I posted once. Direct from Billy materials. If you stroll down to - Monitoring Systems - it mentions the "New World Order". USA as well as the European Union will play here a Significate role!! Naturally...they both can not make this manifestation come to reality by themselves. Just like they need Israel, and Great Britain, they both need each other to CONTROL The Planet.. IF...they succeed! As Mentioned Below: "Likewise, this terrifying vision foreshadows the 'New World Order' which, from ancient times onward, was linked to prophecies about an 'animal with the number 666' exerting immense power." And from a speech done once by Mr. Bush Senior, before a crowd, he personally mentioned the Creation of a "NEW WORLD ORDER"!!! It is all on TV broadcasting footage!! And documented in many Documentaries. Mr. Reagan as well as Mr. Bush Senior both focused themselves on this Agenda. Why Billy gave such an answer to Norm....? Well, that is the Home Work for every Human Being to Unravel for him/her self, would be my opinion...? Edward Member Username: Edward Post Number: 377 Registered: 05-2002 Rating: Votes: 1 (Vote!) Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 11:37 am: Hi there All.... Some more additional information. Here below is just the base of reason why The Beast/666 was just mentioned by many relating to Jesus Christ(and because it was the center of most of the topics). But of course, the title of The Beast/666 expands much broader. Clarification of a Defamatory Claim "On the other hand, the title Jesus Christ contains the value of all that is evil, excessive and murderous. Christ is the English version of the Old Greek word Christos and is a direct reference to ancient, mysterious cult activities. That is to say that the title Christos was applied to the actual cult rite during cult and unreal rituals, when anointment and unction sacraments were performed on sacrificial offerings and idols. If we speak here of anointments and unctions, it does not refer to ointments and oils, but the blood of infants, girls and virgins, who had been brutally slaughtered and their blood gathered in urns. But it is for all these reasons that even today the title Christ or Christos stands for absolute negativity, contempt for Creation and evil with the numerological value of 666." Published Periodically Vol. 1 No. 2 German printing: May 1995 English printing: Nov. 1995 Monitoring Systems "With their DSP monitoring system, America has taken the first step toward the horrifying, futuristic vision of total control over every human being on Earth. This vision signifies that terrestrials will soon be unable to take even a single step without being observed and controlled by an all-inclusive monitoring system, which would eventually entail the implanting of a coded chip into every person. The possibility then arises that an individual will be completely controlled and, ultimately, will always be observed and monitored; even a person's most private and intimate activities will be observed. The vision also implies that the European monitoring headquarters will be located in Brussels, Belgium, and managed and directed by the European Union (Europäische Union) as it is called today. The undisclosed implication is that a form of dictatorship will be established that results in the complete surveillance of every citizen --- a horrible vision, which is increasingly becoming apparent as a reality to anyone observing the world with open eyes. Likewise, this terrifying vision foreshadows the 'New World Order' which, from ancient times onward, was linked to prophecies about an 'animal with the number 666' exerting immense power. I intend to elaborate more extensively, in justifiable form, in the FIGU Newsletter on this prophecy and vision, along with many other important matters of which Man on Earth should be apprised. " From - 49 Questions - from the Billy Meier Contacts. Q-38.What does anti-logos mean? "Semjase: It is worth mentioning that the numerological value 666, the Anti-Logos, and the related lies and misrepresentations, were forced upon terrestrial human beings. Fanatics, liars, deceivers, religions, charlatans, and the power hungry thrust this deceitful name upon humans against their will. Hence, the value of the number 666 does not apply to an individual nor to the thinking processes and actions of a long-departed human being from Earth, but it refers to the figure of delusion it turned into. It has ruled the Earth as a religious cult figure ever since." Voice of the Aquarian Age. #51, WUV Strikes Back! "One can recognize from this that the animal or monster WUV 666 ["Weltumweltverschmutzung" - in English: World Environmental Polution] refers to the consequences generated by a specific human breed, the humans of the 20th Century who bear the "666" mark uopn their forehead, so to speak." Prophecies and Predictions. Thursday, January 29, 1976, sentence 1-14(Petel) "It is the Child of evil, the child of destruction, who is a deadly enemy of knowledge, wisdom, and truth - an enemy of love, peace, reverence, and harmony. It is the anti-logos in a myraid forms. The number 666 is the power of evil, for it opposes the truth about Creation, the truth about the spirit, and the compliance with Creation's laws and directives. The "IT" is "HE" -and he is embodied as the powerful who exist in lawlessness, tyranny, and bloodthristiness within the anti-logos. It is an evil power with deceivtful forces, miracles, signs, all types of seduction, trickery, lies and deceit regarding injustice, and false teachings among those who become lost within the erroneous knowledge of the anti-logos, instead of accepting the love of truth for their own salvation. The anti-logos is the child of destruction, evil, confusion, the prowling, lurking, and deadly. It is the seed of annihilation, the murderer of the truth - 666, the anit-logos." LOGOS=reason; that which is logical. Life in Spiritual and Physical "Truly, the Earthling has developed and "splendidly advanced" to the turning point of the approaching year 2000. He has taken himself to the brink of a deep abyss and placed himself before the fangs of - the beast of lunacy - driven by false doctrines and religious cults of malicious degeneration, which brought forth hatred, greed, vice, misery, lust, and bloodshed." Knowledge to you All.... Edward. Kingman Member Post Number: 9 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 03:32 pm:        Hi Tjames, I am more tuned to what you say here... "Lets stop wasting time about issues that that don't matter, and lets start focusing on how we can avert this third world war; and it's not going to be accomplished by people pointing the finger at how "SECRET" our govts. are, but by how WE STAND OUT AND EFFECTIVELY MAKE A DIFFERENCE from the ground up. And that is what this is all about friends." ...than being proved right. I'm all about what we CAN do and I do appreciate the fact that Phil has even cared to hear my point. There's much work to do where each of us live and the difference's we all deal with are the things that open my mind to other perspectives. If I could see what you see I would be twice the informed. If I could logically use the information I would be that much wiser. Thanks for your input Tjames. Exactly how do you pronounce this name of yours? a friend in america Shawn Kingman Member Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 04:06 pm:        Actually Ascension the fact that he 'originally' posted the names of these member groups as " nights templar/illuminati " is what I was exposing as not reality based. This attached to any statement defeats the statement as being a believeable source of information of a quality/purest value. I realize the other part could be valid and I have a understanding there are many knights templar or freemasons in our government, I just don't think there's a strong enough reason to focus attention on them. This other statement... "most people just south of me(I live in Canada) believe the news as 100% truth." I understand your meaning. Please see that I was refering to my circle of people. Americans are waking up notch by notch and seeing that Fox is towing a corporate line that Bush tows as well. I have to say if people here can't even see just one of this administrations many lies they are permanantly blind and can't be helped. a friend in america Shawn Tjames Member Post Number: 85 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 09:24 pm:        Hello friends, Here's something to chew at... I was unfortuantely watching television, specifically the fox channel on the nightly news and it apears this station is "drumming up support" for the war by supposid fair and balanced arguements by Mark Hyman (Mark being a representative for FOX news for THE POINT). They state that Sadam Hussein purchased uranium ore powder from Sudan(Africa), one of two trips he supposidly took in the late 90's. My point is not to argue the authenticity of fox news info (i'll save that) although they did not even clarify whether or not it could have been used for nuclear power plants but let the idea linger "see Sadam is a bad guy he purchased nuclear components, we did make the right choice by going into Iraq" (which by the way he does need some reflection therapy we are simply going about this entire operation the wrong way). My point is that if these supposed purchases were made in the late 90's, why are they telling us about it now? Although this was probably not the first time they have discussed this I'm not sure, but I only know it seems the timing of their current release is odd and hightly pro war. I'm convinced this is a major problem with American media being that they only tell you just enough to worry or sway you towards a particular opinion, it's definitely not fair or balanced. I'm normally being more useful and am able to tear myself from the tele but today was a full moon or something. Any way right after watching that stupid propaganda piece by FOX I suddenly realized that this isn't just a normal piece of prop. it's almost as if it was a "really pathetic War Cry" which signifies that not only is Bush losing support for the war but that people are awakening to the hard truth. Hopefully to the notion that the path for PROGRESS AND EVENTUAL PEACE is in the other direction. If i'm not mistaken I heard that people are more opposed to the war than ever before. Saalome, Tim Tjames Member Post Number: 86 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 11:00 am:        Hello Edward, All that quality info concerning anti-reasoning and its ties to religion is a very disturbing review. But, something I don't think I have discussed very recently is Monitoring Systems. I'm going to break the topic down a little. America is definitely not designated to being the only nation neglecting its survelance authorities, others like China, Russia, Israel etc. most definitely have spy sattelites and other technologies that we cannot speak of. However, Billy said something about America specifically criminally neglecting and misusing outerspace for monitoring and spying with space sattelites and such. 1 Pro- On the other hand we do need to develop far and in depth technologies, of course that goes without saying, but people tend to go to far by saying we shouldn't even have monitoring technologies. I think we should but not with our current intentions nor to the degree that Billy states America is engaging herself. Maybe if we as a country and a world turned our energy towards cleaning up our thoughts we would not have to spy on everyone because of our distrust. Clearly this is common sense. But it's not so common. The technologies could be implemented but used for more altruistic purposes like weather predictions, under ground, ocean, cellular, outer space exploration not to mention monitoring Earth satus for volcanic eruptions to save lives or prevent all types of catostrphes or to prevent event delays. I know they have sophisticated lens and optics which could be put in schools and even laser technologies for everyday uses and for occasions as well. Con- The govt can and is using the the spy equip. for studying in an unauthorized by its citizens sly and underhanding "peeping tom" fashion where they find out a couples most intimate details like others have stated before. To what extent are they watching is what some might wonder? And even more important, how much worse is it going to get? When will our govtments start reasoning... of course never, unless we stop this neglect ourselves. Perhaps the beginnings of the resolution will happen if four factions (a prophecy) of the U.S. break up into civil war. That can't be good but it might loosen the knot that America's govt has on the world. With good reasoning and "innere kampfe" which means the inner fight/strife we can tear down the walls of delusion and insanity and start molding the foundations for lasting society which can only happen through trust. Saalome, Tim Kingman Member Post Number: 11 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 05:07 pm:        Bush is not a smart man. Obviously. To think he even makes a single descision is wrong. The corporate entities decide what gets attention and what is ignored. More specifically the military industrial complex imbedded in the pentagon, and other US security departments, push the agenda of the Bush administration. VP Dick Cheney is the frontman with Donald Rumsfeld and others as Cheney's yes men. The main agenda isn't just oil, isn't just positioning in the Middle East, and isn't just being the superpower bully. The real goal is the use of thier(military industrial complex) technology. So war itself is the desired result. And winning is not necessarily high on the list. The military's stocks of weaponry/ammo and field gear need to be used for the corporations to be able to sell more products/supplies so thier stockholders are satisfied. War uses these up nicely. The US will end up spending 2-400 billion dollars on Iraq. The main benefactors are the likes of Haliburton (Cheney was CEO before taking office) and defense contractors who are awarded no bid contracts by Bush inc. Billions are unaccounted for. Recently Bush signed a long awaited energy bill. Suddenly the Democrats are now singing praise for Bush on this issue, and the growing concern for the war gets little attention. Why? Because this energy bill is ballooned will porkbelly pet projects designed by the congressional reps. worth millions to each of thier states. These are the rewards for the members of congress for thier being complacent and just looking the other way regarding the many improprieties and illegal actions taking place under Bushes term. The veto power of Bush has not been used yet. This is unheard of. A corporate rubberstamp. There are no true differences of the two political parties. They both want to control the taxpayers taxes while seeming as if they are working for the publics good. To understand this political system's way of lubricating the sticky points so war can happen I point to silly pet tricks. Pet owners teach a new trick to thier animals by rewarding the animal with a treat along the way. Soon the trick is learned and the happy owner shows off the trick to friends and neighbors. This analogy can be applied to Bush inc. and his congress. This energy bill is the treat. Congress subdued is the trick. I get ill when I think of how morally weak the politicians of this country are. a friend in america Shawn Edward Member Post Number: 531 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 09:29 am:        Hi Tim and Shawn... Very well said! You both have the accurate perceptive of the situation. I, myself have not very much to add. Good to know that there are people like you both absorbing ALL That IS...in our daily life. Shawn, Politics and politicians here, are just the SAME. One can only Trust the "Social Orientated" parties here, which are in most cases very small parties, but Do A LOT of GOOD to humanity in need. I am not that Keen...on parties that wear Expensive Suites, Shoes and Ties..and what not(BLING...BLING.......)!! They are in most cases FAR...from Human Wisdom or Knowledge. Those are Still "Fixated" and "Rusted" in the Material Aspects of life, alas. Still of a Lower Consciousness in Being...and Typical to expect from Younger Spirit-forms. So, as you can notice, Our present Politicians here...are NO different.. than yours at home. Well, after all...they(Christian/Right Liberal coalition) too...went to War In Iraq, and ARE just a Guilty...as Mr. Bush and Co...and Other Allies. Even the Common People here are not at ease with the global situation, just like the Americans With Open Eyes..that SEE THE LIES around them. Even the Common People here SEE...they are becoming more and more SLAVE...of our government. And SEE just like the Americans With Open EYES...that a "Collision" is inevitable. Thus, when the time comes, we here will experience the same as you! With out doubt. Just last night Mr.Rumsfeld said he will send another 1000 or more forces to Iraq! And he says the War situation is UNDER CONTROL! My Heart goes out to the families of these forces...and their opposition. BOTH being Victims...of the GREED of those whom so call...Lead us. WE..as Tax payer should have More Say..than they. They must not forget...that they ARE on OUR Salary-List!! So, WE PAY THEM. So, if they Mismanage, THEY SHOULD BE FIRED!!! And have NO Golden Handshake....what so ever....as said in political terms. They should not even get a Handshake of any kind!! If there is no Change in Consciousness and Conscience and Destiny, surely it Will be "Curtains Time"...for All Mankind. My parents are in the late 80ties and both, and their families, have been POWs(3 years) of the war in Asia; Destiny has been Good to them both...but not to their families. They both come from large families of some 8-10, and not even half on each side survived the war. So...we can not really Imagine...what and how they feel inside. Surely...their Spirit is Shattered by their experiences, but...in Conscious...they are Strong, and to have made it up to their 80ties and over. So, if I see the war events happening today, I think of THEM. And is a good example to NOT have war. Just a couple of weeks ago, I watched a documentary of the American Hollywood Film Industry. They STILL, get involved with the Army, and other Warfare branches...and even THE PENTAGON...to make PROPAGANDA Public Motion Pictures...to attract new recruits! In this manner, they "Brainwash" OUR KIDS...so to speak, in showing how Great it is to be a "KILLING MACHINE!!" And than a KILLING MACHINE...without Scruples! Take any war motion pictures TODAY...Surely....one of the mentioned above have a hand in it!! So, we must STOP them(government...etc.) first from Influencing OUR KIDS...in such a Negative Destructive manner, not? The Henoch Prophecies hit the nail on the head when it mentioned "The KILLING MACHINES!!" Programming OUR KIDS to KILL...Without any Conscience..what so ever. This all makes me think of the Monster of Frankenstein. In the end, the Monster of Frankenstein Eliminated His Own Creator!!: Professor Frankenstein...himself. So, the above mentioned Scenario....will Surely..."Back Fire"... just as it is also mentioned in Henoch's Prophecies. Edward. Jo_jo Member Post Number: 65 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 05:09 pm:        A large portion of Americans that are now opposed to the war in Iraq are disposed this way only because America is clearly not winning the war on terrorism. Americans do not tolerate losers well. If things were going better for them in Iraq, support of the war would not be in doubt. Phil638 Member Post Number: 93 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 06:35 pm:        Hey, has anyone noticed all the recent alien abductions films and alien sightings properganda and stuff being shown recently over the past few months on foxtel cable TV? This coincides with the current big hollywood film "war of the worlds" too. Any idea who would be behind all this alien propaganda push? Also I noticed that all the material in reference to all the alien claims and stuff are all false too. Is the U.S about to announce to the world public sometime soon about the validity of the alien factor perhaps? I wonder if this might be to raise more money for their starwars defence program to further extend their militry might with the purpose of further dominanting world power or perhaps its for something else. It it possible that the U.S. (militry?) has finally woken up to the fact that not all ET's visiting earth should always be considered as being friendly and have been doing all this perhaps because they might be getting scared of a possible unfriendly ET visit? I think the first reason is probably the true reason why their doing it, but I don't really know much about these kind of matters anyway. phil Kingman Member Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:24 pm:        Hi Phil, Here's what I have recently filtered out of all the info/disinfo designed to control our reality, all based on a military that requires an enemy to focus on. Once the Soviet Union collapsed we focused our weaponry buildup and such on the " terrorists " enemy. And when that blows over we will have built up the reasons to see China and it's global desires as the reason for the next level of weaponry buildup and superpower domination. This brings us to the last great reason for the US military to maintain it's superior unbalanced position as the world police force. The fear that we are eventually going to be attacked by a alien invasion. ET will be our reason to build our future space-based weapons and why were seeing such 'alien as the enemy' shows. Honestly I don't have a clue as to what the US gov. really knows about the future of earths relationship with ET's and the ET's true desires. There are to many unknowables for anyone to soundly project what the future holds regarding our eventual alignment in the galactic field. But, you can guarantee our military industrial complex will feed the fuel of the "badguy" ET who are in a 'coming to control humanity' senario, thus perpetuating the necessary investment of taxpayers billions and billions, and the increase of our national debt. I 've gathered this over the last decade of watching the designing of our military's position and form. The reason's may be against nature at first, but I bet the will of all the people of the world united in thought can remake the end results useful as a defensive form for all. There's other crappy endings I'm sure you can envision. a friend in america Shawn Phil638 Member Post Number: 97 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 10:01 am:        thx kingman, thats very interesting all that there. I myself have wondered many times what the U.S. militry honestly thinks about all the dire prophecies of the meier contacts related to their own country? I mean, they must surely know that all that the material in the meier contacts is valid, surely they must be sweating it out a bit too. phil Jacob Moderator Post Number: 394 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 12:08 pm:        Sweet Neocon Lyrics of the newest Rolling Stones Album You ride around your white castle, On your little white horse You lie to your people, and blame it on your war of course You call yourself a Christian, I call you a hypocrite You call yourself a patriot, well I think you're full of $hit Oh, sweet Neo Con, What path have you led them on? Oh, sweet Neo Con, Is it time for the atom bomb? You parade around in costume, Expecting to be believed But as the body bags stack up, We believe we've been deceived The horror you've unleased, Will backfire with more grief When will you ever learn, Sweet Neo Con, as the world burns? Oh, sweet Neo Con, What path have you led them on? Oh, sweet Neo Con, Is it time for the atom bomb? Oh, sweet Neo Con, What path have you led them on? Oh, sweet Neo Con, Is it time to drop the bomb? More and more people seeing what is going on in the world ;-) Salome, Jacob Saalome gam naan ben uurda, gan njjber asaala hesporoona! Kingman Member Post Number: 25 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 03:38 am:        Here's one world leader with vision and more global concern than all the Bush admin. combined. This is a link to Venezuela's leaders speech to the UN Assembly recently. Chavez's comprehension of the powerful dynamics the US employs for it's selfish neo-con ideals (to control all the major routes and reserves of oil) brings a fresh preliminary plan to dissolve the US's stranglehold over the UN. Removing the UN from the US, and establish a equal forum eliminating the elitest format that currently defeats it's reason for existing. Here's the english translated link: http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1555 a friend in america Shawn Hunter Member Post Number: 166 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 03:41 pm:        "Here's one world leader with vision and more global concern than all the Bush admin. combined." Chavez sounds like any other politician to me. He speaks of being concerned by oil depletion, but that obviously doesn't stop him from selling his oil to any willing buyer and profiting from the transaction. The man is a hypocrite. Communism is a failed ideology, and given enough time, it will fail in Venezuela as it has failed in every other country. Chavez may speak of educating the Venezuelans and increasing their literacy--but I'll be he doesn't want them to read or write anything critical of his government. Besides, it's not the government's job to educate or to feed people. People must work for themselves. They must feed and educate themselves in order to advance spiritually--this is what the Plejarens have stated many times. Anything less leads to stagnation. Yes, Chavez gives a flowery speech, but his actions conflict with much of what he says. I don't trust him anymore than I trust Bush... Namaste, Hunter Jacob Moderator Post Number: 399 Registered: 01-2004 Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 07:33 am:        The day that the human race will be freed from the curses of cult-religion, politics and economics, that will be the greatest day. Politicians are like every group of people with power, they just want more power or keep the power they have. The society WORLDWIDE as we know it is coming to its end, the fossile fuels are depleting, religious unrest is growing bigger by the day and the gap between the rich (haves and have-mores according to Bush) and the poor is growing daily. Every political, religious, philosophical and ideological view that doesnt comply to the Laws of Nature and the Creation are not-life bearing, they dont bring wisdom, evolution and true progress, only and exclusively following the laws of the Creation in true inner and outer freedom may do that. Politics, money and cult-religion are opium for the people. Salome, Jacob Saalome gam naan ben uurda, gan njjber asaala hesporoona! Elvis New member Post Number: 1 Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 08:46 am:        Hello. I am new to this forum. I am not a sceptic. Like you, I am struggling to understand all this stuff. Do not misunderstand me. I'm no Billy Meier and have no desire to be. Contact forced itself upon me and unlike Billy Meier I have no idea who, or just how many different groups I am interacting with. I have been told that my first experience with whoever these people are that happened on May 13, 1979 was from someone who was "sent" by Semjase. And I do gain a lot of insight and see a definite "code" that survives the translation process into english. I wish I could read all the contact info in english. In reguards to the comments about 666 that was being discussed in earlier posts on this thread. There was a crop circle not that many years ago that measured 666 feet across and had and 18 foot wide ring or circle. I'd have to look it up to remember exactly the dimensions. There is an alpha numeric code where A equals 1 and B equals 2 etc. 6 is the f letter in the english language. 18 is the letter r. The saying is "the 6aith of the 6athers 6lows like a 18iver" or"the faith of the fathers flows like a river". Semjase may have been referring to events and to people that began around 81 million years ago from the perspective of us who are going forward in time. Beings going in the opposite direction timewise do not always make this clear when they speak about events either in the future or the past. Events that happen in their past are events that happen in our future. The 666 is a being that does exist in the future of others just as he existed in our past. Kingman Member Post Number: 26 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 09:22 am:        I'm not trying to put Chavez up on a pedestal and proclaim him as a savior of the poor people of Venezuela. The man is standing up to the US Gov. and surviving. He's got a moment of the worlds attention and he's being heard by other leaders who as of yet don't feel the US can be stood up to. Sure he's in a position of power and can direct his will to whom he decides. I'm not sure yet how he use's it. The propaganda slung at him nearly allowed a US backed coup to succeed. But the will of the people( who legally voted for him) stopped the power of the media lies and other devious acts from toppling him . There's something there. Like maybe a crack in the armor of the controlling elite. Here's another recent interview that is more about his country and the changes it's going thru. http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/19/1336214 I fully agree that he is a politician and that alone puts him in with the religious leaders and such, but exactly where are we supposed to look for the changes that this world needs. Compared to the examples we have in the US, Chavez seems like a breath of fresh air. I use that term lightly. Yes I know the real changes will come from each of us as we lead by examples for our neighbors. Any help from the ones who control the top will surely speed things up. If there are any leaders alive right now that we should research more, I would appreciate any clues to finding their story. a friend in america Shawn Hunter Member Post Number: 167 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 07:28 pm:        "The man is standing up to the US Gov. and surviving." Well, a lot of people have "stood up" to the U.S. government with words and speeches. He's no exception. "He's got a moment of the worlds attention and he's being heard by other leaders who as of yet don't feel the US can be stood up to." There are several leaders and several countries who have refused to participate in the "coalition" under U.S. military control in Iraq. The U.S. wanted them to join, and they refused. "Sure he's in a position of power and can direct his will to whom he decides. I'm not sure yet how he use's it." Seems to me that he's using it to benefit his own name and enhance his status on "the world scene". "But the will of the people" The will of the people can be extremely misguided at times. It was once the will of the people to legalize slavery. If the majority decides to hold a referendum and votes to legalize murder, does that suddenly make murder moral? You'll pardon me for not putting my faith in the will of the people. Chavez is a politician. Winning an election does not make someone a hero (usually it makes them a villian because they're corrupted by the power). "( who legally voted for him) stopped the power of the media lies and other devious acts from toppling him ." We can't even confirm that the election was legitimate. It looks like it was rigged--just like the election in the U.S. was: http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200508012206 "There's something there. Like maybe a crack in the armor of the controlling elite." Chavez IS the controlling elite my friend. "Here's another recent interview that is more about his country and the changes it's going thru. http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/19/1336214" Here's a report from a citizen of Venezuela that claims Chavez's thugs killed his mother and other unarmed protestors after the election: http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005494 After reading that, do you still think Chavez is a man of the people? "but exactly where are we supposed to look for the changes that this world needs." To ourselves. As Gandhi said, "We must be the change we wish to see." "Compared to the examples we have in the US, Chavez seems like a breath of fresh air." Chavez is no different from the corrupt politicians we have here in the U.S. "Any help from the ones who control the top will surely speed things up." It would indeed speed things up, but with the type of people the masses elect to leadership positions, it isn't likely to come. "If there are any leaders alive right now that we should research more, I would appreciate any clues to finding their story." Gandhi is one of the few leaders worth researching. But, again, we must look to ourselves and look to educate and enlighten our fellow citizens into holding their government(s) accountable. People are simply too gullible--that is why we have irresponsible leaders. If the majority of people begin to question authority, this will begin to change. Hunter Member Post Number: 168 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 07:37 pm:        Here's another credible article claiming there was massive vote fraud in Venezuela's last election: http://www.militaresdemocraticos.com/articulos/en/20040817-01.html Kingman Member Post Number: 28 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 11:45 am:        Hi Hunter, Thank you for taking the time to actually respond to my posting highlighting Hugo Chavez. I in turn am compelled to research the links you offered. And I did. First I went to this link, http://www.militaresdemocraticos.com/articulos/en/20040817-01.html and read that article and all the other links that media outlet offered. They sure had their opinion of Chavez spelled clearly out. After I finished all the articles, I realized I couldn't account for any opposing opinions in any of the items read. So I searched another South American media site called ' Narco News '. Fortunately the articles had more of both sides of the issues concerning Venezuela. In all honesty, when I first read your replys, I thought I had posted the previous ones in haste, worried I didn't fully delve into the situation in that country. I feel relieved now that I searched even more sites and sensed I was getting a little clearer about the political situation there. Your choices were very helpful in this process of learning more about what I posted and I again thank you for the motivation. What I did learn, now from several different sources, is, there appears to be an American influence being squeezed out of it's once held control of Venezuela. We all can agree that power corrupts, I hope. The oil reserves in Venezuela are large and the US makes no qualms about what they would like to do about attaining control. I have to say I got a completely different view than what you are implying. Based on what your links reported, Chavez is completely corrupt and is creating a police state of anti-constitutional ammends. Yes, he is reforming the country and changing the civilian landscape to the demise of the white elites. It is also note worthy to acknowledge the ones who are complaining, have a difficult time of maintaining any sustained effort of opposition against what is happening. A telltale sign that the effort is backed by money/greed and not supported by the poorer citizens . A country that is unstable is what the US is striving for. Hunter, try, if you have the time for it, reading some of the other sites of info I'm suggesting. Truth even hides in a lie. It's just a easier time deciphering truth by actually reading equal sides of a story, and sifting the grain from the chaff. All one sided arguments are instantly subject for deeper inqueries. I'm not going to back Chavez yet, and I thought I was clear enough on that in my previous post. My quotes: "I'm not trying to put Chavez up on a pedestal and proclaim him as a savior of the poor people of Venezuela." "I fully agree that he is a politician and that alone puts him in with the religious leaders and such" I was allowing room for more information before giving any sort of approval of all his actions. Were all imperfect as it is. Also, it really is a disservice to me not to include the quotes I gave in their full meaning and context. You quote me: "but exactly where are we supposed to look for the changes that this world needs." Your response to it: "To ourselves. As Gandhi said, "We must be the change we wish to see." " If you would of kept my complete statement it says right before that: "Yes I know the real changes will come from each of us as we lead by examples for our neighbors" Thus I describe the same thing Gandi does in my own words. I am surely perplexed at this response of yours. And this quote: "Compared to the examples we have in the US, Chavez seems like a breath of fresh air." You reply: "Chavez is no different from the corrupt politicians we have here in the U.S." You left off my next sentence that states: "I use that term lightly" and again I also said in the post... "I fully agree that he is a politician and that alone puts him in with the religious leaders and such" That translated means: He's in with the other crooks. I attempt to be as simple as I can in what I state. I will encourage myself to be more careful next time and clarify what it is I am saying with emphasis on straightforwardness of design( was that just a oxy-moron. LOL!) While I will say that I'm not ready to proclaim Chavez a freedom fighter, I will claim him a US basher. All the more to him as well. Don't get me wrong here, I am worthy to my country. We can easily see that our US GOV. is not a healthy caretaker of this planet. The corporate influence has completely overtaken the lobbyist forum of our legislative house's, and regardless of whether your a Dem. or Republican, they are buying their votes. The link you post here: http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005494 is another good example of onesided journalism. I read and re-read that article and all the readers comments posted( at least the ones the site allowed to be posted). Now if I had stopped right there I would truly be siding against this Chavez character. We owe it to ourselves to always find the other side of the story to create a proper filter for the truth. To balance out your suggestions, research Venezuela at these sites. Narconews.com www.venezuelanalysis.com Trinicenter.com Here's a direct link to a Chavez article: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/04/13/ED69251.DTL I hope this added info will help for a better perspective we need about our world we live in. I know I've been wrong plenty of times. It is imperative that we each be reasonably informed of what we offer up as facts, thus not unintentionally misleading the readers with a short attention span. I always am honored by anothers response to my words. It shows that it does matter what I think, be it right or wrong. I am encouraged by your attention, thank you again. a friend in america Shawn Hunter Member Post Number: 170 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 06:18 pm:        "What I did learn, now from several different sources, is, there appears to be an American influence being squeezed out of it's once held control of Venezuela." I looked over the other sources. Of course, it's always good to study all sides of something, but I didn't see any stories on an American influence. Is it possible? It's certainly possible. The CIA loves to "play behind the scenes" all over the world. They have no qualms about using violence and have assassinated many leaders around the world (including some of our own). I would be very interested to know the political leanings of some of the authors on venezuelanalysis.com - I'm thinking they may be fervent communists - if so it raises the bias issue on their side as well. What seems to be a fact is that troops loyal to Chavez killed peaceful protestors after the last election. That's not exactly "freedom of expression is alive and well in Venezuela." "The oil reserves in Venezuela are large and the US makes no qualms about what they would like to do about attaining control." How do you define control? Chavez offers a price and we still buy. Are you saying Chavez's opposition will sell to the U.S. cheaper? Are you saying they will welcome a U.S. invasion? If this is what you believe, do have any evidence to support your belief? "I have to say I got a completely different view than what you are implying. Based on what your links reported, Chavez is completely corrupt and is creating a police state of anti-constitutional ammends." As far as being anti-constitutional, I'm not familiar enough with Venezuela's constitution to say if that would be such a bad thing. If the U.S.S.R. had a constitution--I would say being anti-constitutional in that situation would be a good thing. Chavez is a collectivist, which I disagree with. Communism is a failed ideology and will fail regardless if the majority of people want to implement it. We have thousands of people in this world who want to view government as some type of parent, rather than take responsibility as an adult and do their own work and take care of themselves. That is the kind of mentality communism fosters in my opinion and it leads to spiritual stagnation. "Yes, he is reforming the country and changing the civilian landscape to the demise of the white elites." Elites are bad no matter if they're white, black or purple. Chavez and his inner circle may eliminate the elites opposed to them, but they in turn will make themselves the new elites. "Reforming the country" could have several meanings. If you're saying making the country more communist in nature is a good thing, I'd have to disagree. Here's a quote of one of the articles you linked to: "Chavez broadcast his weekly television program from a recently seized ranch, which his government plans to turn over to benficiaries of the land reform program." The author seems to have no problem with Chavez seizing anything he wants. Any property rights that existed in Venezuela now appear to be toast. Stealing in any form is immoral. The Plejarens don't advocate robbing from the rich to give to the poor. Chavez is a thief who obviously likes being "generous" with other people's property. Good luck bringing foreign businesses into the country if they can't be secure in the property that they own... "It is also note worthy to acknowledge the ones who are complaining, have a difficult time of maintaining any sustained effort of opposition against what is happening." Well some of the "complainers", as you call them, have been killed. That tends to quiet people down somewhat. "A telltale sign that the effort is backed by money/greed and not supported by the poorer citizens ." Look, I wouldn't doubt for a second there are U.S. intelligence operatives in Venezuela trying to influence things in Washington's favor. Greed is pervasive in the world, true, but if you compare standards of living for people--the majority of people live better lives in more capitalistic societies. This is not to say I'm supporting capitalism as the answer to the world's economic problems--I'll give the old saying again as a disclaimer--"Capitalism is the worst economic system--except for all the other economic systems on earth." What I'm for is freedom. People own themselves and they own whatever they create through their own labor and NO ONE should have the right to take it from them. Politicians claiming they can "fix" things are often working on problems that they themselves created to begin with. Take a look at the following link--you've probably never heard these arguments before: http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/wua9.shtml "A country that is unstable is what the US is striving for." I don't see instability as their ultimate goal. Instability is unpredictable--and politicians like "a sure thing." The U.S. is striving for control of the world economy--but it's not all-out-war for the most part. They want to "muscle" people into doing their bidding. A major sleight-of-hand is the use of fiat currency. Stop that and you stop many of the money games being played. I know the following link is a long read, but if you have the time I hope you'll look it over: http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/rutoc.html Namaste, Hunter Kingman Member Post Number: 30 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 09:40 am:        I also sensed the bias on the sites I refered you to. The difference being the other point of view was included at these sites. I simply felt less of an agenda present. Your statement, "I'm thinking they may be fervent communists - if so it raises the bias issue on their side as well." I'm sorry but the term communist is just not relevent in todays world, period. This term is one of the many coined to demonize anyone who was not in favor of the prevailing world view. Another of the "McCarthyism's" which don't belong on the world stage. I will say that a focus on the countries needs of it's citizens can create the welfare image and some of that is going on. Communism only works on paper, the lure of power defeats any true attempt at implementing it's premise. Your quote, What seems to be a fact is that troops loyal to Chavez killed peaceful protestors after the last election. That's not exactly "freedom of expression is alive and well in Venezuela." Have you never heard of an opposing force acting as the legal entity and causing an injustice to give their position another reason to oust the current government. The situation you refer to is still not decided as who was really responsible. For either of us to claim we know who did it is not realistic. A quote from an article I linked you to, that you posted, Here's a quote of one of the articles you linked to: "Chavez broadcast his weekly television program from a recently seized ranch, which his government plans to turn over to benficiaries of the land reform program." The land that was recovered was originally held by a foreign government(British) and eventually passed on to a private British holding company. And they didn't reclaim the complete lot, just the area that wasn't being put to use in accordance to what the land reform laws require. These laws had been in effect since 1998 and only recently enforcement was finally getting past all the court proceedings. The information was there in the links. A search for such info can also be found at www.prisonplanet.com keyword ' Venezuela '. Your quote, "Good luck bringing foreign businesses into the country if they can't be secure in the property that they own..." Ironically, Venezuela is seeing a surge in foreign investment. One reason is there low national debt and nonreliance on the IMF or World Bank. With the rise in oil prices per barrel and the increase in the royalty taxes on the oil companies, Chavez has paid down the countries debt and raised his countries ability to attract outside investors. Surely any smart investor would be aware to not engage in situations opposed to the land reform laws being enforced. Your quote, What I'm for is freedom. People own themselves and they own whatever they create through their own labor and NO ONE should have the right to take it from them. Politicians claiming they can "fix" things are often working on problems that they themselves created to begin with. Take a look at the following link--you've probably never heard these arguments before http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/wua9.shtml Yes I have heard these statements before. If you would read deeper into the links I pointed you to you would find the programs that he's instituting. They require individual responsibility. One goes as such...a community meeting is arranged consisting of mainly citizens, who are informed of money the government is willing to invest in each neighborhood if the citizen can isolate what the community most needs to help itself. Mostly they begin rebuilding schools, cleaning up water sources, and whatever the people can decide together that is of a benefit to all. An audited fund is created to start and maintain the programs which only continues if the ideas and needs are met. Now I know those in power do these things to appear as if they are different than those who ruled before. Only time will tell, as I said before, I'm not convinced of his image as a true reformist. So far he's a populist with disdain for the catholic church and the US government. my quote, "A country that is unstable is what the US is striving for." your response, "I don't see instability as their ultimate goal. Instability is unpredictable--and politicians like "a sure thing." This doesn't have anything to do with politicians. It's the underhandedness of the people who control the IMF/World Bank. They set up shop and strip down the infrastructsure that causes a country to soon be economically vulnerable. Chavez refuse's the advances of these banking institutions and they are not happy. A search on Google for Greg Palast will point you towards the banking info, or at www.prisonplanet.com I feel we can learn a great deal if we pay attention to this current power struggle. The final link you gave is a long read and so far a valuable one at that. Thank you for that gem. The writer takes a very different approach to describing how we got to be where were at. Aggression in all the forms it takes has only created the problems we were trying to fix and is surely one of the greatest obstacles we need to correct as a species. You have caused me much learning. I am thankful that you are not willing to allow my postings to go unquestioned. There's much more we still have yet to uncover. a friend in america Shawn Edward Member Post Number: 535 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 05:19 am:        Hi All... Some facts about Mr.Chavez and Mr.Bush. Of course, Mr.Chavez may want to keep the oil prices up. Even though Mr. Bush may say it has nothing to do with Oil. Why do you think, Mr.Bush wants to Oust Mr.Chavez: To manage the Venezuelan OIL and just to fill his own pocket with the CASH that flows from it; and with his PAWN Venezuelan friends he, Mr.Bush...wants to install there. Sure it IS ALL OIL RELATED and a Strategic jumping-board for the Bush Oil Administration to further expand its so-called - Democracy(Hypocrisy) - abroad/further...over the globe. Washington can just not have it...that the OPEC...has power ABOVE THEM!! It is Washington whom wants to dominate the OIL as well as global matters. Seems they feel themselves of being "SUPERIOR" than any other country on our globe. So, when you dominate OIL...You dominate THE WORLD!! Not? Just as mentioned in the Henoch Prophecies: which Hit The Nail On The Head. Below shows a chart why Venezuela is so very very important to Washington. It being the Third & Fourth in the line of importing Oil and Petroleum to the USA. And, again, Mr.Bush and Co, would rather have one of their PAWNS in office in Venezuela than to have Mr.Hugo Chavez; whom wants to let the country decide for themselves what they do with their oil than to let Washington decide for them!!! We all have realized by now what happened to Iraq, Not? Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries) (Thousand Barrels per Day) Country Jul-05 Jun-05 YTD 2005 Jul-04 Jan - July 2004 CANADA-- 1,624 1,705 1,608 1,667 1,628 SAUDI ARABIA-- 1,499 1,598 1,522 1,622 1,422 MEXICO-- 1,497 1,616 1,558 1,603 1,598 VENEZUELA-- 1,327 1,292 1,329 1,228 1,335 NIGERIA-- 1,047 1,012 1,041 1,020 1,094 IRAQ-- 615 608 558 593 648 ALGERIA-- 325 292 214 297 213 RUSSIA-- 324 116 264 206 137 KUWAIT-- 272 184 198 268 232 UNITED KINGDOM-- 259 269 232 264 262 ANGOLA-- 219 397 399 355 297 ECUADOR-- 217 288 278 249 205 COLOMBIA-- 172 227 147 83 147 BRAZIL-- 138 212 88 95 62 GABON-- 124 64 120 117 137 Total Imports of Petroleum (Top 15 Countries) (Thousand Barrels per Day) Country Jul-05 Jun-05 YTD 2005 Jul-04 Jan - July 2004 CANADA-- 2,079 2,155 2,121 2,178 2,146 SAUDI ARABIA-- 1,689 1,623 1,597 1,655 1,463 VENEZUELA-- 1,623 1,593 1,590 1,495 1,593 MEXICO-- 1,593 1,746 1,648 1,676 1,668 NIGERIA-- 1,156 1,089 1,131 1,102 1,170 IRAQ-- 615 608 558 593 650 RUSSIA-- 587 350 452 377 265 ALGERIA-- 535 574 467 581 468 UNITED KINGDOM-- 404 421 376 417 404 VIRGIN ISLANDS-- 319 331 326 379 325 KUWAIT-- 278 184 206 277 239 ECUADOR-- 226 312 287 277 222 ANGOLA-- 219 397 406 370 308 NORWAY-- 206 357 242 318 261 COLOMBIA-- 205 251 180 136 177 Note: The data in the tables above exclude oil imports into the U.S. territories. Source:http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/comp any_level_imports/current/import.html Why do you think that Washington Ousted Saddam Hussein, also? FOR THE OIL, of course!! Some months before the US and Allied invasion to Iraq, Saddam Hussein, Stagnated shipping oil to the west for about a month; he wanted to show how powerful he was with his own oil and he wanted to especially - Kick Washington In The Behind -...by doing so! Well, we all know the out-come of this scenario...alas. Washington was so Trampled On Their Toes..they decided it was time to invade. Edward. Kingman Member Post Number: 31 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 11:33 am:        The Saudi citizens, these last ten years, have become more and more anti-American, forcing the US military to find strategically available land for new base's in the Middle East. Add to that the switching of dollars to euro's for Saddam's oil, coupled with Israelis desire to rid itself of Saddams army, and Iraq is now being milked of all it's worth. Of course the oil was at the top of the list. In Venezuela, the fact that Chavez is alive at all is amazing. If he survives to finish his term in office his chances of effecting any long term reform will be difficult at best. I am watching this powerplay between the one side of the US, IMF, World Bank and Globalists verses the stubborn resourceful leader of a lone country. Chavez also has the backing of OPEC, which already has helped save his life once. This senario is a tremendous source for learning what timeframe that the US forces are working with. If they cool down there plans for that region other more obvious moves will be more likely. Like Iran for instance. It seems we have (US) already began building base's near the borders of a certain Latin American country creating a jump off point for mischievious actions in the region. a friend in america Shawn Tjames Member Post Number: 97 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 10:01 pm:        Hello friends, Has anyone heard the latest news as of 10-7-2005 concerning the return of some American troops, for instance, I am from Ohio (in United States for the curious) and today in Lima Company in Lima County (which is just how America sub-divides her states into easier to manage territories) had its troops returned home. It couldn't have been more than 50 troops. I was wondering if anyone thought this was odd since the Lima company has had horrible casualties plus Bush's approval ratings are Down. It could be possible that the Military sent this group of young men home; many of whom are 19-21, simply as a political game! On one hand this may settle the nerves of a growing number of families becoming more opposed to the war daily (approval ratings for war @ 33%) and on the other hand this could be the result of the Military pulling off a "Saving Private Ryan" operation where the federal govt. could be simply preventing a town from complete emotional shock and devestation thus ultimately from rebellion! A moderate form of public opinion manipulation here I think! If not, then why o why didn't the Govt./Military releave a sizable portion of the Companies and Regiments currently serving on a national scale? Or have they?? Theory: They (Federal Govt/Milit.) will when a particular geographical area clearly establishes an opposition or shows evident restlesness and or impatients... a tell tale sign that this region could becom unstable. Of course any troops comimg back home is a good thing but not if it's just for political control! Saalome is the way, Tim J Edward Member Post Number: 544 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 03:10 am:        Hi Shawn... Very perceptive of you. You have studied the case very very clearly and to the points. Can you imagine, that the oil productions before the invasion of Iraq was TWICE the mentioned on the mentioned chart in my posting. To days government and allies, just can not bring it back to its full capacity, because of the "sabotage" of pipelines...etc....etc. So, the "Resistance" is still great from the insurgents. But of course, we do not hear about this. There is very much "Censor"..as I can make out of this all. Just a couple of days ago, I watched a documentary about the oil crises and how it damaged the USA tanking stations economy. It showed that in some parts of the USA...One had to pay as much as $6,- tot $9,- a gallon!! In principle, this goes beyond One's comprehension. I never knew about this until I saw the documentary. So, I guess, when Saddam Hussein stopped shipping oil to the west(USA) he surely hit many below the belt...so to speak. And so, many had to pay the above mentioned a gallon. But of course, One with OPEN EYES, as Billy would say, and that Knows better...KNOWS...Saddam is not the Cause, but the Hierarchy of Oil Barons abroad, whom want to still make THEIR Profit, and thus..Exploit their own people into buying the gallon for such a ridicules Inhuman price, not? Even here in my country, One can notice this in the energy prices that have gone up. We have to pay some 300 to 400 euros additionally a year now...just because of the Oil Crises!! And this is INSANE!!!(that is what you get having a Pro Bush government!!!-They Wheel and Deal their own way) And yes, you've guessed it: WE THE PEOPLE have to pay for the gaps and thus, be "Exploited" by our Hierarchy of Oil Barons!! It is indeed TIME...for the People to Wake-Up and SEE the Facts as they are. Edward. Kingman Member Post Number: 36 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 05:54 pm:        It seems that the real strategy that the oil barons use to quadruple their profits, is to make the worlds oil supply always in jeopardy, always teetering on a virtually never ending shortage. They ignore the need for more refineries, have wars in oil rich countries where the flow is interrupted, create a strike in the oil industry of a major producer, post fear inducing stories of " Peak " oil, and other such methods, thus increasing the profitability of each barrel sold. In this mode they sell less yet make much more. The Baron's political partners spend millions on getting themselves elected to posts that pays them peanuts. They recoup their investment by advocating the taxpayers money towards programs that have a indirect unseen reaction that refills the pockets of the elected official and his oil 'buddies'. These weasel's have honed their public images to appear as if they only live to serve and improve the lives of their voters. This system we allow is deathly ill and cancerous. And as this disease goes untreated the symptoms will rot our future and that of our childrens. You don't need to be exposed to this scourge to become another victim. Just being a quiet citizen is enough. a friend in america Shawn Edward Member Post Number: 545 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 03:03 am:        Hi Shawn.... Right to the point, Shawn. They are just like an Anti-Virus program working in the background, but in this case: everything of "Goodness, Truth and Wisdom" they deleted! They just do not wish their computer to work as it should, with Honesty and Truth. They do the Programming and we fallow what is be programmed. It is time, that they have No More Updates... Edward. Hunter Member Post Number: 171 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 09:16 am:        * I'm sorry but the term communist is just not relevent in todays world, period. Well, I think it clearly is relevant if the person follows a particular belief system. The Communist Manifesto gives detailed instructions on how to transform a democratic society into a communistic one--and it involves more government control. I don't think we should pay as much attention to someone's words (since they could lie) and instead look at their actions. Same as with Bush. Kingman Member Post Number: 37 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 01:02 pm:        So true Edward, I really find it sad when I experience my parents repeating what is fed through them on the TV. Their concept of programming is that when you turn off the TV the program stops. It's friggin' software that has now been downloaded on to their harddrive/brain. Not being technically savy, they don't conceive of the correlation that each politically embedded statement they receive, everytime they watch their favorite program, backs up their harddrive. On holidays, I am the lone voice of reason amongst a house full of Republicans. They throw out the title " Liberal/Democrat " at me, but I put the same fire to that political group as well. It truly is sad when my brothers glorify war, especially in front of their children. When that happens, I just describe the real horrors of war and what happens to children in those situations. You should see how fast they change the subject. As far as them( Barons ) and " No More Updates " I see little change. They know when to quiet down. Then when we forget what their modis operandi was, they start up again. a friend in america Shawn Kingman Member Post Number: 38 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 01:24 pm:        The idea is relevant, it's just all the other junk that got attached to this term has created something quite different than what was originally meant. Also, there are very few regimes today thinking of implementing anything resembling communism. At least not that I know of. Descriptive terms these days are of little value sometimes. Look at our government here in the US. Were supposed to be a democratic republic, smells more like facisim now to me. a friend in america Shawn Mgilbo1 Member Post Number: 26 Registered: 09-2002 Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 02:42 pm:        I think we all know that the Gov't of the US is a piece of you know what. Thats a given. But being a US citizen, the people in general are very giving. But thats every country, not just the US. There isn't a gov't out there that is honest and has its TRUE citizens needs at heart. I guess the challenge is putting together a plan to take back our governments! In the US there are state and federal agencies and your never going to change leadership of a federal agency fast if at all. But I see a lot of potential in changing the local leadership in our states, cities and towns. Local gov't is very powerful and even more powerful than federal in many areas. My question to all of you is, how can we start taking back our gov't? Is it too late and were left with civil wars only? Do we have to die or kill to take our liberties back? If Billy can survive all the attacks on him personally and from around the world, can we be strong enough to make a change together? I think gov't is too strong today, especially since they have the military, police and secret agencies on their side to protect them. So my personal opinion is to beat them at their own game. We all should start running for office and political seats. The more of us we can get into power, the more we can change things for the better from within. What do you think? Any opinions? What do the Plajerans say about changing our political systems? } Mark Gilbo Kingman Member Post Number: 39 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 03:12 am:        Early in life, I led myself to believe that the 60's generation would slowly dilute the power structure of our government and the sign it happened would be the legalization of all the things that were prohibited. I think Mark asks a question that we each must surely answer for ourselves. I'm knowing first we must help the people who don't know they don't know. So many here. Spreading Billy's information is so critical I place it first above any other action a friend in america Shawn Newinitiation Member Post Number: 15 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 09:51 am:        Dear Mgilbo If my memory serves me correctly the plejarens did say that we need to replace the current leadership with the spiritual leaders by uniting together and putting a halt to the magalomanic ways that they are governing and that all changes first have to start with ourselves at an individual level, in other words we must first keep our own houses clean before we try to clean others. By changing ourselves into a more spiritually developed individuals we affect others around us for the positive and when more people become spiritualised the more appreciable differences we can make on the society as a whole. Lonnie Member Post Number: 89 Registered: 12-1999 Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 03:15 pm:        Hi Mark, We must be on the same wavelength. I was just thinking about the very same thing. According to Billy, those in positions of power must be replaced with decent responsible people who will rule in the best interests of their fellowman. I asked him how exactly we can do this and he said we must create a good voting system. Well, this would be a start but much more would be required on our part individually. It is apparent to me that we must begin on a small scale in a possible FIGU communty, centralized in the middle of the country. Here are a few suggestions on what we could do to start based on the opinions of experts (non FIGU related) who also oppose the present regime: All efforts to stop the Elite (corrupt in power) must be legal, such as: 1. Everyone must go to the poles in each election, and vote for their independent party candidates of choice. 2. No Independent party has enough money to defeat the Republicans and Democrats. Therefore, we must organize a Third Party. 3. Each third party should offer their best candidate. One month should be spent by these candidates presenting their case to the public. The next month should provide a Third Party Convention and debate between all independent candidates who seek office. All of these candidates names should then appear on the ballot at the primary elections held by the Democrats and Republicans. The top three candidates should then spend a month telling the people why they should be the party candidate. A run-off election should then be held with the top vote receiver becoming the party candidate. 4. The candidates that did not win should immediately file for either a Senate of House of Representatives race that they are eligible to participate in. 5. There should be an Independent Party candidate for every local, state and federal election position. 6. Once the independents have gained control of our city, state and federal governments, perhaps that is the time to eliminate the party system completely. 7. Every state that does not now have the right, should petition their state legislature for Initiative, Referendum and Recall rights. 8. Once each state has Initiative, Referendum and Recall rights, then petitions should be presented to demand the following: A. Every candidate for public office should run on their own efforts and merits, with financing only from individuals who have resided for at least 5 years in the district or area that they propose to represent. Violation of the new campaign financing proposal should be a felony with stiff monetary fines and jail time for the convicted offenders. B. All elections must be reduced to two months for the primary and one month for the general elections, and all voting must be on a Saturday and Sunday. C. All votes should be on paper ballots and should be counted by precinct Citizens Oversight Committees. The last place on each list of candidates on the ballots must be "NONE OF THE ABOVE", and if this is selected by a majority of the voters, a new slate of candidates must be submitted for vote, until one candidate receives 50% + one vote of all the votes cast. D. The Electoral College must be eliminated entirely with the President and Vice President elected by popular vote only. E. All this should be accomplished by a Constitutional Amendment approved by both houses of Congress and ratified by 38 states. F. Constitutional Amendments should not be done by a Constitutional Convention, because the Elite would take charge of the convention, and our Constitution would be eliminated, or changed so drastically that it would be unrecognizable. G. State and federal laws should be passed prohibiting anyone from being appointed, elected or otherwise employed in any public office or position that has been a member of any secret organization for the previous five years, including the Klu Klux Klan, Black Panthers, Islamic Jihad, Red Brigade, Illegal Religious Cults, Bilderbergs, Bohemian Club, Council on Foreign Relations, and/or Trilateral Commission. These laws should exclude the typical "grandfather" clauses, so that once these laws are passed, anyone who meets this definition must resign immediately. If anyone wanted to belong to these groups and hold public office, then these organizations must change their rules so that every meeting, including board of director's meetings, must be opened up to attendance by the public and the press, with two weeks advance notice published in the local press stating the date, time, and place of all meetings, along with the agendas of all meetings. H. The Federal Reserve Act must be repealed, and the exclusive right to create money and credit must be restored to the Congress and US Treasury Department, as stipulated in the US Constitution. I. The present practice of "fractional reserve" banking requiring only 10% reserves for banks to make loans should be eliminated. Within a one year period, this rate must be raised to 100% reserves. Without this change, banks would continue to have the ability to create money and credit, which should be exclusively reserved for the Congress and Treasury Department. J. The US national debt should be completely eliminated by a one-time exchange of non-interest bearing Treasury Notes for all of the outstanding interest bearing Treasury Bonds. K. The Treasury Department should be designated as the sole lender to all states, counties and municipalities for capital projects that are now financed by municipal bonds, and the like. The rate charged for these loans should be fixed by law at 3%. L. The Treasury Department should offer loans to banks at the fixed rate of 3% on the condition that they must not add more than 5% of true annual interest to the loans to any borrower of these funds. Violation of this requirement must be a felony with stiff monetary fines and jail time penalties for violating this provision, with the fines and jail time being given to the chief executive officer of the erring bank. Both houses of Congress should be allowed to change this interest rate if 80% of those "eligible" to vote on the change, vote in the affirmative. Any changes to this rate must only be in effect for 365 days, when it would automatically revert to 3% again. M. Inflation should not be controlled by varying interest rates, but by varying the supply of money and credit. N. The Internal Revenue Act should be revoked because it is severely regressive, is extremely complicated, and all federal taxes be raised by No. 10 envelope size tax returns which addresses all income and the sale of all property. The tax rates should be progressive with anyone who is legally eligible to receives welfare should be exempt, and the progressive rate starting at 2% and rise to 40% for the highest income levels. All property sold should be taxed at a progressive rate based on the length of time that it is held, with less than six months charged a rate of 33%, and over seven years a rate of 0%. O. Every law passed by Congress must first pass the test of the Constitution. If the proposed bill is not specifically allowed by the Constitution, it becomes null and void. If it is sufficiently important to pass a new law that fails the Constitutional test, amend the Constitution. P. Every bill submitted for approval by both houses of Congress must be single issue bills, and must not contain any amendments that are not clearly and specifically related to the proposed bill. Q. All bills proposed that require increases or decreases in taxes, or other revenue streams must be approved by at least 80% of all those eligible to vote on the bill in both houses of Congress. This is just a start on needed changes and much more could be added, but if enacted, we will again have government by and for the people. Lonnie Morton Hunter Member Post Number: 172 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 05:10 pm:        * We all should start running for office and political seats. The more of us we can get into power, the more we can change things for the better from within. Good idea, although running for office takes a lot of time and money. If we can't do it ourselves, we should at least give financial and volunteer support to other candidates that we trust. We should also support political groups that seek positive change. Edward Member Post Number: 546 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 01:54 am:        Hi Shawn Good Friend.... I am very glad that you have Understood my Parable... And yes, there is a "Black Sheep" in practically every family. And in this case, the Black Sheep is The Most Wisest of them all, Shawn. So, do not live in despair. Follow your Creational Natural Intuitions...and you will gain what is meant to be by Creation... YOU ARE...The WISE White Sheep, and they...alas, are the Lost Black Sheeps which choose not to seek True Wisdom and Knowledge, but would rather walk the Narrow Path of life, alas. THEY have, like everyone on our planet, the Possibly, Capability and Chance to Seek, but alas do not make good use of this Creational given quality. So, if it be their path, So Be It. Only THEY..can Change themselves. And if they wish to Stagnate, they will be confronted with THEIR Own Consequences. Love for our loved ones will always be present, but when it comes down to seeking and unraveling life's parables, well, we all go our own ways: As we are all "Individual Spirit-Forms" that seek Truth at our own Pace. Knowledge and Wisdom to you Shawn. Edward. Edward Member Post Number: 547 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 02:56 am:        Hi Lonnie... Nice to hear from you again! Very very well stated. The same should be adapted here in the country I live in. Just last week, it was mentioned that we should have a "Volks Referendum" in case a ruling government does not function as it should. Thus: The People Can Appose. Via this new Referendum, there has to be at least 300.000 votes to appose the government and Dismiss them(or he/she) and their Misconduct attitude...etc..from office. Sounds good, not? But what is the case? The now ruling government coalition(Right Liberals & Christians) do not wish to let this type of Referendum action take place! Than, of course, they feel they are pulling on the shortest side of the rope, so to speak. And thus...fear greatly(because Many Heads will roll!!). So, now we just have to await the outcome to see if this new referendum proposal will be acknowledged and taken into action for our future democracy system. But, many still fear that the pressure that our now government has to endure from the ruling USA government plays part here. But I think this is nonsense..of course. They have their own capability to make up their own minds, not? But, they seem to play along with the Washington - Simon Says - game, alas to say. But hopefully, our new referendum will succeed and get through and have Great Effectiveness on the Mishap Causalities of our now ruling government, and future governments? Edward. Lonnie Member Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-1999 Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 03:06 pm:        Hi Edward, Nice to hear from you too! Where are you from? Interesting developments in your country. It looks like we have the same problems worldwide. And it seems that the solution, really, is to form small spiritual communities (study groups) around the world, just as Billy and the Plejaren have planned. Salome Markc Member Post Number: 231 Registered: 06-2000 Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 11:57 pm:        Hi Mark and Lonnie ; As is stated in the TJ that we must learn to find the truth and be able to convince others of it , we are at the first stages of that with ourselves . From here , as we continue to seek new insights that become evident in our descriptions of our understanding to others , fresh new ideas in community organization as well as greater community government grow into the customs of people of the future . The hope in it is that even though people are related to our ancestors of 200 years ago , most of us don't think like them . New ideas have influenced us from our current environment because someone went to the trouble to sell them . Recently I came across a book from John Carey and his running mate ; it looked like the fresh ideas , a clean slate , reasonable and strong in ethic . The American people did in fact go for it ; and we were robbed . That's a nice set that you presented Lonnie ; it's good to read your ideas , as always . Salome , Mark Mark Campbell Edward Member Post Number: 548 Registered: 05-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 03:27 am:        Hi Lonnie... I live in the Netherlands. May have slipped your mind where I was from... And of course, it has been awhile that we had a chat with each other. Yes, I hope it may develop for the positive. Would be a good start to give The People back their Speech Rights, and it's Positive Influence Effect. But naturally, some politicians still feel that their positions will be jeopardized, and they will of course loose their own "Personal Power(s)", not? So, this would be what they fear the most! They are just GREEDY for Personal Power, alas. And want to Cash-In..for all the credit, so to speak. Yes, that would be the Solution to form small spiritual communities (study groups) around the world. Hopefully this will become a reality in the coming future, and this all..for the betterment of Flora and Fauna, and last but not least: All Mankind. I am always in for it... Gezondheid.... Edward. Kingman Member Post Number: 41 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 12:06 pm:        Hi Edward, Lonnie, and all, Mark spells it out pretty clearly when he states " and we were robbed ". The true majority here in America voted for another direction in the last two presidential elections. Even though what was done illegally to the vote tally's is known to many, most politicians and authorities are not willing to show that America is corrupt by exposing the reality of vote tampering. Money is the other element that keeps the truth clamped down. I read a recent economic graph that compared the last presidency to the current one. Clinton ended up spending -8% of the money the gov. took in and Bush has spent +45% of what is taken in. Much of that money is flowing out to maintain the appeasing of the buyable opposition and pay for the war profiteering. Being robbed is saying it lightly. Study groups will happen for sure, but sometimes a less formal method will work as well. I have been able to slowly interest many of my friends to actually reach inside themselves and pronounce what they believe in spiritually. Letting them do most of the speaking allows me to find a point of mutual agreement, and from there, if time permits, I check their political views and from these two points I have found how much I really didn't know them. The really amazing part is now that I broke that taboo of not discussing religion or politics, my friends have actually begun having more meaningful conversations. This happens over several informal meetings. Lonnie has presented a compelling set of ideas to help direct us towards recapturing our leadership with steps that aren't insurmountable. These ideas would do well in a motivated enviroment of people no longer in their comfort zone. I have a feeling that a breaking point is just around the corner and people will be more compelled than ever to instigate change. There's much more to be said. Edward, you put things in the simple clarity that I wish for my writing. You have a very noticeable energy to your words that speaks of hope and goodness, yet your still able to discribe the ills of society at the same time. Truly appreciated. a friend in america Shawn Markc Member Post Number: 232 Registered: 06-2000 Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 11:57 pm:        Hi Shawn ; Speaking to the topic of study groups , I mean to imply that spiritual study groups should be started by individuals wishing to get to the heart of spirituality and not by the politics of religions . Therefore , besides we , who are likeminded and interested in the Geisteslehre , others should group together with people of other beliefs and philosphies if possible , to get to the heart of true spiritualty , which has more to do with the way people treat themselves and others , than playing to "divinity" of any kind . Spiritual meetings of the future will be more about uniting people by their differences and finding what truly works than being about segregating various folk by guidelines . Just as you say about your conversations with your friends , the learning will come from listening rather from preaching and giving guidelines . Various models of this are being molded , I believe , for the same reasons that wasabi ice cream happened .... variety . Mark Mark Campbell Kingman Member Post Number: 42 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, October 21, 2005 - 11:47 pm:        Hi Mark, Wasabi say's it all, lol! Yes your right, the differences between people becomes the deciding factor when they come together. It's that exact point that I try and harvest from my friends. Not to point out, but to know where we should best examine deeper and ultimately learn so much more about each other. a friend in america Shawn Markc Member Post Number: 234 Registered: 06-2000 Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 08:00 pm:        Hi Shawn ; Differences are interesting , make for a good basis of mutual respect , because it's easy to take someone for granted who's similar to yourself ; making diversity a strength instead of a threat . I feel that I should redefine my previous comment . The study groups that I spoke of unilaterally should be focus groups gathering to make a better social and political climate . The common thread , as well as the basis for differences of course , is that everyone has some kind of belief . When people are comfortable being in the company of those who believe differently , then a new social standard evolves , kind of like travelling the world in your own neighborhood , and the ticket is your willingness and trust .Maybe in the future people will realize that beliefs were the problem , and realizations and recognitions of iron clad reality is only worthwhile . Perhaps in the days when school children study the melted automobile artifacts from our time . I noticed , that being a North American native , that when I greet a foreigner in a friendly manner , they really appreciate it . They were brave to come here. I am, of course, speaking of those who come here legally . Mark Mark Campbell Kingman Member Post Number: 43 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 02:06 am:        Hi Mark, I sense we will really only create these groups when the situation forces it upon us. When I combine all my thoughts of my future insights into a single coming energy, I feel the reality of a global change that will reshuffle everyones cards. Once it settles down somewhat, I believe we will create our versions of a meaningful group. Each will be an original idea in its form. a friend in america Shawn Newinitiation Member Post Number: 21 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 07:24 am:        dear forum members I believe that various governments all around the world, the religious circles, the people in various conglomerates with vested interests and the secret organisations such as the CIA, the mosad, the M15 and others have thwarted and done everything possible in order to make the topic regarding UFOs and ETs look ridiculous and obsurd to the point where this topic has become a societal taboo or a non issue, where only the deluded or the people who are feeble minded are interested in these topics. I believe they have done a very good job with their disinformation campaign aimed at brainwashing people through the machination of hollywood and the movie industry to promote the topic as nothing more than fantasy and through such repetitious story lines they have ingrained and programmed people to think such topic as just fantasy which belong in the realm of fiction. I believe that the majority of sceptics are lazy and uninformed, who make up their minds with prejudice and prejudgement based on what little information they have. They are also the cause of many problems when it comes to disseminating the truth, for their ego driven ignorance and lack of consideration is the reason behind their stifled consciousness and inner freedom thus preventing the real truth from reaching the people unadulterated. The problems won't go away as long as the forces that these people create out of their ignorance persists. But time will come as billy has stated that the tide will turn the other way and the forces of the truth will be of such magnitude that nothing can stop its wake. Kingman Member Post Number: 46 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 02:21 am:        I think all long term ufo sceptics are employed to debunk the reality of the truth. Anyone who becomes interested in ufo/alien information will eventually read Billy's story and if they are even slightly intelligent will conclude that it is a true contact. To think otherwise a person would be either, A) unable to think, B) paid. The truth will eventually prevail. How could it be otherwise. a friend in america Shawn Scott Moderator Post Number: 706 Registered: 12-1999 Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 09:49 pm:        Hello, Here is a quote which I read recently: "Cheney is seeking to persuade Congress to exempt the Central Intelligence Agency from the proposed torture ban if one is passed by both chambers." So we can assume Dick Cheney condones torture !! Consolato Member Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 12:31 am:        Barbara Streisand just said this recently - “If there was ever a time in history to impeach a President of the United States, it would be now. In my opinion, it is two years too late … Shouldn't war be an absolute last resort? We went to war because we were misled. And we should be angry because of the 2,000 American soldiers and the 200 armed coalition forces that have died. We should be livid because of the 15,000 American soldiers that have been horribly maimed and wounded. We should be disgusted because of the 30,000 innocent Iraqi civilians that have been killed and the 20,000 that are wounded after administration officials claimed that the US was going to liberate the Iraqi people. When does it stop? It stops with the indictment and impeachment of this corrupt, power-hungry, greedy group of incompetent leaders. How many more have to die before this happens?” - Barbara Streisand - Con Tam2105 Member Post Number: 18 Registered: 03-2005 Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 08:35 am:        Right on, Barbara! Tammy Kingman Member Post Number: 48 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 09:39 pm:        Change is happening slowly. The biggest challenge is the reality that many of our political leaders are kept at bay by the blackmailing set up by Bush senior. Both Scooter Libby and Karl Rove are closet homosexuals and do the bidding of the bad guys. Our newest Supreme Court Judge is also under the influence of this fear. Sex parties with under age boys and girls are recorded The fear of being exposed controls their loyalty, keeping the puppet masters free from prosecution. Fortunately, not all politicians take the bait, but they do have to move slowly. Expect after a few more indictments to see a cascade of change wipe the face of Washington D.C. a friend in america Shawn Newinitiation Member Post Number: 32 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 06:13 am:        You guys all know that the sad thing about this whole affair is that because the Americans as well as the people of the world are still kept away from the real truth that they are ignorant and lack knowledge to the point where their good and trusting nature is abused by the profane and somewhat supposedly enlightened people who hold positions of government. With the way the henoch prophecies are beginning to fullfill itself as the riots in Paris and the quashed terrorist plot in Australia has shown, things aren't looking so good, that is why we who know the truth must get the message out as far and wide as our abilities allows us to, we cannot let passivity and complacency rule the day, We must help the cause for the truth and as Micheal horn had explicitly written in his website we must think for ourselves how best to get the message across to the public, there is just no time. How worse can it be if we find ourselves having to think about what we could have done to save humanity from imminent destruction by simply letting the word out when we could have but instead face a crisis of having to contemplate how painlessly we could commit suicide amidst all the mayhem and terror of seeing nuclear bombs fall where we stood a few days ago in our own backyard. Consolato Member Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 04:06 pm:        hi newinvitation, I agree with you. I think a good way to get the message out about government, media and so on corruption would be to organize protests through the internet, just like the people in the france riots did to get their message out. It was mentioned in the meier material that the only way the people of the world were going to get back their power from the corrupt governing body ruling over them was for the people to take it back by force. Con Kingman Member Post Number: 49 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 06:01 pm:        I sense change will happen when the major media corporations stop their controlling nature they place on the reporters and writers. That fear of joblessness with a family to support keeps the censorship in line. Probably the biggest one thing people could do, with some serious organizing of a consumer force, is pressure these companies and their advertisers with a reality check. Right now it seems the blogs are chipping away at the circulation of the big newspapers. There is this threshold that seems to never become breached in the US media when a story is finally trickled out. It's that slowly dragged out aspect that stretches the peoples emotional response so it never really peaks enough for a paradigm change. The profit margin is the only thing that will cause these powerful global media moguls to reconsider. a friend in america Shawn Newinitiation Member Post Number: 33 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 06:16 am:        Dear consolato Hi there, if you have a concrete plan of action with detailed steps we can take I am all for it in support. Part of the problem we face is that not enough people know about the truth and billy's undying efforts to present it to humanity which make garnering any support with enough numbers a difficult ask. It's always the case that people just think they have better things to do with their lives than, as they say, become embroiled in some cultish idiocy which is only fit for mental cases. Now having considered all the road blocks that lies ahead because of people's resistance to the topic along with the fact that it's not our place to convince people makes disseminating the truth all the more harder because you have to leave it up to each individual's freedom to decide for themselves. We can go on and on about what we can do and what the problems are with so and so but truly nothing will ever get done if we all fall prey to paralysis by analysis syndrome. My suggestion is and what I have done thus far is to photocopy from Micheal's website and start posting it or handing them out, it's the least we can do and if others in this forum has access to or have the power to reach wider audience, who can get the message out far better than just individually, then thats all the more better, the bottomline is to get it out there without breaking the Creational natural laws and commandments. Consolato Member Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 07:01 pm:        Dear Newinitiation, I don't have a concrete plan of action to take to get the message out. I can only tell you what i think is the best way to go about it. Firstly I don't think billy meier's material is going to get much or any mainstream media attention with the way things are now with the corruption in the worldwide mainstream media outlets. I think the corruption in the worldwide government and media outlets must be dealt with "first" and only then do I feel that billy meier's material will be allowed to get the worldwide mainstream media attention it so rightfully deserves. I do not know how long it will take before that time comes but as more and more people throughout the world are waking up to this widespread government and media corruption problem, i hope its not too far away. I feel that its only a matter of time till theres enough people who see through this problem and then people will start organizing protests through various internet sites to address this problem, just like the france riot people did to get their message out. The people in the france riots didn't get what they wanted to acheive out of the riots,but I believe if there were more people involved in those riots that they might have. I'm not suggesting to going out and torching innocent peoples cars like the people in the france riots did either. I'm also not suggesting to organizing any protests through this forum either as it wouldn't suit this forum. I think the best way would be to start off is with people organizing peacefull protests and then if that doesn't work, then to start torching government and media buildings. that should get the message across loud and clear. As I said before, it is mentioned in the meier material that the only way that people were going to get back their power from the corrupt governing bodies ruling over them was for the people to take it back by force. I don't believe that mostly all the people around the world are as ignorantly stupid as how the worldwide media outlets depicts them all as being. If some of the henoch prophecies regarding world war 3 start fulfilling themselves soon, I feel that these type of protests or riots could happen within the next few years all on its own without us (figu's)doing anything. I believe that theres already a "good" number of people throughout the world who do see through this widespread government and media corruption problem and I do feel that that number will only progressively increase greatly soon too, especially with whats happening at the moment in iraq, and I think its starting to show now too with the way how people in south america reacted over the free trade talks where south america (argentina) agreed to disagree with the U.S. after the people rioted in the streets. Con Newinitiation Member Post Number: 34 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 05:38 am:        Dear consolato Consolato, how will you choose to be today? The tenent of the spiritual teachings are LOVE, PEACE, HARMONY, FREEDOM, KNOWLEDGE, SPIRIT, EXISTENCE, CONSCIOUSNESS, CREATION AND LOGIC. Cosolato in a few years time or maybe less you will come to the conclusion that what you've written above concerning torching government and media buildings you will come to recognise as illogical. The multidimensional and interconnectedness of everything in our existence and it's state including humanly created events and conditions out of their degenerate nature will attest to your spirit if you think deeper about the interwoven fabric of the law of cause and effect in our life. Nothing happens in isolation and the current state of the media and the people who run them is one effect out of the complacency of the citizenry who knowingly or out of ignorance still let them dupe them. But truly the media and the people who own and run them are one problem but nothing positive will come out of our misinterpretation and lack of consideration for Billy's messages and spiritual teachings, Violence will beget violence. If you read the amateur translation by dyson "and there shall be peace on earth" you will see for yourself what is the right way to deal with this issue and come to know what truly is FORCE So having said all this, we arrive back to the very beginning where the circle closes once again- that you, myself and all the knowers of the truth must make some form of contribution however small for WHY? For so much benefit we received practically on a silver platter at the expense of billy's suffering and tremendous hardship. You tell me how should it be otherwise if you truly know what fairness and gratitude is peace be with you Consolato Member Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 04:03 pm:        Dear Newinitiation, what i said above was my opinion based on my limited knowledge and understanding of how i see things. I figured that this government and media corruption problem is a materialistic problem and as such should be dealt with in a materialistic way because I didn't believe that there were enough people in the world who know of the billy meier material to address this problem in a spiritual way as you mentioned there. I also noticed that the plejarens don't fix every problem they come across in a spiritual way too and they too resort to dealing with certain problems in a materialistic forceful way too like when they removed the giza intelligences by force as well as numerous other things mentioned in the meier material. Con Phil638 Member Post Number: 148 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 03:01 am:        hi newinvitation, consolato put forward an opinion on how he believes that humanity can get rid of this world government and media corruption problem and you put forward your opinion on how humanity can address this problem too saying that - "The tenent of the spiritual teachings are LOVE, PEACE, HARMONY, FREEDOM, KNOWLEDGE, SPIRIT, EXISTENCE, CONSCIOUSNESS, CREATION AND LOGIC." What I don't understand is that the spiritual teachings are for ones own spiritual evolution and this government, media corruption problem is outside of oneself and has little to do with spiritual evolution matters. Sorry Newinitiation, but I don't believe for a moment that a few thousand people focusing their spiritual powers correctly to try to get all the corrupt meglomanical people working in the world governments, militry, media, religions and corporate organizations to all get together one day and suceeding in spiritually influencing them on them all happily agreeing together on them handing their beloved cherished powers back to the common people. I can't see that happening. I see the point that consolato made saying that not many more people are going to find out about the billy meier spiritual teachings within the next few years if the media corruption problem stays the way it is now with no mainstream media willing to publicise the billy meier ufo contact material. So how are a substantial amount of people within the next few years going to hear or learn about the billy meier spiritual material to dramaticly increase humanity spiritual awareness to address this government, media corruption problem using spiritual powers as you say then if they won't hear about it? The biggest problem I see is that world war 3 is just around the corner and these evil meglomaniacal corrupt government people are leading everyone in the world straight to it and I don't believe spiritual powers is going to address this problem. This is why the plejarens said that all these corrupt people in position of power over the common people must be removed by the common people by force. phil Ollyb New member Post Number: 3 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 01:13 pm:        Hi all! I have a couple of questions that i was curious to ask - but have only just got round to doing so on this forum hopefully some of you Eduard Buffs that can also speak german might have read some info regarding these issues; 1.) Billy mentions the Philadelphia experiment only through principle. Has he ever commented more on this subject other then this. 2.)With this has he mentioned any aspect of the montauk project accounts. Specifically on Preston, Al, or Phil Schnieder. 3.) regarding Dr Fred Bell (Pyradyne.com). I'm assuming Billy has mentioned this guy before, and i'm also assuming that he has denied Freds claims, Is this correct and Fred bell is a placed disinformer or a victim of 3rd party programming? 4.) has Billy ever mentioned about the Wingmaker Materials? I have read most of the contact notes that are available on the web - all i think. Plus the book doesnt contain them all. And i suspect any mention of these things would probably still be in the Original German notes. Anyone have any links to notes regarding these issues, or can break down any notes where he talks about them in German. kind regards, Olly Mgilbo1 Member Post Number: 28 Registered: 09-2002 Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 10:04 am:        Phil, Newinitiation, Consolato, I have to agree with Consolato in many respects. People are protesting every day and most of the time its to deaf ears of the media and the people. I think our gov't (US that is) has left its citizens no choice but to revolt with force. Its obvious our military, police and other secret services are protecting their interests and the ones who control their budgets. Your chances of getting control back with peaceful protests are slim to none today. They won't think twice about killing their own citizens or someone who wants to bring truth to the table. I wish this weren't true but its becoming quite obvious here and around the world in other places. The world is a dangerous place, and as Billy has found out, everyone is expendable. Mark Gilbo Newinitiation Member Post Number: 36 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 07:02 am:        Phil638 "There is no eye equal to wisdom, NO DARKNESS EQUAL TO IGNORANCE, no power equal to the power of the spirit and NO TERROR EQUAL TO THE POVERTY OF CONSCIOUSNESS." (TJ26:27) "The time will come, when humankind must turn around and become reaquainted with the eternal values of life." (TJ36:26) "The highest directive in the law of Creation is this: Achieve the wisdom of KNOWLEDGE, so that you may wisely follow the laws of Creation." (TJ23:35) "But if humans do not THINK and SEEK, they will not be able to attain wisdom and will remain FOOLS." (TJ26:15) "For truly, I say to you: Do not throw your spiritual treasure into the dirt and do not waste it on the unworthy, because they will not thank you and will tear you apart, FOR THEIR UNDERSTANDING IS SMALL AND THEIR SPIRIT WEAK." (TJ7:10) Peace be with you Newinitiation Member Post Number: 37 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 05:45 am:        dear Phil639 and others I think it'll help others somewhat if I clarified a few things in response to your post for which in no way is an attempt by me to degrade you in anyway or to put myself upon a pedestle of all knowingness as we are all in the same position of learning. NOW the term SPIRITUAL cannot be misunderstood to mean in this case some hidden powers, occult forces, withcraft, shamanism, supernatural phenomenon, religious dogmas or for that matter any fantastic feats we see characters in the movies such as THE X-MAN displaying. YOU cannot separate the term spiritual with morality and ethics, they go hand in hand and as you have withnessed in many occasions this conversation shouldn't be about the usual childish, ego driven "I am right and you are wrong" argument but if we come away with better understanding or having learnt something new for which this forum was created by FIGU along with many other reasons then it serves the right purpose. Having said this I can't quite understand where you've got the notion that I was implying in your understanding of the word spiritual, using spiritual forces to solve all problems unless out of your misunderstanding of my meaning you would have wrote what you did. If I had disagreed with consolato's opinions about torching government and media buildings and you yourself defending his opinion then truly you are more degenerate than those terrorists who cannot see the wrong in their behaviour, for you after your exposure to the truth and messages brought to us by billy and the plejarens still cannot purge youself and work towards being more virtuous, moralistic and ethical first in your daily attitude, thoughts, feelings and behaviour then you are like the unworthy Jmmanuel was talking about. It seizes to amaze me how the spiritual teachings for even those supposed knowers of billy's mission fail so miserably to understand them When I say that the tenent of the spiritual teachings are what I wrote above then that is the highest truth beyond anyones opinions as it is brought to us by the plejarens. Now why do you think they did this, was it for our enjoyment and entertainment? You foolish ones open your eyes to the truth! for your ignorance rots in so much stench and stupidity. Know that the world situation has become dire because people have denied the truth and seize to become spiritual, They continue to torture, maim, murder, exploit, hate, greedly covert, selfishly hoard, be unlovingly cold, neglect, egomaniacally dominate and control ETC Remember this ask yourselves is it the cart before the horse or is it the other way around? because not many people know about the truth isn't it obvious that you need to present the truth to the people so that they can make up their minds whether to accept it or not? Isn't it a logical assumption if you want enough support to protest or to use force as consolato is of the opinion, enough people need to know about the truth to support it in the first place? Phil639 what is the basis of materialistic problems we see today? it's thoughts, feelings, attitude and actions. What is the basis of thought? It's existence, consciousness, logic, knowledge and spirit. Can't you see now that I have spelt it out for you that we need to work on our spirit first before we can influence the material plane? Peace be with you all Markc Member Post Number: 243 Registered: 06-2000 Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:07 am:        in response to Mark Gilbo's post ; If the trend of turning deaf ears to public outrage continues , then taking the nation by force is entirely possible , however unlikely that it may seem . North Americans started out by overthrowing our tyrants. Even the military would have a hard time with the prospect of killing their own neighbors in a civil revolution . With the recent disasters , the people have been roused far past the point of anger , where everyone is on more on an even field in terms of recognizing that the hawks have horrible intentions , and become more transparent as they go on . The Bush admin flies it in your face ,that they they will decide what will happen regardless of the true dominant opinion . The rock and the hard place becomes apparent when you start to see how reality has been twisted so that the average American citizen no longer knows right from wrong anymore .Even that it is wrong to be in Iraq , leaving the area seems to lead to whatever outcome that the admin fortells : complete advantage and aggressive growth of terrorism . Of course , with the situation so far into the red , what else could be expected ? Derailing the runaway train ( stopping the bleeding) would be messy and painful , but that sounds just like America to me .Our history was always awkward and based entirely on direct oppositional conflict . Billy has obviously searched into the truth of the situation using perception that reaches far into the future of cause and effect. Using logic , anyone can come to their own conclusion about this if they factor in true leadership , which we do not have , and may not even be able to remember anymore . The only real option is to remove the current leadership by impeachment , and show the world that we have a chance of reaching reasonabilty , ourselves , first . It is a proven fact that an enemy doesn't really exist , only each attitude is an an enemy , being both enemy to others and ultimately , ourselves. We are the people .It gives power to the idea to say it ,and to express it .In truth , this is our country , our lives , and the white house belongs to us as well .When the people are divided by opinion , such as the way of the party system , they have successfully sliced us down the middle and taken away our right to choose .These political parties still seem to blindly steer in their given directions . Respect to all , Mark Mark Campbell Phil638 Member Post Number: 149 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 08:18 pm:        Hi Newinitiation, what i didn't understand about what you said was that you said that the best way to deal with this worldwide government and media corruption problem was for people to deal with it using the spiritual teachings according to the laws and commandments of creation. My point was what does the spiritual teachings have to do with corrupt worldwide political matters? How are a few thousand people living their lives (correctly?) according to the spiritual teachings of creation going to get rid of all these corrupt worldwide political people out from their positions of power that they hold over the common people in the time span thats left before world war 3 happens? Thats what (consolato's) whole point was about when he suggested that one way to deal with the problem was to have rioters start torching government and media buildings. The problem is that these corrupt political people are the people who are in control of the media. I'm also not suggesting that consolato's way is the best way to go about with dealing with this worldwide corruption problem either, but I'd agree with him that the torching of government and media buildings would certainly get the point accross to corrupt governments and let them know that society/people aren't as stupid and gullible as what these corrupt governments would like to think. Also lets not forget what the plajarens have said about this matter and that was that the only way to get rid of all these corrupt political people holding positions of power within governments was only by the common people uniting and removing them by force. In other words, spirituality (as you suggested) isn't going to get rid of the worldwide political corruption problem, only common people uniting and using their pyshical force will remove this governmental corruption problem. Hope you see what I mean here. The other thing I would like to say is that i know that you could never entirely remove all the corruption going on within the world governments either, you can only lessen it to a degree so that some long overdue dirty house cleaning gets done so that some important changes get made which give common people some of their power back and also some changes get made which benefits the common people more instead of always benefiting only the rich people and their rich organizations that they belong too. phil Mgilbo1 Member Post Number: 30 Registered: 09-2002 Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 07:23 pm:        I do respect how you feel Marc and I hope your right. I hope we can change the world with peaceful protests, and by all means that should be our first option. But what if we don't? Do you really think impeachment can happen in America today? From the president on down to your local politician, they are crooked and growing in numbers. CNN did a poll about 6 months ago. They asked the public if they thought 911 was an inside job. Over 90% came back yes. 90%. And to this day very little has come of it. People continue on with their lives 9 to 5 and watch football on Sunday. This is the mentality that you are dealing with ALL over the world, not just the US. Thousands of people have died in the last century in the name of PEACEFUL PROTESTS. What they should have realized before they protested is that NO protest is peaceful(ask black America that). If you can create change with peace, great! But you better be ready for war at the same time because the folks in power have everything in their favor to crush you. And I think you are being a little naive when you say our military would have a hard time killing its citizens. If you look at history, its never been a problem then and I'm sure it won't be a problem now. Yeah there may be a few that won't but they'll be shuffled off to Alaska while the real idiots do their business and follow blindly. Now I may sound cynical but I have my reasons to be. Do I hope for peace every day? Yes! Do I expect it any time soon? No! Not until the people wake up and no peace protest has a prayer of doing that. Mark Mark Gilbo Newinitiation Member Post Number: 40 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 09:41 pm:        Dear phil638 Look phil we could be here all day trying to convince each other of the legitimacy and how right we think we are and we will just go on and on round in circles defending our own views without coming to some sort of agreement whether to agree to disagree. What in the end matters for us I think and in the spirit of what FIGU is about is for us to continue sharing, provoking, stimulating, advising, diagreeing, agreeing, supporting rejecting, objecting etc of each others views and our limited knowledge so that we help each other grow and learn from it. All it takes is for us to recognise how limited and ignorant we really are and that we have so much to learn, so from that we must never become arrogant and lose our sense of proportion about our own worth. Phil, really I cannot add any more than what I have and simply no matter what I say it's really up to each one of us to develop ourselves out of the knowledge presented by billy and from everyday life. For me anyway if we are endevouring to change any aspect of society and it's ills we must do so collectively, each and every individual working on themselves, to change to being more peaceful, loving, harmonious, free, respecting, helping etc otherwise the egomaniacs we replace in positions of power will quickly be replaced with the same and as long as the system exists for them to do so any effort will be in vain or only temporary. peace be with you Phil638 Member Post Number: 151 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 10:08 pm:        Hi Newinitiation, I didn't see your prior post above when I posted my post above before. Newinitiation, I'm going to say this in as simpler terms as I can say this so you might understand this time as well as also trying to end this discussion here too. With all due respect to you I think your really missing the point of consolato's post and what I'm saying too in relation to the government, media corruption problem discussion here. I don't want to have to do some backtracking but I have to. You just said this to me in your last post - "Having said this I can't quite understand where you've got the notion that I was implying in your understanding of the word spiritual, using spiritual forces to solve all problems unless out of your misunderstanding of my meaning you would have wrote what you did." now please reread your post that you posted to consolato again which was your opinion of consolato's torching method that he suggested was one way to deal with the government corruption problem - "Dear consolato Consolato, how will you choose to be today? The tenent of the spiritual teachings are LOVE, PEACE, HARMONY, FREEDOM, KNOWLEDGE, SPIRIT, EXISTENCE, CONSCIOUSNESS, CREATION AND LOGIC. Cosolato in a few years time or maybe less you will come to the conclusion that what you've written above concerning torching government and media buildings you will come to recognise as illogical. The multidimensional and interconnectedness of everything in our existence and it's state including humanly created events and conditions out of their degenerate nature will attest to your spirit if you think deeper about the interwoven fabric of the law of cause and effect in our life. Nothing happens in isolation and the current state of the media and the people who run them is one effect out of the complacency of the citizenry who knowingly or out of ignorance still let them dupe them. But truly the media and the people who own and run them are one problem but nothing positive will come out of our misinterpretation and lack of consideration for Billy's messages and spiritual teachings, Violence will beget violence. If you read the amateur translation by dyson "and there shall be peace on earth" you will see for yourself what is the right way to deal with this issue and come to know what truly is FORCE" 1. Your post above is all about the spiritual teaching laws and creation which can only suggests that this is your opinion on how to correctly deal with this government corruption problem. That is exactly what it appears that you can only be suggesting there. Now reread that last paragraph you mentioned there again - "If you read the amateur translation by dyson "and there shall be peace on earth" you will see for yourself what is the right way to deal with this issue and come to know what truly is FORCE" 2. If the only way for society to get rid of this worldwide government corruption problem is only if the common people unite so they can remove these corrupt people by force, and if the common people in question who can only do this are just simple common people throughout the world, then I can positively assure you of one thing about these common people and that is that they absolutely wouldn't want to know a single thing about creation or about billy meiers spiritual teachings either. Repeat - %99.9 of the common people that can deal with this problem all don't want to know a thing about the spiritual teachings or about creation! So what has the spiritual teachings got to do with addressing this worldwide political corruption problem? That is unless you are suggesting that the only people in the world that can succeed in addressing this worldwide political corruption problem is a few thousand people (figu) scattered throughout the world who are learning about billy meiers spiritual teachings? If we are not the only people who can only deal with this worldwide corruption problem, but instead its only something that simple common people can deal with, then why are you pointing out the spiritual teachings aas the solution and manner on how to address the problem to consolato and me here in this discussion? Consolato's post was about one way how common people can address the worldwide corruption problem and not about how we as individuals can address the corruption problem because its the common people of the world who can only deal with the worldwide corruption problem and therefore its pointless bringing up the spiritual teachings into the discussion and suggesting that is the correct method and way on how to address the problem because the common people of the world are the only ones who can address the problem and none of them have ever heard a thing about billy meiers spiritual teachings or would even want to have a bar of them either. Thats why spirituality hasn't got a thing to do with what consolato's post and suggestion was all about. Also I think your kidding yourself if you think that peaceful protests will address this meglomanical corruption problem too. I believe that if using force and voilence is the only thing that will deal with removing most of this worldwide political corruption problem, then so be it, because the world cannot continue forever to operate like this or for much longer too. You might have a different opinion to that, but that is mine. This is why the plejarens said that the only way to solve this worldwide political corruption problem was for the common people to unite and remove them by force. And I don't believe the force the plejarens are reffering to there has anything to do with spirituality either. I don't think me sharing the same opinion as consolato in how to deal with the problem was an illogical one as you stated it was here in this discussion either. I t was your opinion you gave in how to deal with the problem (spiritually) is what I believe was the illogical opinion on how to deal with the problem. This was all due to a simple mistake you made back when you had entered this discussion. You simply missed the point from the very start of what consolato and I were talking about and you still missed the point even after consolato and I were trying to explain it to you too. I am in no way trying to put you down here over a simple mistake that you or anyone else can easily make. I'm saying all this because I would prefer to get on well with you here on this forum Newinitiation (and all else too) and to see you as always being a friend of mine here too, but theres something I would like to say which is in regards to something you said in your last post about me which I really didn't like or think was very fair on me either. Its this - "If I had disagreed with consolato's opinions about torching government and media buildings and you yourself defending his opinion then truly you are more "DEGENERATE" than those terrorists who cannot see the wrong in their behaviour" You degraded my integrity over something you didn't know what you were talking about and as such were in the wrong about. I don't ever degrade anyone's integrety whether I know I'm right about something or wether I know their wrong about something. Two reasons are - 1. I don't like doing that to people. 2. I could be wrong. The main reason I thought it was a bit unfair on me was how it was all said. In the your post to consolato which I quoted above you were suggesting that billy's spirtual teachings laws of creation was the answer on how to deal with this corruption problem that consolato and I were talking about and you were also saying things in regards to how we should all be thinking and living our lives according to the spiritual laws of creation too and then straight after in the next post here you are degrading my integrety and whats more is that you were the person who was in the wrong because they didn't know what they were talking about and who gave the illogical opinion on how to deal with the corruption problem and not me, but it didn't matter whether you were right in what you were saying here in this discussion or wether you were wrong in it anyway. It not right to preach to someone how they are not thinking/living in accordance to spiritual law matters and then to degrade their integrity next post over the opinion they gave on something. I really didn't want to have to say all this but only did because I didn't really like being denegrated for someone else's misunderstanding and I also said all this for the benefit of helping you live according to the spiritual teaching laws of creation that your trying to learn here at this website/forum as well as trying to preach here too. A simple apology is all that is required to restablish our friendship and to end this dispute which we both didn't really need. Phil Markc Member Post Number: 245 Registered: 06-2000 Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 07:15 pm:        Hi Mark ; You've said it . And so , I'll refer everyone read your post above , which makes more sense than mine . Mark Mark Campbell Newinitiation Member Post Number: 42 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 09:52 pm:        dear phil638 Phil I don't want to make it a kiss and make up session that we may be repremanded for by the moderators because it's only fair that we keep to the original intended purpose of this forum. I think you have been offended by what I have said and truly it wasn't purposefully intended but then again I do owe you an apology and if you were offended I do apologise. I hope we can continue to share and exchange our ideas and views without the fear of ridicule or condemnation because it somehow doesn't conform with our own limited views, having said this I didn't realise that you and I were having some sort of verbal altercation. I have to agree with your point and that of consolato that the issues of corruption is a major issue facing humanity because out of it comes all the ills for which the common people must suffer and those in power who exploit them benefit tremendously. I don't know if you've read my second post, tell me what you think about the term spiritual and what it means. This is just my limited view anyway, the problems on the material side has also a spiritual basis, meaning that what we express as human beings are what knowledge and information gathered by the spirit which expresses itself subconsciously through the vehicle of our material conscious and subconscious minds. Now it doesn't require people to be aquainted with billy's material to know what love, logic, kindness, caring, goodness, helpfulness, knowledge, peace, harmony, freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, sympathy, empathy, support and all the fundamental principles that are pertinent to a better society although it helps if many people become aware of billy's mission and teachings. I just don't think after all the trial and tribulations as humanity we have gone through in our tumultuous history that we can somehow overthrow people in power through burning, torching and using violence because such has been done on numerous occasions in the past wherever society you've come from, sure we have made some progress but look at the situation today, history always repeats itself because our degenerate nature still exists for the conditions to be the way it is. Frankly it's not my place to convince, mould, manipulate, coerce, teach or change anyones thoughts and opinions but I have the right just as anybody to judge but not falsely if I sense that what some members of this forum express which I think is the judgement that it errs according to creational natural laws and commandments, sure everbody is entitled to their opinions however wrong or right it is but truly as you and consolato is of the opinion, would you be willing to walt the talk and to solve the problems of corruption that you be the one to torch and burn media and government buildings? will you? and since you are also a common person like myself will you be among the ones who will do something about the problems of corruption? If not why not and why won't you carry out the opinions you have rightfully expressed? If you answer this by saying "I was only expressing my point of view and my opinions" then you aren't a part of the solution and if you are all talk and no action then what truly can you call yourself but an ineffective hypocrite. Can I ask without any concealed patronising intended, Have you taken in the creational natural laws and commandments? Have you read most of the bulletins, spiritual messages, articles and some of the books such as "and still they fly", or talmud of jmmanuel? Are you working towards being more spiritual by heading to it's lessons and teachings in your everyday life? If as you say the common people should overthrow those in power who exploit their positions as have read billy say by using force, then is that force justified if it results in many innocent lives being taken away? what if it was you among them or one of your close family members? how would you feel? and what would this achieve frankly? would you realise your goals? Peace be with you Kingman Member Post Number: 57 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 02:49 am:        I know that if a large part of the service industry was to strike simultaneously with say the transportation industry and say the education/growers/bank workers/etc. unions and demand that the current US administration step down, you would see the start of change. It has happened before. I think Poland had a good example of this people power. Blood spilt, property destruction, and other undesirable effects don't have to be the reality. And I would think that with the power of the internet a relatively small group could get the snowball rolling. Ideas are what were looking for. If you've been misunderstood, get over it. This subject happens to be a rather critical element to helping our world get back on track. Personal feelings can wait. I would have to honestly believe that no one has meant any ill intent. Shake it off and use your wits less selfishly. Were all in this together and we either sink or swim, let's swim friends. a friend in america Shawn Newinitiation Member Post Number: 44 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 12:52 am:        Dear forum members Lyndon H. LaRouche. jr is one man dedicated to ousting the current bush administration from office. He has so much credible information to share to the world on his Executive Intelligence Review feature. Visit larouche.com Markc Member Post Number: 250 Registered: 06-2000 Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 08:03 pm:        Thanks New , for the constructive suggestion : www.larouche.com .oust the Bush regime. Mark Campbell Newinitiation Member Post Number: 45 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 08:59 pm:        Dear marc hi marc, I don't know where you live on this earth but the very fact of the matter is that the problems created by the bush admin crosses all boundaries and borders. Mr larouche detailed analysis regarding the historical happenings that has led to the current dire world situation is not only informative but helps to dispel certain misconceptions on how we understand the situation to be. His prophetic information regarding why there will eventually be a collapse in the world economy and that of USA cannot be ignored. This person is one individual who we need to support besides billy in order to hope for a better future for this world. Phil638 Member Post Number: 152 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 06:51 pm:        personally I don't believe that any form of peaceful protests will address this meglomanical worldwide political corruption problem. This is why I said that I believe if using force and voilence is the only thing that will deal with removing most of this worldwide political corruption problem, then so be it, because the world cannot continue to operate like this for much longer without some very dire consequences happening to us all. phil Lonnie Member Post Number: 92 Registered: 12-1999 Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 03:19 pm:        Hi Phil, It's perfectly understandable that it can be frustrating trying to bring about some good in the world. Many people have tried and failed. But Billy has said that even peaceful demonstrations are a form of war. Appreciating the laws of cause and effect, we simply cannot fight war and violence with more war and violence. From my perspective, it's going to take a tremendous about of patience, resolve and long suffering in order to manifest the necessary self control to be a neutralizing force. Lonnie Morton Kingman Member Post Number: 59 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 09:23 pm:        Hi Phil, I will always say that violence or force would be the last choice. This means also that I wouldn't allow the problem to fester beyond a overly consuming parameter. You seem to be advocating very clearly that as of now we are only left with these choices you prescribe. Hypothetically if everyone, or even just the essential people that keep the world running smoothly, suddenly stopped performing their job you would begin the shift of the greater social consciousness towards major change. It's not so far fetched. I am willing to expand the idea more if you are serious about bringing about a possible solution. a friend in america Shawn Phil638 Member Post Number: 153 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 03:09 am:        hi lonnie and kingman, I don't doubt what you both say about the laws of cause and effect and about how violence or force should always be used only as a last resort. But what if its your life that is in danger that you are talking about? Should that change anything around? What I'm saying is that when these corrupt meglomaniacal political power people and their corrupt organisations that are about to put the life of just about everyone on the planet in danger (ww3) and if the only possible action that can be done to remove these corrupt people out of power is to use violence or force, then thats what I believe should be done because the plejarens have stated that we have every right to defend ourselves. If someone is about to murder you to rob you for your money, are you going to just stand there and let them murder you, or are you going to defend yourself with whatever means you can? Of course you are going to defend yourself. So where does this put the laws of cause and effect you spoke of as well as the statement that you cannot fight war and violence with more war and violence. It puts them out the window is where it puts them. If you were about to be murdered to be robbed for your money and you acted on those principles, then you would die. If I found out that there was going to be a violent riot to protest against my countries political and media corruption problem and the rioters were going to torch certain government and media buildings to get their message accross, I would definately choose to be there because I know that sort of action would definately be for my future benefit, no matter how small. Its a start. I wouldn't just sit back and choose to do nothing hoping that someone else might succeed in taking care of the problem. Personally I don't believe that would happen because there is no single person or few people who could step forward and do something by bringing media attention to the world to address this corruption problem without them being sacked, silenced or murdered in the process. Also the media of the world is controlled by the governments so how are the masses of the common people ever going to find out about how bad this government and media corruption problem is, as well as also hearing about all the implications and consequences that it means to them and their future too? Its up to you how you choose to act when/if your life is in danger. I for one will never choose to just sit there and hope for the best or hope for something to happen which may never happen when i know my life is in danger. I hope you see where I'm coming from now. phil Kingman Member Post Number: 62 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:45 am:        Hi Phil, What you state here is what I'm also saying, " But what if its your life that is in danger that you are talking about? Should that change anything around?" Your further comments.... "What I'm saying is that when these corrupt meglomaniacal political power people and their corrupt organisations that are about to put the life of just about everyone on the planet in danger (ww3) and if the only possible action that can be done to remove these corrupt people out of power is to use violence or force, then thats what I believe should be done because the plejarens have stated that we have every right to defend ourselves." ....take the "violence and force" action beyond an immediately needed action, mainly because I don't see WW3 happening. And as a obvious answer to this question here... "If someone is about to murder you to rob you for your money, are you going to just stand there and let them murder you, or are you going to defend yourself with whatever means you can? Of course you are going to defend yourself. " ...will only be a " yes I would defend myself".... Your idea here, "If I found out that there was going to be a violent riot to protest against my countries political and media corruption problem and the rioters were going to torch certain government and media buildings to get their message accross, I would definately choose to be there because I know that sort of action would definately be for my future benefit, no matter how small. Its a start." Isn't a matter of you about to be murdered or robbed, so your argument isn't being backed up by these scenarios. And the rest of your statement... "I wouldn't just sit back and choose to do nothing hoping that someone else might succeed in taking care of the problem. Personally I don't believe that would happen because there is no single person or few people who could step forward and do something by bringing media attention to the world to address this corruption problem without them being sacked, silenced or murdered in the process. Also the media of the world is controlled by the governments so how are the masses of the common people ever going to find out about how bad this government and media corruption problem is, as well as also hearing about all the implications and consequences that it means to them and their future too? Its up to you how you choose to act when/if your life is in danger. I for one will never choose to just sit there and hope for the best or hope for something to happen which may never happen when i know my life is in danger. I hope you see where I'm coming from now." ...I will say that one person can change things, Ghandi being an example. And as we see our world changing and the masses learning that the internet is the best source for information, we can get the truth. A recent product that will soon be available is a $100 (US) personal computer that can be run by a power connection or by a hand crank built into it that will run it for free and is WIFI ready. These will be distributed through out the third world helping the children become more educated. Education is the key if you ask me. Once we bridge the information gap, or start to at least, the world will again change and this time on a more even playing field. I see your point to the extent when your life and those you care about are about to be killed, anyone would be foolish to not defend themselves. But I feel your jumping the gun so to speak. Your life isn't immediately in danger of being lost, and your ready to destroy things according to your statements. This is my response to your position. a friend in america Shawn Newinitiation Member Post Number: 49 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 09:34 pm:        dear phil well then do something about it! get the message out as much as you can, photocopy articles from michael horns website and hand them out, the more people know the greater the appreciable difference we can make. Judging by the very fact that you have written something in this forum, nobody right now is threatening your life or trying to do harm, so get on with it instead of all talk and no action. if you said change can originate from small things then be the originator and not just the talker. why all this nonsense about trying to defend your ego, if thats what you believe, then so be it but get your bum off the chair and do something about it if it's important to you and to your survival! Consolato Member Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:09 pm:        I remember reading in the henoch prophecies something saying about in the near future civil war will take place throughout all of america and after that america will then be subdivided into 3 or 4 seperate individual states/countries. Maybe this is how america will end up dealing with its government corruption problem? If it is, I surely hope this won't also be what will also happen to most of the other countries in the world to correct their corruption problem too. Con Tjames Member Post Number: 115 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 12:24 am:        Hello Phil, I do agree with you, but to a point. Not only, but partly because in the Henok prophecies the rioters in France I believe were refered to as "irresponsible" (something to that effect) but primarily because participating in a riot just because everybody downtown was there torching and vandalizing to (in their minds) prove a point. I really don't think that this is an effective method for anything good. Like I said I agree with you that you must defend yourself and such, but, this is not defense. A stupid, thoughtless "meant to be pro-active" measure, however in reality only a destructive and violent method proving to be pointless and one that rarely works. Violence usually only begets more violence as it aslo causes more complications. I'm thinking more along the lines of a "pro-active" alliance through flyers, mail, phone, internet, bumper stickers and word of mouth for a thoughtful rebellion where strength in numbers PROVES more powerful than bullets and wrecked homes and boulevards. Self-defence must always be, but, in the event it can be averted that choice must always be the one. Have I mis-interpreted? Good topic though Saalome Tim Consolato Member Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 04:10 am:        This corroborates the plejarens analysis of G.W.Bush being a sick meglomaniac - Prominent DC Shrink Diagnoses G.W.Bush to be a Paranoid, Sadistic Meglomaniac. A new book by a prominent Washington psychoanalyst says President George W. Bush is a "paranoid meglomaniac" as well as a sadist and "untreated alcoholic" Dr. Justin Frank, writing in Bush on the Couch: Inside the Mind of the President, also says the President has a ""lifelong streak of sadism, ranging from childhood pranks (using firecrackers to explode frogs) to insulting journalists, gloating over state executions ... [and] pumping his fist gleefully before the bombing of Baghdad." http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=32&num=4687 G.W.BUSH = 666 The Beast. from very good webpage below - George Walker Bush is the ANTI-CHRIST 666 = The Beast. The violence and destruction that began when Bush first entered office, is now certain to culminate in the apocalypse, as predicted in the Bible over 2,000 years ago. George Bush's name is equal to 666 if we use the Hebrew letter equivalents. It is also equal to 666 if we use the two most commonly used systems in numerology as well as in ASCII code......................................(lots of equations not listed here - refer to webpage below)......................................there you have it - 666 - the number of the Beast, absolutely any way you care to add it up. The number of his name in Hebrew = 666. The number of his name using the Pythagorean system = 6. The Chaldean system = 6. ASCII code = 6. The number of his birthday = 6. His lucky number = 6. The number of the date when he was first elected Governor = 6. When he is first inaugurated Governor = 6. The number when he was inaugurated president of the United States = 6. The number of the man/beast named George Walker Bush = 666. http://www.bushisantichrist.com/ G.W.BUSH = 666 The Beast. Con Tjames Member Post Number: 116 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 10:37 pm:        Correction, Self defense must always be, but in the event a lesser violent path can be taken, it must be the choice. Another point: self defense usually does inflict some measure of damage but not always. Sometimes it can be used in a stealthy, smooth and only by staying one step ahead of the attack can any defense be usually effective. Sometimes also, the defense can be intentionally less damaging, however, completely imobilizing, hence its effectiveness. Like using your head and other peoples own momentum against them as this could apply to any situation. I learned this from studying Japanese martial arts, Ninjitsu. My thoughts Tim Phil638 Member Post Number: 170 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 02:14 am:        Hi Newinvitation, this is also why I think your hunger strike protest will never get any air time on any mainstream media outlet - Keepers at the Gate He Who Controls Television Controls the Masses By Manuel Valenzuela 12/07/05 "ICH" -- -- In this age of modernity and technology, where the television monitor has become the center of the average American household, from cradle to grave acting as surrogate parent, teacher, role model and as influencer of human thought, it should come as no surprise that entire populations can be controlled with such facility and efficiency, turning once thinking humans into grazing sheeple. For in today’s day and age, he who controls television controls the masses, and he who controls the masses controls the nation. Television has become, quite simply, the greatest tool of mass manipulation and thought control civilization has ever seen, an incarnation of the myriad of myths, fables, fictions, story telling, theologies and all other forms of ‘bread and circus’ history’s elite have concocted from which to retain power and control the lower echelons of man’s corrosive pyramid of hierarchy. In the television the elite have found the greatest weapon of mass control, seemingly able to dictate culture, politics, events, thought and destiny from the moment of birth to the time of death. It can even be said that it is they who can determine reality in twenty-first century America, magically making history disappear, altering the past, changing the present and molding the future. Reality is what they want it to be, shifting culture to their dictates, conditioning minds to fit their goals, pushing society in the direction that most benefits them and erasing from memory any manifestation that does not correspond to the reality they wish to create. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11242.htm phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 172 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 08:47 pm:        moderaters - I haven't seen much talk about the illuminati here at this forum and aren't sure if there was a reason for this? How come a illuminati thread section hasn't been started here at this forum yet because aren't the illuminati's supposed to playing one of the biggest role in all this worldwide political corruption problem? I don't really know much about them myself to know if they are, its just what I read at some known good sources/sites says that they are is all. phil Newinitiation Member Post Number: 56 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 09:38 pm:        Dear Tjames Thanks for the response. For truly to understand peoples intentions and motives for the basis and origin of their thoughts requires patience and deeper understanding for which it's a lesson I learn everyday. Now the english language or for that matter any language definitely have their limitations, not only do words have their meaning but it's how you say it and in what context, from which idea, feelings or emotions. Anyway if we each other have been misunderstood, then obviously it cannot be entirely the fault of our own lack of concise understanding of the language but taking into consideration other causes for which that perpetual motion of trying to clarify by saying, 'no I meant this and this ' emerges, so really there is no point in engaging in such actions, for what in the end truly matters is that although we cannot understand each other completely, that we continue in the act of trying to understand. Anyway visit Mr lyndon larouche's website- www.larouche.com, he may be one political voice we can support to make changes. In terms of the ideas I have on averting future catastrophe, You might have to backtrack and read my previous posts to get an idea on where I stand on this, If I had it my way I guess the ultimate solution would be that most of humanity know about billy's spiritual teachings and adopt it's teachings to their lives for which the plejarens have brought to us for our benefit, yet met with dismal failure for so long. I know we haven't got much time before the potentials WW3 to eventuate but it's still a prophecy which can be changed and I know it cannot be done by spreading the news about billy that michael horn and gaiaguys are so doing so diligently and with so much effort, but thanks to them that many more people are aware of billy and more participate in the peace meditation, I am such example. Gives us your feedback on what your views are regarding lydon larouche and his executive intelligence committee website. peace be with you Scott Moderator Post Number: 714 Registered: 12-1999 Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 05:16 am:        Phil, Maybe, according to Billy the Illuminati is not as big as people think it is. Please refer to the following link: http://forum.figu.org/us/messages/12/3296.html#POST9664 Regards Scott-Moderator Newinitiation Member Post Number: 59 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 05:44 pm:        dear phil638 Hi phil638, I hope it was just a humourous geture on your part when you've written my forum name as newinvitation, I take it with good heart Anyway regarding hunger strikes, for me to explain to you adequately the logistics and minute details of where I am coming from in respect to using this from of force so that at least you give careful consideration will take too much of this forum space, although the whole point in discussing such matters pertains to the ultimate questions of survival and that many on this forum should be privy to it, I cannot help but ask you your email address so that I can send it to you for your eyes to see and whether in it there is something relevant that you can pick up and know what my thoughts are. as I said before on the previous post, there are limitations to the language and thats why every little details have to be articulated and further explanation provided. peace be with you Phil638 Member Post Number: 174 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 02:51 am:        originally posted by scott - "Phil, Maybe, according to Billy the Illuminati is not as big as people think it is. Please refer to the following link: http://forum.figu.org/us/messages/12/3296.html#POST9664" billy meier questions answered section section - ----------------------------------------------- Hi Billy Do you know of the Illuminati? are they "good" or "bad"? If you don't know of this and other groups on earth that has had advanced knowledge of ET existance for many years, how do you then feel about the Pleiadeans keeping this information even from you? -Dan Answer Hi Dan, This is a religious European sect, a very small minority, no world organization. There is much hearsay about this group, and much fantasy/fiction about it. ------------------------------------------------------- Strange, because I was under the impression that the illuminti problem was a much greater problem in the world (and WW3) then what billy says it is there because of how many illuminati people ther are who have been past and present worldwide high ranking government people. Such as bill clinton, george bush jnr and jnr as well as nearly half of all other U.S. congress people too, and then onto other parts of the world such as china's president, australia and england's prime ministers and so many other government, militry, media and corporate positions and places of the world too? I'm not doubting what billy said there because I would always believe what billy says about something over what anyone else says about it anyday, but do you think that billy was telling the truth there and that there might have been a reason for billy for now being forced somewhat there to play the illuminati people's role down in all this, if he was? I'm just asking this because I don't know if there might be reasons that could force billy to sometimes hold back on revealling what the true nature of the problem could be relating to some government and militry corruption issues and things? originally posted by Newinitiation - "Hi phil638, I hope it was just a humourous geture on your part when you've written my forum name as newinvitation, I take it with good heart" I'm sorry Newinitiation, I honestly don't know how I come to write your name in that way. It was honestly all an accident on my behalf. I also like to say that I wasn't trying to knock your opinion before with how you said was a way with how to deal with this worldwide government corruption problem either. I was just trying to show you that method that you suggested before in how to deal with this problem could never happen because the corrupt governments of the world are in control of all the mainstream media outlets is all. I should also say that I wouldn't really know if my riot method I had suggested before in how to deal with this government corruption problem would be successful either. I really wouldn't know if it would and I don't think that anyone else really knows too, but I do believe that billy and plejarens would know how too. peace be between us both - phil Norm Member Post Number: 740 Registered: 02-2000 Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 04:52 pm:        Phil, Did you ever think that maybe the whole Illuminati world conspiracy is nothing more than disinfo? Just because the same conspiracy get repeated in book after book doesn't make it real. I use to think it was real, but I have to go with Meier on this now there's just to much made up crap out there. A lot of the illuminati story was enhanced by Christians claiming it was controlled by a Devil or Jews. It makes me wonder how much of Earths history is also false. Mhurley Member Post Number: 110 Registered: 04-2003 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:12 am:        Hi Norm You've hit the nail on the head. This is one of the pitfalls of the net, someone reads something and then assumes it to be true, the "fact" then gets spread around... Matt Phil638 Member Post Number: 175 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:00 pm:        hi norm, I don't doubt what billy said about the illuminati, I was just wondering if he might have been holding back with any information relating to them for whatever reasons is all. I wondered about this because of how many illuminati people there have been past and present who had high ranking governmental jobs in many worldwide nations and were known as being corrupt people. Their all illuminati's, even the antichrist G.W.Bush = 666 the beast and his father are both illuminati's. Then theres Australia and England's prime ministers as well as china's president and so on, including all the illuminati people operating as government people within all of those nations too. We know that all three corrupt leaders from the U.S., England and Australia have been scheming things together for years now and all three leaders have got one thing in common and that is they are all illuminati? And its not just them three because there are so many illuminati's in power jobs all around the world too. This kind of contradicts what billy said about the illuminati's not being a world organisation, when to me they do appear to be like a world organisation with how they've infested themselves into governments positions of all nations of the western world as well as into many government positions of nations of the eastern world too. Because of all that, I wondered if maybe billy may have been deliberatley playing them down there. But I'm not saying that billy was doing that, I'm just speculating there and saying how the illuminati's do appear to be a world organisation and wondered if any other people also think that maybe billy might have been deliberately playing them down there is all. I'm aware that billy probably does hold back on some information and things relating to his vast knowledge of whats going on within our worldwide corrupt government nations and powers that be, and I just wondered if perhaps this might have been one of those things that he may have been holding back some information on is all, but again I wouldn't really know and are only speculating. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 176 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 03:48 pm:        hi mhurley, I would just like to add some more futher detail and reasons to go with my post above because when I had posted it before your post wasn't there is why. here is just one of the many things that lead me to think that the illuminati are playing a major role in our worldy affiars and not a minor role as billy said they were. Again I'm not saying billy is wrong, I'm just wondering if its possible that billy could be for now just holding back on some information about them for whatever reason. the Giza intelligences used numerology to carry out their evil plan with jesus = 666 and the illuminati/OTO Freemasons are Giza related and its well known that the illuminati also follow and use numerology too. And according to freemasonary/illuminati the number '11' symbolizes all that is evil and imperfect. And we're all well aware here that the world trade centre attacks were orchestrated by the united states and not by bin laden. Now here's some WTC attack facts and please explain to me why the entire World Trade Center event was underlined with the occultic number 11 or is this all just pure coincedence? WTC Facts: The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11. Each building had "11"0 stories. After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year. September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11. 119 is the area code for Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11, 911 - 119 are opposites - enemies? 11 11 polarity. Twin Towers - standing side by side, looks like the number 11. The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11. Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11. Flight 11 had 11 crew members onboard. Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11. State of New York - The 11th State added to the Union. "New York City" has 11 letters. "Afghanistan" - 11 letters. "The Pentagon" - 11 letters. "Ramzi Yousef" - 11 letters (convicted of orchestrating the attack on the WTC in 1993). please have a quick look at this site - http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/wtc/index02.htm please explain if all those "11"'s on the WTC attacks were purely coincedence or if it was carried out in the illuminati's occult trademark according to their religous sect and if it was does this mean they were behind it then? now if you could please have another read of the question about the illuminati organisation/people to billy again and then his answer - ---------------------------------- Hi Billy Do you know of the Illuminati? are they "good" or "bad"? -Dan Answer Hi Dan, This is a religious European sect, a very small minority, no world organization. ------------------------------------ now please read carefully what ptaah says here - During the 232nd contact of November 17th 1989: Ptaah: "we have refrained from contacts with Americans, and will do so forever, unless it should happen that this nation and its government and secret government". Later in that same contact he states "those who are guided by religious sects or governments with plans aiming at world dominance, as is the case also with certain terrestrial organizations that strive for world dominance." and please also read this carefully below, keeping in mind that the person/beast 666 mentioned therein is g.w.bush who is 666 = The Beast/antichrist and who is also a illuminati - In the book AN OPEN WORD verse 1369 it states the following. "During the New Age of the future 20th and 21st centuries the destructive beast bearing the number 666 would become active, that is, religious cults, unequal sects as well as secret organizations, would flood the entire mankind with their sectarian madness in delusional beliefs." g.w.bush is 666 = The Beast/antichrist and is an illuminati. That was just two things I put forward there which seem to contradict with what billy said about the illuminati playing a minor role in our worldly affairs. Again I'm not saying that billy is wrong because I would always believe what billy says about something over what anyone else says about it anyday. But its the plejarens I'm talking about here and I'm unsure if some things the plejarens had said in the contact notes refer to the illuminati or not. Also I'm unsure because of other things and events on top of that like the occult number 11 being written all over the WTC atacks. What I'm trying to say here is (coz of stuff like that above) that there appears to be some contradiction going on there as well as other things going on with creates some suspicion of how big of role the illuminati people/organisation are playing in all this and because of that I wondered if there was anything going on like billy maybe holding back on some information relating to the illuminati organisation for now in case they might be the world major bad players. phil Norm Member Post Number: 741 Registered: 02-2000 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 03:50 pm:        "I wondered about this because of how many illuminati people there have been past and present who had high ranking governmental jobs in many worldwide nations and were known as being corrupt people. " How do you know who's in the Illuminatti? If there's no such thing, how can you state you know who's in an organization that is secret or according to Meier doesn't even exist anymore. Lonnie Member Post Number: 95 Registered: 12-1999 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 07:40 pm:        Phil and everyone, What Billy said about the "Illuminai" cannot be false. This is just a small European religious sect as he said. There is much misunderstanding about this. The thing is, the word 'Illuminati" has been used to label other groups and organizations of the global elite. So, these secret groups and organizations, with much power and influence, and having their own fraternities made up of religious beliefs and rituals handed down to them, are separate from the so called "Illuminati" group. They may or may not share many of the same illogical beliefs. This also fits in with what Billy said about how money rules the world. The global elite have a tremendous influence on politics and the economy. I think that this is one reason why it is so difficult to bring about any positive change in the world. My opinion. Those of us around the world who are living by the natural, creational laws and directives, whether a part of the FIGU or not, have been a stable and nuetralizing influence to such an extent, that this may be part of the reason why we have not destroyed ourselves so far. Lonnie Morton Newinitiation Member Post Number: 65 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 09:05 pm:        dear forum members There is information out there about the rothchilds whose zionist agendas date back to the 18th century if I remember correctly. According to some (www.iamthewitness.com), they rule the world by having an controlling interests in practically most of the big banks around the world and their shareholdings on major world corporations and conglomerates, not to mention the people in high positions in political, economic and educational institutions. Now, the likes of george soros and other zionists whose support for the zionist cause is well documented minus their insidious agendas thats kept well away from the common peoples sights but which many people have voiced their concerns and outrage over, even some sections of the jewish community who are used as porns in the zionist agendas are opposed to the zionist's agendas. I wonder though how far the truth is concerning the zionists, the rothchilds, the jewish people and what is their role concerning the world events that we are witness to at present?. There is so much rubbish we have to wade through concerning the enormous amount of information out there that sometimes the misinformation seems like the truth, an honest fact seems like a lie and in between there is the outright lie coupled with some truths or the truth coupled with some lies all going in different directions. So you are just there having to try and corroborate what the factual truths are only to get more confused. I know what Jmmanuel had said concerning achieving the wisdom of knowledge but these things are very hard to corroborate with absolute certainty conforming to fact. some feedback would be nice peace be with you all Phil638 Member Post Number: 177 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 09:49 pm:        originally posted by norm - "How do you know who's in the Illuminatti? If there's no such thing, how can you state you know who's in an organization that is secret or according to Meier doesn't even exist anymore." hi norm, I have no idea who's in the illuminati, I only know a few of them. This is what I don't understand about how billy said that the illumniati's are not a worldwide organisation when in fact the illuminati/knights templer/freemasons (same thing) are a worldwide organisation. Have a read of this from the official Web site of the Grand Freemasonary Lodge of Virginia in the U.S. - Who Are The Masons? Masons (also known as Freemasons) belong to the oldest and largest fraternal organization in the world. Today, there are more than two million Freemasons in North America. Masons represent virtually every occupation and profession, yet within the Fraternity, all meet as equals. Masons come from diverse political ideologies, yet meet as friends. Masons come from varied religious beliefs and creeds, yet all believe in one God. Many of North America's early patriots were Freemasons. Thirteen signers of the Constitution and fourteen Presidents of the United States, including George Washington, were Masons. In Canada, the Father of the Confederation, Sir John A. MacDonald, was a Mason, as were other early Canadian and American leaders. http://www.grandlodgeofvirginia.org/whomason.htm Its also well known that the three leaders of australia, england and the U.S. (last 3 U.S. presdnts were all illuminati) are all illuminati's as well as some leaders of other nations of the world too, so if them three are sitting up there in top position you can imagine how many of them are sitting underneath them too. Also bush's running candidate for U.S. presendency was john kerry and he was also an illuminati too. So whoever won out of them two,it was always going to be an illuminati that got the U.S. presidency. I watched a documentary recently called "national treasure fact vs fiction" that was about the film called "national treasure" which was partly based on the knights templers (illumniati) role in the dealings and of holding many of the U.S.'s government and U.S. congress leading positions dating back since the signing of the Declaration of Independence by Benjamin Franklin. Anyway they were interviewing a high ranking U.S. congressman (who was a knights templer) for about 15 minutes and they were asking him all sorts of questions relating to the knights templer (illuminati) dealings in the U.S. administration and U.S. congress. He was being very thorough and direct with answering any questions the journalist was asking him which all had to do with the knights templers role over the past U.S. administration and congress for the purpose of establishing what was fact from what was fiction about the knights templer in the film national treasure. after that he gave the interviewer a guilded tour through the U.S. congress house showing all sort of historical things relating to the knights templers and then he went on to state that nearly HALF of today's U.S. congressman are all knights templer too. I had no idea that there were that many of them in sitting in U.S. congress today. He also said that many of the U.S.'s highest ranking court judges are knights templers too. I didn't see any reason for him to be lying there about saying any of that because it was all to establish what was fact from what was fiction in the film "national treasure" that had to do with the past historical events about the knights templer. He was a high ranking U.S. congressingman and he was very knowlegable about everything that he was talking about as well as also seemed like why he was specially chosen as person who could answer all this information about the knights templer. Your also probably aware of the illuminati's all seeeing eye that is printed on the american one dollar bill? - http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1731.cfm Anyway I'm just asking if it could be possible that the illuminati could be playing a major role in our worldly governmental affairs and not a minor role like billy had said, and could it be possible that billy said they were playing a minor role because he had a reason too? Again I'm not saying that he did, I'm just asking if this could be so because I don't know if billy does those sort of things. Also I'm not very knowlegable about the illuminati's or about these type of matters either, and as such all these things which don't add up about the illuminati gives the appearence to me like as if the illuminati do seem to be a major world player in the going ons of our world political affairs. If Dyson or Vivienne from gaiaguys were still posting regularly here, I'm sure they would have been able to help me out with letting me know if this could be true about this matter. p.s norm and mhurley, if you could please return me your thoughts on the questions I had asked you both in my prior post before I posted this post, i'ld appreciate it, thx. phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 178 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:30 pm:        I made a minor mistake in prior post to this one when i said that bit about "illuminati/knights templer/freemasons (same thing)", when I meant to say that they are virtually the same thing. I also forgot to mention in that post that all of the high ranking government people that I spoke about who were illuminati's are really freemasons and not illuminati's. I got a bit mixed up with that but the freemasons have been proven to be directly linked with the illuminati's and its also been proven that they are both working together on whatever things too. Also please don't forget to look at that link I posted in my prior second post above where i got all that "11" stuff related to the world trade centre attacks from because theres so much more "11" stuff about the WTC attacks on there, and let me know what your thoughts are about all that please. Is it all just pure coincedence or is it something else? I don't know and why I am asking and also why I'm a bit confused with it all too. http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/wtc/index02.htm phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 179 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:42 pm:        This is written on gaiaguys front page - "These are the Eastern Templar powerful core Freemasons who call THEMSELVES The ILLUMINATI." http://www.gaiaguys.net/index.html I just call them all illuminati's. -------------------------------- moderator could you please put this message above somewhere in with my prior post i posted before this one so as to avoid me making too many posts in a short time, thx phil Sean140 New member Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 02:50 am:        Norm has a good point, we have never really known exactly who is in the Illuminatti. Also what is the math behind Bush being The Beast? I don't remember seeing it anywhere on the forum before. As you can see this is my first post so i'll introduce myself real quick. Iv been reading and watching this FIGU forum for about the past 2 years now. Now I feel i'm well informed enough to get involved with some of the discussions. Plus I'm highly interested in all the Meier material and care about what happens in the world. Salome Norm Member Post Number: 742 Registered: 02-2000 Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 05:11 pm:        The so-called Beast is not a person! So it can't be Bush! Message from Pleiades Volume 2 Page 74. Semjase- "This is the prophesied anti-time or the anti-Christ time, in which the Earth human will release himself from the religious delusion and turn himself toward the truth again." Message from the Pleiades Volume 2. Page 163. Semjase- "The value and worth of the number 666 concerns, in German language terms, the matters of God Church, Christ and Jesus. Jesus is the incorrect named for Jmmanuel, who already in his lifetime was against this nomination, because he knew the future, and knew what would be made of him. Jesus is the value of the anti-logos, which the Christian church altered to anti-Christ, for which as well the true lessons of Jmmanuel became changed until undiscernible. These matters were already known by the cabalists for around two thousand years, which is why they always try to falsify the values of the numbers, as I already explained. The animal (The Beast) is only to be seen as a symbol, because in truth it concerns a worldwide organization with a three-part name. This organization is embodied by the church and its adherents..." Phil638 Member Post Number: 180 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 01:02 am:        Originally posted by Norm - "The so-called Beast is not a person! So it can't be Bush!" your right norm, it doesn't relate to a single person but it relates to a worldwide organisation like Semjase said it does there. But what have I've been talking about here in this thread and who am I refferring to too? I've been talking about Bush being an illuminati and I've been talking about the illuminati organisation being the prophecised evil worldwide organisation that is going to bring so much death and destruction to the world and I've also been talking about how I think that billy might be deliberately playing them down too. You just posted it yourself norm - Semjase: The animal (The Beast) is only to be seen as a symbol, because in truth it concerns a worldwide organization with a three-part name. This organization is embodied by the church and its adherents..." Could the three part name of this organisation which is embodied by a church be - knights templar/freemasons/illuminati ??? I believe it most certainly could be. But norm I think its still questionable anyway about it not reffering to Bush individually, because have a look at what Quetzal said to billy in Contact 230 - Contact 230 - Billy: monstrous, really monstrous. it would also be just as monstrous if/when the world trade centre would be destroyed by terrorists with captured comercial airplanes, through which thousands of people would die, that Bush junior - and various of his criminal trusted ones knew that then, however undertook nothing against it. A criminal act that gains Bush the upper hand and he can let loose against Islam, naturally always under the cloak/veil that they would free the USA and the world from terrorism. It would not be discussed that it would be the Bushes who would bring the greatest terror over the world, at least for the next 15 years. Quetzal: 666 that is correct. http://www.theyfly.com/newsletter/aug05/aug05.htm Did you notice how Queztal called him 666 after Billy was discussing Bush and his criminal trusted ones being responsible for the World Trade Centre attacks? So does that mean that I was right when I said that the illuminati were the ones responsible for orchestrating the WTC attacks? It looks like that. I might also have been right in what I've been suggesting here in this thread all along too. I think the 3 people who were quick to dismiss what I was suggesting and putting forward here as nonsense should reread what I posted before in my prior post and I would appreciate it if they could also please return me their thoughts on what they think all those evil "11"s that were written all over the WTC attacks were. --------------------------------------------- Originally posted by phil638 - the Giza intelligences used numerology to carry out their evil plan with jesus = 666 and the illuminati/OTO Freemasons are Giza related and its well known that the illuminati also follow and use numerology too. And according to freemasonary/illuminati the number '11' symbolizes all that is evil and imperfect. And we're all well aware here that the world trade centre attacks were orchestrated by the united states and not by bin laden. Now here's some WTC attack facts and please explain to me why the entire World Trade Center event was underlined with the occultic number 11 or is this all just pure coincedence? WTC Facts: The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11. Each building had "11"0 stories. After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year. September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11. 119 is the area code for Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11, 911 - 119 are opposites - enemies? 11 11 polarity. Twin Towers - standing side by side, looks like the number 11. The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11. Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11. Flight 11 had 11 crew members onboard. Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11. State of New York - The 11th State added to the Union. "New York City" has 11 letters. "Afghanistan" - 11 letters. "The Pentagon" - 11 letters. "Ramzi Yousef" - 11 letters (convicted of orchestrating the attack on the WTC in 1993). please have a quick look at this site and look at all the other "11"s that I didn't post - http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/wtc/index02.htm -------------------------------------------------------------- Was it all just pure coincedence or could it be the illuminati's fingerprints all over it? My opinion is based on %'s I believe that no way known could that be pure coincedence. It's the Giza intelligences offspring/related ones fingerprints and doings that were left all over it and couldn't possible be anything else. So if the illuminati organisation were responsible for the WTC attacks, then does that mean that the illuminati organisation is that evil worldwide organisation that is going to bring so much death and destruction to the world in these coming times as has been prophecised? If so, then does that mean that there might have been some truth in what I've been saying here all along and that is - Originally posted by phil638 - "is it possible that the illuminati could be playing a major role in our worldly governmental affairs and not a minor role like billy had said, and could it be possible that billy said they were playing a minor role because he had a reason too?" I eagerly await to hear a reply from Mhurley, Norm and Lonnie who were quick and adamant in dismissing what I had to say here as sheer nonsense. For a little while now I've been thinking about how a few things about everything in general just didn't seem to add up to me and just recently this is what I've been now starting to think about what might be going on. I leave this up for discussion - G.W.Bush and his Illuminati organisation that he belongs too = 666 The Beast, Antichrist. If so then why did billy play them down for? One possibility could be the risk of greater increase in assasination attempts? Phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 181 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 02:40 am:        I posted this recently at steelmark forums - G.W. BUSH is 666 The Beast and is the Antichrist and this has also been proven by using the known science of numerology. from webpage below - George Walker Bush is the ANTI-CHRIST 666 = The Beast. The violence and destruction that began when Bush first entered office, is now certain to culminate in the apocalypse, as predicted in the Bible over 2,000 years ago. George Bush's name is equal to 666 if we use the Hebrew letter equivalents. It is also equal to 666 if we use the two most commonly used systems in numerology as well as in ASCII code......................................(too many equations to be listed here - refer to webpage below)......................................there you have it - 666 - the number of the Beast, absolutely any way you care to add it up. The number of his name in Hebrew = 666. The number of his name using the Pythagorean system = 6. The Chaldean system = 6. ASCII code = 6. The number of his birthday = 6. His lucky number = 6. The number of the date when he was first elected Governor = 6. When he is first inaugurated Governor = 6. The number when he was inaugurated president of the United States = 6. The number of the man/beast named George Walker Bush = 666. http://www.bushisantichrist.com/ ------------------------------------------ Semjase: The animal (The Beast) is only to be seen as a symbol, because in truth it concerns a worldwide organization with a three-part name. This organization is embodied by the church and its adherents..." Could the three part name of this organisation which is embodied by a church be - Knights Templar/Freemasons/Illuminati??? those three organisations are virtually one and the same. My opinion is - G.W.Bush and his Illuminati organisation which he belongs too are = 666 The Beast, Antichrist. phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 182 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 03:15 am:        I forgot to say there in my above post to add onto the end there as part of my opinion was - and billy must of lied and played the illuminati down for whatever reason he had to do that for. I'd appreciate it if anyone else who wants to dismiss everything I've been saying here all along as sheer nonsense, if they could please give details in their posts why its nonsense and why none of it could be true, instead of just saying that its not true because billy said so. And if what I'm saying here happens to be true, then I cannot prove this and it would be pointless for anyone to ask billy about this because he would continue to say the same thing for whatever reason he has to do that for. phil Sean140 New member Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 07:10 am:        I have to agree with you Phil, there does seem to be more to the Illuminati than Billy has said. But I don't think Billy has anything to gain from working with them. So far all Billy has said is that the Illuminati is in Europe, this could be anywhere in Europe including Switzerland. If the members hold some power in the Swiss government then they could take action against Billy if he threatened the organization some how. The governement could declare Billy and FIGU a terrorist organization. This obviously would have an impact on Billy's mission along with tainting all the things that he has tought. Perhaps by him not saying anything he is simply doing so with concern to the mission and all of the FIGU members. The Illuminati could very well be a huge organization that permeates multiple layers of government throughout the world like you seem to suspect. But perhaps it isn't necessary to directly identify all of the organizations that make it up or exactly who it's members are. It would seem that all we need to know at the moment is that it does exist and it's working to accomplish it's very negative and destructive goals. So far its fairly clear that Bush is a member of this organization and they are using him to help accomplish their goals. Well, thats my two cents. Phil638 Member Post Number: 183 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 07:40 am:        norm I forgot to say thanks for posting that semjase bit for me because i been meaning to post that in before you had posted it but was having trouble finding it. I also like to add that whoever pulled off the WTC attacks in the U.S. must be the highest power elite in the U.S., and if the illuminati were the ones who did that, then they must be the highest power elite in the U.S. My opinion from the start of this discussion was that they are not just that in the U.S. but they must also be that major worldwide power elite organisation that was vaguely reffered to in the contacts notes a couple of times by the plejarens. And consider this like I did - why didn't the plejarens name that worldwide corrupt organisation who is "the beast" directly by name and why hasn't billy done the same thing too, and why does billy appear to be lying there about the illuminati not being a major world organisation player when they appear to be just that and also why did billy seem to be quick in saying there that the illuminati organisation is not that major world player too as well as (going by what I've seen to date so far, which is not as much as most others here) why hasn't billy ever spoken much about them anywhere too? ---------------------------------- Hi Billy Do you know of the Illuminati? are they "good" or "bad"? -Dan Answer Hi Dan, This is a religious European sect, a very small minority, no world organization. ------------------------------------ I previously posted this from the official website of the Grand Freemasonary Lodge of Virgina in the U.S. - Who Are The Masons? Masons (also known as Freemasons) belong to the oldest and largest fraternal organization in the world. Today, there are more than two million Freemasons in North America. Masons represent virtually every occupation and profession, yet within the Fraternity, all meet as equals. Masons come from diverse political ideologies, yet meet as friends. Masons come from varied religious beliefs and creeds, yet all believe in one God. Many of North America's early patriots were Freemasons. Thirteen signers of the Constitution and fourteen Presidents of the United States, including George Washington, were Masons. In Canada, the Father of the Confederation, Sir John A. MacDonald, was a Mason, as were other early Canadian and American leaders. http://www.grandlodgeofvirginia.org/whomason.htm ?????????????? as well as many other things I mentioned and brought up in my previous posts which further supports what I'm saying about the illuminati here in this post, if any care to look or care to refresh their memory again. I know I'm repeating myself again but like I said before at the start of this discussion here and that is that I believe that the minor illuminati organisation that most people here believed it to be because billy said it was, is in my opinion not that but is that major worldwide power elite organisation that billy said they weren't, and also that the illuminati are "666 The beast" too (and g.w.bush too) and that billy must have been deliberately playing them down there in that post for whatever reason he had to be doing that for. I leave this up for everyones discussion and won't bother saying much more about it until others have had a chance to discuss it and hopefully someone else might be able to add some more onto it for me to consolidate my belief in it that the illuminati are just that because I'm still not %100 positively sure about it is why. I believe that they are that but I don't know if they are that. phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 154 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 04:53 am:        Hi kingman, I'm not sure but I think you might have misunderstood me a bit with what I was trying to say up there. You said this to me here in your post above saying how you think I'm jumping the gun a bit and also ready to destroy stuff too - "I see your point to the extent when your life and those you care about are about to be killed, anyone would be foolish to not defend themselves. But I feel your jumping the gun so to speak. Your life isn't immediately in danger of being lost, and your ready to destroy things according to your statements. This is my response to your position." Before I explain myself a bit more on that I want to quickly run through what I'm trying to say there in my post above from start to finish, just to confirm or establish a few things about what I am exactly there so theres no further confusion and then I'll give you my opinion on wether or not I'll agree with opinion above in saying that I think I am jumping the gun a bit in all this. In the first sentence of my post above I agreed with what both lonnie and yourself said about violence or force should only be used as a last resort. Here it is in my first sentence - "I don't doubt what you both say about the laws of cause and effect and about how violence or force should always be used only as a last resort" So I agree with you both that violence should only be used as a last resort. After that I said this was my opinion on when I think is the time when common people should use violence to address this government corruption problem - "What I'm saying is that when these corrupt meglomaniacal political power people and their corrupt organisations that are about to put the life of just about everyone on the planet in danger (WW3) and IF THE ONLY POSSIBLE ACTION WHICH CAN BE DONE to remove these corrupt people out of power is to use violence or force, then thats what I believe should be done". Jus tto clear anything up the only thing I'm saying there is that when doomsday is just about on the doorstep and all other possible actions that could be used to stop these megolmaniacal governments from wanting to take us all into WW3 (WW3 = 2/3rd ppl world dying) have all failed then as a last resort I said that is the time when I believe that common people should resort to using violence or force to try to remove some of the corrupt politicans within their government as an attempt to try to stop that nation from wanting to enter WW3 because only the corrupt politican and people within a government would avoid/stop their country from entering into a war against another country for economic or meglomaniacal power reasons. There is no point mentioning here my opinion on what if a country is forced to go to war to defend itself because that wouldn't happen unless you first had all these sick meglomaniacal corrupt governmental political people in other nations of the world who first wanted to take control or concuer another country first. Its these people that are the only ones responsible for any wars starting between anyone. However, that was all I said to you in my post above where I had made any reference to what type of action I think that common people of the world should take to address this meglomaniac government corruption problem which is problem that could then give rise to the WW3 problem, the rest of what I said there after I said in that last quote of mine above was all in regards to only how I felt personally about the matter and what choices I would make if certian situations/senarios arose was all. I didn't say anywhere there that is what everyone else should do too. Heres is where I started talking about what I would personally do if certain situations happened and is also what the rest of my post was referring to, my choices - "If I found out that there was going to be a violent riot to protest against my countries political and media corruption problem and the rioters were going to torch certain government and media buildings to get their message accross, I would definately choose to be there" I never said anywhere there that all other possible actions that could have been used to tackle this governmental corruption problem before WW3 had well started have been tried, used and then therefore say that the decision to join that torching government buildings riot senario above is the correct choice that most other common people should also choose like me. I never said that and that was only my choice with what I would do if that situation ever arose was all and the main reason why I would choose to go help the other rioters in that riot senario if it happened now at this moment in time is only because I believe that if theres a very real possibility that I could die because of some future event thats supposed to happen soon (WW3) and the odds are %70 that I will die, (2/3rd world die WW3) then that is the reason why I would choose to do something now and would choose to participate in that violent protest riot and help the other rioters who organized to start that violent riot to do with torching government buildings. The reason I would do that is to help the others of my country in voicing a stronger protest to my nations government about the common peoples awareness and unhappiness of our governments political corruption problem. In short when I know that my life could very well be in danger, I don't see the logic or reason why I should be pussyfooting around with these meglomaniacal corrupt political people who could end up being the ones responsible for bringing about my future death. Why should I decide to pussyfoot around and leave all my best shots for the last shot, last resort or for the last minute when I don't know wether or not it could be too late to use my best shots at the last minute. This is why I said this shortly after I said my last quote I just quoted above - "I for one will never choose to just sit there and hope for the best OR HOPE FOR SOMETHING TO HAPPEN WHICH MAY NEVER HAPPEN when i know my life is in danger". Kingman, I would like to speculate about a couple of ficticious things and senarios now. What is the best outcome and what is the worse outcome of what could happen if I joined in with the other rioters in that ficticious torching government buildings protest riot I spoke about above? In Australia, the worst thing that could happen to me if I joined in that riot and ended up getting busted as being one of the rioters who firebombed a government building, the worst thing is that I would have to go to court and then either end up getting a 2-5 year good behaviour bond or end up going to jail for a few months. Thats the worst thing that could happen to me for joining in that riot, and all I can say if I did cop that worst outcome of participating in that riot is big deal really, because I know in reality thats not going to hurt much at all. Now consider what I was hoping to acheive out of going in that riot and what it was that could really be at stake for me here too and I am only talking in reality about me participating in a violent riot where the rioters are firebombimg some certain government buildings. Thats the reality of what I'd be doing if I participated in that riot, isn't it? Well my opinion is that the reality of what I'd be actually doing there is called kids stuff and all I'd cop as my punishment if I'd got busted doing that is a kick up the ass with a good behaviour bond from some judge. I don't have a criminal record and I'd tell the judge the reason I did that is because I was deeply emotionally upset and horrified in finding out that my government is full of corruptment within it. Wether the Oz government is corrupt or not is totally besides the point and does not matter because all that matters is that is what I believed at the time and why I acted in that most unusual way too. Now lets speculate on whats the best outcome that could happen out of some angry Oz common people getting together in that riot to torch some Oz government buildings. The riot immediately gets massive mainstream media publicity (which it definately will too) on TV showing all these rioters carrying huge banners reading "certain government corruption" problems and also showing these angry Oz rioters (who are Oz common citizen btw) and showing how angry they are in what their protesting about by firebombing various Oz government buildings. These rioters being shown across all mainstream media outlets are nothing more then some Oz common citizens who are voicing to its Oz government about their unhappiness and awareness of what they believe its Oz government is all about, and they are also showing how scared they are of its Oz corrupt government. It soon enough becomes the worst fear and thing that any corrupt government and corrupt politicians would ever want to see happen because it would immediately and definately also too bring out through all of OZ mainstream media outlets the incident and the issue of the OZ government corruption problem and horror of whats going on to all Oz general public's and common peoples attention, which then for the next few weeks will bring the Oz government and politician corruption problem up for discussion over most Oz mainstream media outlets and would also probably be the most talked about hot topic too. Over the next few weeks, this type of huge Oz mainstream media publicity raises all of Oz's general public's awareness on the issue and automatically gets everyone talking on policies, issues and dealings of the Oz government and its politicians. This will inevitably lead to the exposer of a lot of corrupt policies, actions and past dealings of some of the main obvious corrupt Oz politicians culprits within the Oz government which inturn informs more and more of everyone in OZ general public who didn't know how corrupt their government and politicians really are, as well as informing all Oz general public about the extent of how bad the corruption problem really was within the Oz government and politicians. It horrifies most of the Oz general public what their now finding out and it also informs everyone in OZ general public about who some of the obvious main corrupt politicians are when these corrupt politicians are exposed over any past corrupt actions and dealings they oversaw while they were in that governmental position their in. This will also inform everyone in OZ about any corrupt policies there might be out there that for no reason unfairly affect all the common people of Oz (designed to controll them) and should be changed, as well as exposing any corrupt policies that are there only for the purpose of protecting these corrupt politicians misdealings too. That type of Oz public publicity over past few weeks has just horrified most Oz general public and all of OZ general public is waiting impatiently to see what the OZ government and all the "good" OZ government politicians are going to do to all those corrupt politicians that were expoxed. This becomes the worst nightmare the Oz government and politicians have ever had or could even ever imagine too and they are even more horrified then the Oz general public over everything that has just transpired over the past few weeks with all these angry people in OZ general public becoming now aware of the extent and magnitude of the corruptness within the Oz government and the corruptness of some of Oz's govermnent politicians too, as well as becoming aware of some of the corrupt policies, actions, favouritism and dealings that was going on between some corrupt Oz politicians and some of Oz's corrupt corporate organizations too, and after all this has been brought out to the publics awareness the OZ government decides to quickly act to clean up its image and decides to do some Oz government dirty housecleaning and ends up sacking all those corrupt politicians that got exposed as being corrupt, and under public pressure shortly decides to setup some sort of system or independant committee watchdog who's job it is to find and expose any future corrupt Oz politicians operating within the Oz government as well as exposing any corrupt policies they find which are not in the best interest of the Oz common people but are only there for no reason, and for this independant watchdog to report these findings to the Oz government and also to the Oz people too. A good thing has just happened in OZ. All Oz common people now see its government in a new frame of light and are now always closely watching its Oz government like a hawk after they found out its Oz government cannot be trusted to be left there to run the country alone without being watched, and the Oz government now sees the Oz common people in a new frame of light too and is now forced to change its tune and to always have a clean act. The Oz common people now expect and insist on a lot better performance from its Oz government in how the Oz government makes future polocies and with who's best interest its in that it now governs the country. Shortly after that bowing to public pressure the Oz government decide to pull out all of its troops out of Iraq that were sent there to help the corrupt U.S. Bush administration government. The Oz government also decided for the benefit of all Oz people to never go to fight in any future war against any country unless it was only out of self defence and as such the future has become a whole lot rosier and better for the good of the Oz common people and as such Oz stayed out of WW3 and Oz escaped WW3 relatively unscaved. That was the best case senario that I could think of that could have happened out of that violent protest riot against the Oz government. I also think that if a little bit of that best case violent riot senario happened in the U.S. tommorow, I'd reckon you'ld see the impeachment of George Bush within the first few weeks after that riot started. Anyway my opinion on the Oz riot senario is that I believe that only good things can come out of it and nothing bad. You might have a diferent opinion to me on that there, but thats mine. You can decide how possible you think it might be for my best case violent riot senario for Oz to happen could be. You can also decide on wether or not its worth taking that type of violent riot protest action now and what have the common people got to lose from doing it too and is it worth it too. After all 2/3rds of world ppl could very possibly die if the worst case senario of henoch prophecies happens and this is reality that we are talking about here, isn't it? If it was up to me to decide on what action the rest of the Oz people should take to address this problem in our part of the world, I would decide for the Oz people to go show our Oz government how stupid and gulible the Oz common people are by going and torching some of the Oz bastard governments buildings, because this way theres no messing around with showing who's boss and also because it gives a good chance of clearing out in a relatively short space of time most of any corrupt politicians that might be operating within a government, which I regard as being better then for all the common people of a country to be doing nothing about it but just everyone waiting for someone to come out and do something about tackling their countries countries corrupt government problem and if someone does come out to do something it would surely be to only try to expose or impeach one of its obvious corrupt politicians (bush). That person could never come out and succeed in trying to impeach the bucket load of corrupt poloticians that are usually operating within most governments. So I figure thats pussyfooting around everyone waiting for some fearless good guy to come out (if he does) who will do something to takle their governments corruption problem by him wasting a lot of time trying to expose/impeach corrupt politicians one at a time in the courts. The corrupt politician thats gets taken out, his corrupt cohorts will soon enough replaced him with another corrupt politician to take his place and for this fearless good guy that is spending all this time exposing/impeaching one corrupt politician at a time in the courts, all I got to say is that he will never get passed %95 of the corrupt politicians always working back there within the government if his he can only tackle removing one corrupt politician at a time and over a long period of time too. I could be wrong with some of the things I've said there regarding this matter, but thats my opinion with how I would choose to tackle my governmental political corruption problem which one day could be the cause of my death as well as many others here in Australia thanks to our little turd of a Oz prime minister john howard who whenever his around with george bush on TV somewhere in the world can't get his friggin nose out of george bush's ass and likes showing everyone how he likes following bush whenever he wants to go. John Howard = worst Oz prime minister in Oz history. So kingman in response to wether or not I agree with what you said here about me thinking I'm jumping the gun and ready to destroy things too - "But I feel your jumping the gun so to speak. Your life isn't immediately in danger of being lost, and your ready to destroy things according to your statements. This is my response to your position." I say why wait for the last minute to give it your best shot to eliminate a probable future problem of yours when your best shot is ten times stronger for you if you use it now instead of at the last minute when the balls rolling and its so much harder for your best shot to stop it then? Putting everything into logical perspective i would choose to give it my best shot now instead of choosing to do nothing about it other then leaving it for others to do something to take care of that future problem for me, that is if anything or anyone does something about it. Hi Tjames, I like to give you my opinion on the matter you spoke to me about in this part of your post to me - "Hello Phil, I do agree with you, but to a point. Not only, but partly because in the Henok prophecies the rioters in France I believe were refered to as "irresponsible" (something to that effect) but primarily because participating in a riot just because everybody downtown was there torching and vandalizing to (in their minds) prove a point. I really don't think that this is an effective method for anything good. Like I said I agree with you that you must defend yourself and such, but, this is not defense. A stupid, thoughtless "meant to be pro-active" measure, however in reality only a destructive and violent method proving to be pointless and one that rarely works. Violence usually only begets more violence as it aslo causes more complications." My opinion is the france rioters were a bunch of stupid idiots who didn't have a clue about what type of action they should have taken to get what they wanted to acheive from their government out of them rioting in those riots because in my opinion only a bunch of stupid idiots would try to get their message across to their corrupt government by senselessly torching hundreds of innocent peoples cars. Whats its going to acheive by them doing that to innocent peoples cars if their government is not the owner of the cars as well as their government also being corrupt and therefore doesn't give a stuff about what happened to all those innocent peoples cars because they french government is a corrupt government and corrupt governments only give a stuff about themselves is why. And the evidence to support this is that if they weren't a corrupt government, then they wouldn't be wanting to try to bring in new policies and stuff which only benefits and favouritises just one class/sector of it french citizens (the well off) while disregarding if it causes another class/section of its french citizens (the poor n unemployed) to be worse off then what they already were. Their corrupt french politicians because they care more about their rich citizens then their poor citizens is why and is why some of that poor sector citizens started that rioting. Why go punishing some innocent guy for what some other guy did to you? The riots I'm talking about that I would only participate in is only where my intended culprits are the one who only recieve the dishing out of my opinion as well as the dishing out of the punishment I got on offer for them too. Anyway, I hope some people kind of see some more of the point of what I mean and trying to say here with all this. Phil Tjames Member Post Number: 117 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 12:29 pm:        Hello Phil, Good arguement!!! Lets look at it both ways. If you don't follow any thing else I write, follow this: ( Ultimately we need to find the most effective method to remove our govts. black hearts. Lets get started.) If it has come to the point where we have to destroy and burn our own cities possibly even killing senators or people who "get in the way" Lets be realistic. Not to be harsh because I see your point, but this INDICATES IF WE HAVE CHOSEN MEASURES THIS DRASTIC, THAN THE THRID WORLD WAR MOST LIKEY WOULD BE UPON US AT THIS POINT IN TIME! Making any agressive actions redundant and useless. We would need to be smart and make sure it is not past the point like 4 heads within 7 days. I wouldn't go riot if I knew this, it needs to be done NOW!! Think, WHAT SPECIFIC TARGETS SHOULD A GROUP FOCUS ON WHEN RIOTING, Obviously, this will have to be one spectacular and motivational riot for America to prevent a third world war (by getting our govt to pull out her troops). I DONT KNOW, MAYBE IT WILL!!! Honestly, I NOT THINK that method will work! We need to take our LEADERS OUT!!!!! Not "pussyfoot" with useless riots to prove a point to the f*****g media?! The media is the corrupt platform in which, our govt steamrolls her evil practices. They will downplay any real display of revolution. To be real, we need organization, planning and a timetable for effective removal, AND replacement for new people who KNOW and UNDERSTAND LOVE as well as action and reaction. Phil, I feel you totally, the Henok proh. talk about America breaking up into four factions, when you look at how divided America is a rebellion against the Govt. will be hard but not impossible. If people do not agree than a any agressive and violent measures will crumble and not to mention the military might against such a movement would be infultile, unless we devise an outline now. Like I said we should use all the available resources internet, phone, word of mouth, mail, might and of course spirit to convey our message to other people to gain a STRONG FOUNDATION FOR A POWERFULL AND SWIFT OPERATION WHERE THE PEOPLE IN POWER ARE 100% REMOVED FROM THEIR POWER. This is possible and I agree it needs done but to be realistic if you even want to think about such an undertaking you must make sure you have sound support. If I remember correctly only a few percent of the population only served as a re-modeling force in the 1800's and such. I agree, it's just getting minds to connect, I think opinions are swaying BIG TIME and it's up to people like us who know the real dangers to organize "truly effective" leader replacements. I cannot handle one more month with this Bush organization among many others. Our senate is deaf and blind and mute or look the other way and when the few who do speak overwhelmingly get shot down. I'm tired of being dooped. I'm a fighter for peace. (Actually Phil, new terrorist laws try you as a terrorist not a U.S. citizen, and they can put you away for life, or they can shoot you on site if it has gotten to the point of a full riot in a major city Which, America has never had in this weapons age, who knows what could happen to you, but those are the risks as you are well aware) I agree Phil Saalome Phil638 Member Post Number: 155 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 12:53 pm:        I forgot to add a little bit more after I said this sentence - "I say why wait for the last minute to give it your best shot to eliminate a probable future problem of yours when your best shot is ten times stronger for you if you use it now instead of at the last minute when the balls rolling and its so much harder for your best shot to stop it then?" For goodness sake, lets put everything into perspective here for a moment. What have the common people got to lose if their violent protest riots don't succeed? They get a kick up the ass or virtually nothing if you want to compare it to what the reality of what could very well be at stake here. 2/3rd world people dying if worst case prophecies senario happens. Simple logical terms means everyone in world got a very real probabilty of %70 of them dying. In short, taking everything into account and into perspective too, they've got virtually nothing to lose from taking that course of action. No matter what happens if they do take that course of action my opinion is that them rioting like that will definately only generate a lot of good things to come out in the future from then on for them. Theres is absolutely nothing bad that could possibly come out for them that could even remotely outweigh any goods that could come out for them and their country from them violently rioting like that against their corrupt government. Only good future things could come and any bads would be insignifigant when compared to the goods that came out from taking line of action. Now, lets put things into further perspective here to see if its worth them taking this line of action, what have they got to lose, whats possibly really at stake here, what good things can come out of it and is it all worth taking this line of action now which we can call giving the common peoples best shot. What they got to lose is not very bloody good at all and is a matter of a few years ahead for them in shorterm future too. What they got to lose is that %70 of all common peoples in the world could possibly lose their lives and all here should know that is what the reality of the situation could very well possibly be because we know the plejarens are limited in what they can and what they can't do to help us down here. So everyone could have a very lot to lose including all the people who do survive and who are left to live in whatevers left of this world after ww3 has past if it happens. So considering what could easily be really at stake here you'ld have to definately say thats it IS definately worth taking this line of action to avoid very real possible tragic future events for a lot of us. And we've already established that whoever decides to participate in taking this riot action in reality they have got really nothing to lose from doing it, especially when its compared to the bad that could come out of this as well as if this line of action now is what could possibly be the only thing that could stop that WW3 senario from happening. Who really knows? Now what possible good things can come out from common people in taking line of action and succeeding over their corrupt government thast governing them? 1. They might have very well just saved %70 of all their own lives. 2. Both common people and government now see each other in a new frame of light and then change their tune and act accordingly. The new light is the common people asserting to its government who's really the boss out them two and the raising of everyones awareness of who's getting paid there to look after who and should be viewed from then on as nothing more then just a paid worker doing a certain job. 3. Most governmental and politician corruption problems would definately have been reduced severely anywhere between %70 - %95, I'd say because after that riot the government won't dare to allow some greedy corrupt politician to be there if his corrupt and abusing his position to fill up his pockets with perks and money, because theres now a couple of very good incentives there for the government to consider for why the government shouldn't just stand there and allow for that corrupt action to continue. One incentive for the government not to allow that carry on when they find out corruption is whats going on is that theres nothing in it for the government from having some corrupt politician there filling up his pockets with money or perks by doing stuff like doing shifty corrupt business in his job with any corrupt Oz corporate organisations. First incentive is theres no benefit for the government from having a corrupt politician there filling up his own pockets and the other incentive is the government now knows how the public could react if they ever found out that any corruption with a politician was going on and also how the public could react if they believed they government knew about all along and choose to do nothing about it. The government knows the government will regardless in some way suffer in the end because of it as well as also that corrupt politician too, and the government still shoudn't have forgotten what type of action the public could easily decide to take against the government in regards to any corruption matters that the public thinks the government knew and allowed to carry on. The public learnt a very valuable good lesson from that first riot happening and that is the public just realised and learnt who's really the boss out of who between the two and the public also learnt what to do when the other one starts to think their boss again and they start trying to manipulate, control and abuse for the benefit of corrupt political shifty besiness like it always used to be in the old times. The real boss between the two is one that violently protests and riots whenever their extremely unhappy about corrupt shifty political besiness going on with the other, and if that situation ever arose and a lot of very poor or unemployed common people weren't happy at all about it, there should be no shortages of any participates wanting to jion in a rioting for a very good important cause. In short, my opinion is that there is no comparision between which will come out far ahead on top between any goods and any bads that could come out if the public took line of actions with this very important government political corruption problem. The only possible thing that I could think of that could possibly come out ahead of the other here is all GOOD and no bad and the GOOD to my culculations comes out far and away outweighing any bads, which I still can't think of any bad coming out too. The money loss and damage of torching of a few government buildings and stuff is no problem whatsoever to anyone or to the general public when you compare it to yearly storm damages, floods and fire damages and so on. I see no bads, only GOODS coming out. Now putting everything into perspective here again, what is it that could really be at stake here and is it worth taking this line protest riot action to eliminate any future possible very bads from happening to us? Whats the worst thing that could happen to us all in the very near future and whats the worst thing that could happen to the public or anyone participating in a an angry governmental aimed riot. Most important of all is could an very angry public governmental, politician and some their crumby buildings aimed riot NOW possibly work out to some or even all of the extent of the best case senario I mentioned before if this line of action was taken. This is my opinion on what I think is what action is the best possible action that I think that people of just about any nation in the world should take to address their political corruption which if left to continue to carry on as they have always been left to carry on could in the end lead some or even all of us into this apocalyptic WW3 where %70 of us won't see it through? I already gave my opinion regarding what I think was the best possible action that any common people in any part of the world should take regarding this all important to all of matters - "I say why wait for the last minute to give it your best shot to eliminate a probable future problem of yours and is your life, when your best shot is ten times stronger for you if you use it now instead of if you wait and use it at the last minute when the balls well and truly bloody rolling and everything is so much more bloody harder to have a hope of stopping including your best shot too?" Why leave your very major future problem to someone else to take care of it for you when you don't even know them or know if their doing anything about it other then the same thing as you which is leaving your very possible future major problem to someone else to take care of? Theres the possibility that nothing or no-one is going to come to fix your very major future problem because theres the possibilty that whats needed to fix your problem was mentioned in this post and if you think logically about the possibilty of that method ever working or even wonder about that being one of the only few things around that could work in succeeding to address and fix your very major possible future bloody problem and if that method succeeds in fixing that very major possible future bloody problem of yours, then in the process it also has the benefit of fixing all your other related problems including also fixing that very major bloody governmental politician problem of yours too. You might be starting to think the same thing as the owner of this post which why I am taking this very major bloody risk with my very major possible bloody future problem or you could be thinking less intelligently then this owner person is which is thinking, nah I think I'll just leave my very major possible future bloody problem in the safe compentent hands of someone else to take care of for you, who you don't even know or know wether their even bloody doing anything about yours and everyone else's very major possible future bloody problem? How smart are you in how your dealing with your very major possible future bloody problem? I carried and waffled on and said all this only because I think its very important issue and problem is all. ps, sorry for rushing my above post in and making all them grammer and somantic mistakes there. phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 156 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 02:57 pm:        The other thing I forgot to say is that out of the people who know about meir info and know about this very real possible future WW3 problem, according to what I've read on here as well as other forum and websites, I noticed that there are a lot of people around who are under the impression and are thinking that one of the best things that could happen or the only thing which could happen which would make the world avoid this WW3 problem is george bush getting impeached. So I figure that a lot of them who know about this WW3 problem are sitting out there with the notion that this is what will eliminate that WW3 problem for them and are eagerly just waiting for this to happen. I really wouldn't know if bush getting impeached would eliminate this WW3. But my personal opinion is, no way know known do I believe for a minute that this is what will eliminate this WW3 problem because i believe what about ALL the other corrupt politicians, senators, congress people and illuminati's and whatever else you want to call them too that are always operating in every U.S. administration thats ever been in power. Do I think that even if bush was taken impeached and taken out of office, do I still think that all the other corrupt government people still in U.S. administration and office are capable of leading, taking and direction the U.S. to do whatever it has to do to be responsible for leading the U.S. on the route to them entering and starting WW3 wars and fulfilling the worst case senerio of WW3 prophecies? My opinion is that I ABSOLUTELY DO BELIEVE that can all still happen whether or not bush is still there or not. Which leads me to say what I wanted to say here. If corrupt meglomaniacal governments of lots of nations are the ones who are going to be responsible for starting WW3 if it ever happens, how is anyone ever going to try to stop these governments from trying and wanting to start these wars by exposing or impeaching one of its politicians in a government when theres theres all the other corrupt cohorts politicians still there in office in whatever nation you want it to be? All the ones left behind are all corrupt cohort ones to whoever got impeached and as such I'm sure they all still know with whats going on around there and know with what things, intentions and directiuons their nation had planned or would like to go and had in mind what to do in their future, and I'm sure someone else could take the reigns over or still lead that nation to do the same thing to do with whatever it wanted to do as when the corrupt politician that got impeached was taken out. If anyones got any ideas of how to weed out most of a nations corrupt politicians or know of way how the people of a nation could do so that they are ones who can have the say with what they want their country to do on important issues like wanting to enter any wars, I'd be very happy to hear any. I'm sure most people know exactly what I'm getting here in this post with all that, so I don't think theres much need to continue saying anything much further. phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 157 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 08:45 pm:        SOME USELESS DRIBBLE IS ALL THAT IS WRITTEN HERE THAT EVERYONE SHOULD EASILY ALREADY KNOW, BUT ONLY POSTED HERE FOR THE BENEFIT OF SOME PEOPLE WHO FOR SOME REASON EITHER DON"T KNOW OR HAVE EITHER SIMPLY FORGOTON OR SIMPLY DON"T KNOW COZ THEY ARE FOOL. IT HAS TO DO WITH WHO A GOVERNMENT REALLY IS, AND WHO YOU REALLY ARE, AND WHERE YOU REALLY AND RIGHTFULLY STAND AGAINST ANY GOVERNMENT YOU CARE TO STAND YOURSELF AGAINST!! I'd like to put one thing into complete and utter perspective here once and for all for the benefit of whoever is going to read these post so hopefully they got their priorities and everything else into perspective and in the correct order here, so I won't fell have to feel the need to have to say this again is all. I'm not going to discuss with anyone wether or not mine are in the correct order. All I'm going to do is say what I believe is the true correct order is, is all. Who are the owners of any country out of the two below? - A group of common people in a country that have been appointed to a position called government and getting paid to do absolutely nothing else then to do a job in that country for the common people of that country and the common people of that country are ones that are paying them a very fat wage because the job they have to do is a much trusted job for the common people? OR ARE THE OWNERS of a country - The people who paying that government who are nothing more then a group of common people that have been appointed by the common people of that country for them to do nothing more or less then to do a job and for them to be there the job requires that they MUST do a much trusted job and nothing ele for the common people of that country who are the ones paying them to do that job? I believe the rightful owners of that country can never be past, present or future any other then the masses of common people of that country who are paying the tiny group of other common people in that country to do nothing other then to do a job for the masses of the common people in that country who are paying them to do nothing other then to do a job. So I say the owner of any country is quiet plainly and obviously be none other then common people who are paying the government to do a job and never could it ever be the government. So the owner is one thing but who's makes the laws and is also doing the controlling as well as also telling everyone in a country what they can and what they can't do and where has that brought any typical country too? For some past time now this tiny group of people called the government that were appointed to do nothing other then to do a job for the common people of that country has somehow now got the crazy idea in their heads that they are the owners of that country and as such have forgotten or didn't care what their well paid trusted job involved them to be doing for the common people who are paying them. Not only that but they think that they are now also the owners of the common people in that country too who were paying them to do nothing other then to do job. And now this government has gotton itself to the stage where it commands itself however it likes over anything and everything thats in that country, including commanding itself over all of the common people. This government is now abusing its job in every shape, manner and form which the common people had appointed them to do as well as abusing the common people too in every manner of form too because this government totally corrupt. This situation is now at the stage where the government makes all the laws and tells all the common people in that country what they can't and what they can do, and it also says what punishment must be to any of the common people that breaks the laws of that country that this corrupt government created. Worse is that lots of people in this government are now very badly always breaking the laws of their job and the laws of that country as well which is always illegaly filling their pockets with money that they can any which way find and steal from all the common people in that very well paid and trusted job that the common people put them for to do. They all know who amonst themselves are the corrupt ones and stealing, but the ones that know who the corrupt ones are amonst themsleves and doing the stealing, they all don't ever go exposing or reporting them to the authorities like they should be doing, because they're helping each other out to do the stealing from the poor and much less paid common people. The worst thing our all now is that a lot of these countries that these corrrupt and meglomaniacal government people belong to and have got control over and are running are soon about to take their country that their governing into wars with other countries and lots of us common poeple could lose our lives, because they are corrrupt and meglomaniacal government people and they are running our countries. ALL THESE CORRUPT GOVERNMENT PEOPLE THAT ARE RUNNING ANY COUNTRY YOU WANT TO BE IN MIGHT VERY WELL BE TAKING US ALL FOR A BLOODY RIDE IN DOOMSDAY!!! This government that is in my country that is supposed to be there running it lawfully is always breaking very serious laws within in my country and their called crimes that criminals committ, and most of these crimes that are always being committed by these criminals, should in my country require by law for lots of these corrupt government politicians who are running my country, for them to spend some very lengthy times in jail, and is where they below and running my country. AND THE REASON WHY ALL THIS CRIME IS HAPPENING IN ALL OF OUR COUNTRIES IS THE SAME THE REASON WHY WE COULD ALL END UP SOON MEETING UP WITH EACH OTHER ONE DAY SOON FOR THAT VERY SWEET AND FRIENDLY HOLY BLOODY F######## MARY GET TOGETHER DOOMSDAY RIDE. tHE REASON WHY WE ALL HAVE ALWAYS BEEN LIVING IN MISERY IN OUR COUNTRIES WHICH WE GOD DAM BLOODY WELL OWN IS THE SAME REASON WHY WE COULD ALL BE SEEING EACH OTHER SOON ON THAT RIDE WITH SWEET HOLY BLOODY F######## MARY!!! THE REASON IS BECAUSE WE ALL GOT NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF GREEDY LOW LIFE F######### CRIMINALS IN CHARGE OF RUNNING ALL OF OUR COUNTRIES!!!!! BTW - have you got any time problem that you really really want to be rid of? Well then, you work it out because its your problem. How smart are you in how your dealing with your very major possible future bloody problem? USELESS DRIBBLE POST WRITER IS A FOOL Consolato Member Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 03:35 pm:        i just like to say something in regards to this comment that phil saud here - "THE REASON IS BECAUSE WE ALL GOT NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF GREEDY LOW LIFE F######### CRIMINALS IN CHARGE OF RUNNING ALL OF OUR COUNTRIES!!!!!" when i first read it i thought it was one of the funiest things i've ever read and then started laughing my head off and kept on laughing my head off for about a minute until something about that comment he said really sunk into to me and I stopped laughing about it and then after it sunk I didn't even find that comment funny anymore. What sunk in was two things - so ture, so true. world war 3 Con Consolato Member Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 03:47 pm:        I forget to say that I also think that is one of the best post that I've ever read at this forum too. 10 points Con Phil638 Member Post Number: 158 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 02:40 am:        Every government in the world now believes they own their country as well as the people in it too and as such they now command over both in everything they do, from top to bottom. And nowhere is this more evident then it was in the last world wars, when in times when it wasn't self defence, they ordered their country to go to war without even asking for consent from the owners who own that country who are the common people and who also were the people who had to go fight and die in those wars too!!!! Like the plejarens said, we've given our power to our governments and the only way to get it back is to take it back by FORCE. To anyone thinking they might have meant spiritual force there, I say this worldwide government meglomaniac corruption problem which is going to be the sole cause of this world war 3 problem IS NOT A SPIRITUAL RELATED PROBLEM!!! And logical common sense tells you that the closer it gets, the harder it is going to be to stop and why the plejarens are here and informing us of this by prophecies hoping we will act now on avoiding this future problem of ours because they have made it quite clear to us that they have no intentions of stopping us if thats what we all want to do!! Did they not?? BTW - have you got any time problem that you really really want to be rid of? Well then, you work it out because its your problem. How smart are you with how your dealing with your very major possible future bloody problem? another logical common sense useless dribble post. writer is fool . Eric_drouin Member Post Number: 103 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 07:29 pm:        Hi Consolato Thanks for the link on Bush ! The relations between numerology, Nostradamus predictions, and G.W.Bush are astonishing (Mabus = gwbush!!) It correlates predictions and other letters by Billy on this "megalomaniac infernally stupid" individual . He alone could well ignite a major armed conflict (like 2 before him: Napoleon and Hitler ). Who else has launched 2 successive aggressive invasions since 1945 and is planning for 2 more (Syria and Iran)? Think about it. Newinitiation Member Post Number: 51 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 09:17 pm:        Dear phil638 May the spirit within you help you to see what you aren't able to see for yourself now. May the creational forces belying everything in existence become more apparent sometime in the future for which you cannot yet see with your seeing eyes, let that moment be a testament to the power of creation for as soon as you see the light, which you will some day, the ground in which your feet stands, the air that you breathe and the radiant sunlight will never appear the same again. Creation knows no vindictiveness, revenge, hatred and punishment for it's love is eternal, unconditional, universal and everlasting. Wake up young man! don't throw the baby with the bathwater. For whats its worth you have removed all doubts to your level of ignorance for all to see. If there are people who agree with what you've written, you are right insofar as what your limited mind in your particular level of evolution sees that others also see to some extent, but don't be the blind leading the blind. If we are striving for a better world, then lets make peace, harmony, love and freedom be the guiding forces in our lives and not violence. If the forces for which the plejarens have given as an alternative to solving our problems, lets think twice about what the term force truly means without jumping into conclusion. FORCE does not always mean naked violence, act of destruction, organised or chaotic rioting, vandalism, hooliganism etc Whatever you write from now on phil638 will be judged according to the light in which you have created for others to judge you by. So Jmmanuel said 'judge not falsely lest you be falsely judged' Know this "Through these laws and directives, which represent Creation, humankind in its irrationality will bring cruel judgement upon itself"(TJ25:47), then so it shall be. Phil638 free yourself from the enslaving power of false doctrines, evil passions, addictions, negative emotions, imagined needs and attachments. Think about this "thousands of lights will guide humans along their path, provided they observe and follow them." (TJ32:31) If you cannot be helped then don't stop others from their path. peace be with you Tjames Member Post Number: 118 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 11:46 pm:        Hello Newinitiation, Nice to meet you, I'm not sure if I've spoken to you before? Anyway, I wanted to ask you who you were refering to when you stated: "If there are people who agree with what you've written, you are right insofar as what your limited mind in your particular level of evolution sees that others also see to some extent, but don't be the blind leading the blind." I was curious if you were referring to me as "a blind"? Regardless, your opinion is yours as are your reasons for judgment, which, I hope are done out of care. I was interested in what phil had to say because he seems to get alot of "heat" from alot of people throughout most of his posts. My intentions were to understand what he was trying to say without having to defend himself. Additionally, I am genuinely interested in helping prevent a thrid world war by using all disposable methods at hand as I do not simply think one "brut force" will do, however, it may be necessary at some point in time. At some point, but not without loving guidance and wise leadership behind any kind of minor to major (necessary) physical forcefulness, as this is subjective. Your quotes from the Talmud are of course phrases of advice for general situations. Perhaps we could take this the next step and design a plan where 2/3 plant, animal, and human life can be salvaged to avert the lowest misery. I was "brainstorming" with phil, and although I agree that force, raw force, with nothing else in this scenario is NOT the answer, far from it. I would however, be interested in advice as to speed up the progress and the likelihood of all or a partial prevention of this catostrophe. The way I see it is us who are in the position among others who know themselves to stand up and speak out or do what it is you have the ability to. Sorry to take up too much space, but I am convinced of the humans natural ability to brainstorm through its "creative imaginative abilites" as Wayne Dyer puts it "When you change the way you look at things, the things your looking at change" -Thoughtful, Original or just plain useful brainstorm ideas welcome... Saalome, Tim Phil638 Member Post Number: 159 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 07:21 pm:        Hi Newinitiation, I would very much like to hear on what your opinion is on what you think would be the best ways to deal with overting this world war 3 problem that has been propheciesed by the plejarens and henoch prophecies to cause around 4 billion of us to die? In simple terms, that means that everyone has a %67 chance that they will die. When you consider that africa (1 billion people) and most of south america won't probably be involved in world war 3 if it happens, you then start to realise those odds really don't apply to all those people living in those two continents and really means that 4 billion death doll comes out of the rest of the world, which really raises that %67 odd chance of anyone dying to a much higher percentage chance, when you look at it for what it is and see that percentage figure applying really only to all the people outside living outside of those two continents. The other thing I would like to know is what your opinion is on you think the plejarens meant by when they said, "we've given our power to our governments and the only way to get it back is to take it back by FORCE", as well as what you also think they might have meant by that too? What type of force do they mean and what are they refferring it to do or to avoid??? I really wouldn't know if my forcefull rioting opinion would work regarding as a way to quickly remove most of the corruption and meglomaniacal people within a government for the beneift of avoiding world war 3 from happenning. But my personal opinion is, that government corruption meglomaniac problem is the common people's problem and I reckon something like that violent rioting action aimed at the governments is what I believe is the common people's best shot, and I believe that if were done today that it would have a %100 success chance that it would work and win. I don't believe for momment that the plejarens comment "we've given our power to our governments and the only way to get it back is to take it back by FORCE", had anything to do with getting it back by force through any lawcourts or lawfull system either. And lets not ever forget what the reality of the situation is of whats really at stake here too - 4 billion dead and a world where life can barely exist for whoever don't die. And the plejarens certainly wouldn't be here if they didn't believe that it wasn't going to happen too. You might think my violent rioting action is a bit overboard in this situation, but thats your opinion and not mine. Our corruption government problem is about to soon be putting all of our lives in danger and I also remember the plejarens and billy both saying once that you (common people) have every right to defend yourself when your life is in danger. Who cares about what a few thousands degenerate,corrupt and meglomaniac lives of our government criminal people are worth in comparision to what the lives of 4 billion good common people throughout the world are worth, as well as the damage to the planet itself too. And they should always be considered as being %100 to blame for bringing it amongst themselves for threatening the lives of so many people for the sake of their greedy, selfish, corrupt, meglomaniac and criminal nature too. I personally believe that my priorities are %100 in the correct order here and where they should be too. phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 161 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 04:11 pm:        On rereading some of my past posts over the past couple of pages in this thread here I seem to think like i was getting a bit carried away with myself with all this and kind of went overboard a bit. If any think I was being too adamant with voicing my opinion on this issue or think that I seemed like I was pushing my views a bit too much onto other people regarding this topic here, I'd like to apologize to those people for me getting carried away with myself over me pushing this issue here to others. I guess I was just getting overworried about my future is all. I don't really want to take anything back much that I previously said here in relation to this issue, I just regretted sounding so adamant here to others is all like as if my opinion was the only correct method there could possibly be in how to deal with this issue. Anyway if I did go a bit overboard here, I hope that some people see that it was only ever due to worry is all. thanks for understanding, phil Newinitiation Member Post Number: 53 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 09:11 pm:        dear phil638 After all that we've been through on this forum through various posts written by you, myself and others I cannot help but question to myself what truly is being spiritual and living in spiritualness. The stark reality just hit me with so much barreness and utter despair that i've become more confused and lost where everything around me feels like it has lost it's form and meaning. The danger with judging others as I have done lies in the fact that you are perceived as ursurping yourself above others as morally righteous and superior and the fact that the reality about judging others has an element in whatever degree of hypocracy, so with this in mind I cannot dispel the fact that in my judgement of myself which I need to always do before I judge others, I come away thinking how limited in consciousness, knowledge, wisdom, understanding, love and honesty I was. The faint glimer of whatever I can muster as will, to carry on in the pursuit of spirituality however hard the undertaking is, in light of other easier paths is often quite daunting. Truly it's not easy, there are just too many external and internal forces that I must come to grips with that tears me this and that way. Whatever question you've asked me phil638 I really cannot do justice, for whatever answer I give you it'll be like a tiny drop in the vast ocean, The truth and knowledge pertaining to existence is so overwhelmingly incomprehensive and so broad for my tiny understanding. I know you meant well in your frustrations you expressed out of your heart, there is no magic bullet to the problems we are trying to address. 'For whom the bell tolls but for thee',remember this verse, our time will come sooner or later. Sometimes what cannot be comprehended and changed, I guess we will have to accept humbly but not to strive for a better world with our own efforts would be judged a criminal neglect. In answering your questions anyway on an idea to address the problems of corruption, I think it has to be done indirectly. As has been done by GHANDI, if we organise most of the FIGU members and other passively related sympathisers to collectively through consensus and co-operation go on an internationally joint hunger strike upon notifying our collective intentions to the various media outlets about the threat of WW3, the issue of overpopulation, environmental destruction and other imminent threat to our survival, we may just get enough exposure to at least bring to light on an international level all these problems and the existence of FIGU and the information therein. People by nature are curious although their attention span is very limited, the more we let people know, I guess the more people will support FIGU and the peace meditation, but more importantly to live their lives with love, understanding, compassion, awareness, peace, harmony, co-operation, kindness, generosity etc. which will have a follow on effect, thus affecting many more people positively. I cannot claim that this is the ultimate solution as you may well know. It'll get too long to explain to you in minute details of the why's, the how's, the what's, the when's, the who's etc but if you read between the lines and fill in the blanks, you'll know what I am getting at. It's been a good learning experience nontheless. peace be with you Phil638 Member Post Number: 162 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 10:13 pm:        well I didn't notice reading anything in the prophecies about any of the nations of africa or any of the nations of south america being involved in the world war 3 if it happens, so I figure those 1.5 billion or so people that are living in those two continents should be ok with their lives there if world war 3 happens. Also another thing which further backs this suggestion up that they'll both be ok, is how those two continents are both situated in the southern hemisphere part of the world, because of how the henoch prophecies regarding world war 3 propheciesed that the whole northern hemisphere continents will be unable to be inhabited. I fear the chances and odds of anyone dying who's living outside of those two continents if world war 3 happens. Somewhere above %85 I guess. Anyway thats what I was really getting myself mainly all worried and carried away with all about here, was the fear and uncertainty of my future. I can only say that I surely do hope that our good friends the plejarens step in and do something to help us out to overt this major catastrophry from happening if thats where we're heading. Anyway I want to apologise to all other forum members here again for how I was somewhat forcing my opinion and views concerning this issue onto other people in this thread as well as for also sounding like as if my method was like as if it was the best and only correct method which could defeat this WW3 problem too. The truth is I don't know what is the best method with overting this WW3 problem. So on that, I like to say once again how I sincerely like to take back all of that cocky attitude of mine as well as also that singleminded views and remarks I had conducted myself with over the past couple of pages of this section thread here. phil Tjames Member Post Number: 122 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 10:55 pm:        Hi Phil, There's always some good out of a mistake. For instance, you may be a little more concious about how you word things and such. As adamant as you sounded you got me thinking about prevention and perhaps affecting me by me thinking more about how I affect people in order to positively affect people through interaction or influence. You also got me thinking about this issue, and I will say again that I do not agree with the use of complete force. I wonder if Newinition is interested in sharing some of his/her idea's? I have my opinions on what we should do, but I think we all agree at least on this point. Something needs done, now! You were right about that phil, just maybe jumping the gun to a solution that hasn't been figured through completely. I am hoping to do this so I can at-least start figuring out some preliminary blueprints for some kind of action. I posted a question to Billy asking him a similar question, check it out. Phil adamant is probably not good, but your level of concern is somewhere near where it should be (as far as i'm concerned). I honestly don't think alot of people have absorbed what a loss of 2/3 of the worlds people, most the resources, un-breathable air, and environment devastated actually means. People do not comprehend what is actually means to spend 888 days with nothing but festering blisters, gene mutations and trade winds contaminated with radioactive waste! Politiacally speaking this is a issue not only too hot to touch for the press, (that of the Meier Contacts) primarily due to its implications, but here on the Forum too. The issue is a HOT HOT HOT topic because it insinuates deep reflection and requires good analyzing skills to see the issue accurately. I'm not saying we have the solutions phil, we might, but people have to understand that this is a time in our Nation(s)for huge unrest. We are doing the opposite, resting. It calls for unrest and we cannot let these important issues fizzle out. Just because someone tells you so simmer down, insinuates that your cooking too hot not that your recipie is bad! Phil, lets get cooking, and we'll keep the heat at a economical level. There are many ways to help out on this planet and social unrest does not have to be the only one. However, if it's done, IT NEEDS TO BE DONE RIGHT. I'm working at it here. Can't loose focus of the big pic. Saalome, Tim Kingman Member Post Number: 63 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 02:26 am:        Again I say if the workers of the world together refuse to work one day in a unified order of defiance, the worlds governments would quickly adopt a change to the current methods used. It's not unfathomable to project this happening. With the growth of the internet it is fully conceivable being done by a grassroots attempt. a friend in america Shawn Lonnie Member Post Number: 93 Registered: 12-1999 Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 02:30 am:        Hi Phil, I could understand your frustration even before you got carried away. We all feel this way. Billy, the Plejaren and all of us want these corrupt people out of positions of power. There is no disagreement here. But the problem is, replacing them in such a way that the process itself doesn't backfire on us. Considering what I have heard from Billy, as well as others who have studied this situation seriously, anything we do to bring about change must start with ouirselves from within, just like if we were fighting a cancer. I see it as a very difficult challenge that must begin with us in such a way that we can bring about an entirely new system where decent, honest people can attain positions of power legally. My observation. Salome, Lonnie Morton Phil638 Member Post Number: 163 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 11:51 am:        Hi Newinitiation, sorry for being a bit forcefull towards you with my opinion and views in the past few pages concerning this matter. That won't happen again. anyway, in regards to this comment you said to me here - "In answering your questions anyway on an idea to address the problems of corruption, I think it has to be done indirectly. As has been done by GHANDI, if we organise most of the FIGU members and other passively related sympathisers to collectively through consensus and co-operation go on an internationally joint hunger strike upon notifying our collective intentions to the various media outlets about the threat of WW3, the issue of overpopulation, environmental destruction and other imminent threat to our survival, we may just get enough exposure to at least bring to light on an international level all these problems and the existence of FIGU and the information therein." I'm only guessing, but judging by the ammount of forum posters here at this forum as well as adding some more people on top from figu website, I don't think your going to have enough people to make even a sufficent number of people to go on that internationally joint hunger strike to make much of an impact to the world media outlets. Even if most people in figu did go on that hunger strike, I honestly don't think there'ld even be close to sufficent number of people doing it to make any media outlet to listen. You also can't use the threat of world war 3 as the reason in the hunger strike campaign because most media outlets wouldn't believe that its even true as well as they would also never do a story on the meier ufo contacts to publicize the henoch prophecies about world war 3 to the public too. Also your probably aware that any corrupt government out there couldn't care less about a small number of figu members and followers going out on a hunger strike, or anyone else for that matter too, because of how corrupt governments are all the same in how they all care only about themselves. Hi Tjames, I see some of the good points you brought up there and thanks for your sincere and honest feedback there too, I appreciate it. Hi kingman, I see the good point your trying to make there and I could also see that method possibly working too. The only problem that I can see there is what is the motive going to be there to get close to even getting the minimum required number of people together in them being interested in wanting to take that type of strike action against their government, that you had spoken of there? What is the motive going to be to people for them to want to do that, so you can get the minimim required number of interested common people together to take that strike action so they can try to fix their government corruption problem? And if it is to try to overt world war 3 from happening, then this must happen within the next couple of years before world war 3 fully breaks out too? How is this also going to happen if the rest of the world doesn't know what we know about the billy meier ufo contacts and world war 3 prophecies? I don't think trying to get people to want to take this type of action soon against their government is possible to acheive within the timeframe thats given before WW3 breaks out, because as you know the world's mainstream media is never going to publicize anything or anytime soon anything about the billy meier ufo contact material for the benefit of letting people know about the henoch WW3 prophecies too as means of using the WW3 prophecies as the motive of getting enough people together who would want to do that type of strike action. However, the only place in the world where I can see a possibly of people not needing to know about the WW3 prophecies as a motive for them wanting to take this type of strike action as a means of doing something about addressing their government corruption problem, is only in the U.S. because of how theres quite a few people who are aware or who are now becoming more aware of the Bush adminstrations involvement in the 9/11 attacks. I think that if theres enough people who know about this matter, that there might be the possibilty of enough people wanting to get together in the U.S. who might want to take some sort of action as a means of addressing their corrupt government problem. I surely hope that it does happen in the U.S. because I would very much like to see this happen to bush. However getting back to the WW3 issue, I believe to have any hope of definitely overting the world war 3 problem, I think that unfortunetly that it also has to happen like that in most other countries of the world too, because it is a world war, and as well as being a world related problem, it also has to happen within the timeframe thats given before world war 3 does fully break out too. Hi Lonnie, the cause of what was the most of my frustration, was not about my frustration in getting these corrupt people out of governments, but the ammount of frustration and how much concern I had about my future survival prospects over this world war 3 problem. I wil try to see this problem the same as you say you do there and I wil try to see it as just being a very difficult challenge. (what really scares me is how theres a timeframe on it and also how my life could be whats at stake too) phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 164 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 01:26 pm:        Hi Newinitiation, I forogt to say something else in my previous message to you before regarding methods on how to deal with this government corruption in the hope of overting this world war 3 problem. I noticed that quite a few times in other posts of yours to me you have regularly implied that instead of using my method to deal with problem which was using violence to fight violence, that it would be better if I turned to using the laws and commendments of creation and also using the peace meditation too to address this government corruption and world war 3 problem, and then you often went on to say that we should be all be doing this too. In your last post to me you said this to me here which was mainly all in reference in methods on how to deal with this government corruption problem - "I guess the more people will support FIGU and the peace meditation, but more importantly to live their lives with love, understanding, compassion, awareness, peace, harmony, co-operation, kindness, generosity etc. which will have a follow on effect, thus affecting many more people positively." I'm not sure if you noticed in all the times at the start of this topic of discussion in this thread here, where I had said a few times to you that this government corruption problem is not a spiritual related problem? I'm not trying to suggest that I'm right here or suggest that you are wrong either. I'm just going to post something to try to help to enlighten you with this matter regarding the world government corruption problem is all. This is a question that a forum member recently posted in to ask billy in the billy meier answered questions section which is in regards to what I'm talking to you about in this post regarding your peace meditation opinion and my opinion that this government corruption problem is not a spiritual related problem - --------------------------- Dear Billy, I hope you are well. I am wondering about the effects of the peace meditation. If there are 3.5 billion Extraterrestrials + 4000 or so Earthlings doing the peace meditation and that is not enough to stop a third world war, how many more participants would it take to stop the war? Thank you! Salome, Rita Answer Even 100 billion persons are not enough if there are people who don’t want to make peace, but prefer quarrel and war. Peace meditation slightly influences a vibration. It is no coercion. ---------------------------- phil Newinitiation Member Post Number: 55 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 09:40 pm:        dear Tjames Hi there, sorry for the late response. To put to rest in your mind as to what I was refering to in your question, it's really redundant to speak of it right now other than as is the case with each and everyone of us in this forum and elsewhere, like an endless stream flowing down the river, always in motion, moving hither tither, bumping here and there along it's journey, likewise our mind and evolution seems to run it's naturally creation given course that reflect the way nature is and so by saying this, I was refering to certain views held by people that is not permanent but in the meantime may have an inflaming and chain reactive effect on others who share the same views which I had disagreed with. As you know as we continue our journey of evolution whether we are aware of the truth or not, who and what we were last year or 10 years ago seize to be and we are different people today, likewise we will be different again in the future if you know what I mean. So you see the temporaneous nature of each moment that makes up life and also our very nature as well. It is also with our views we hold now or the truth we think we knew but becomes redundant once more knowledge and wisdom is acquired. I think we may have been writing our post around about the same time which reflect similar time frame that our post has been posted, so you may have missed my post to phil638 which in it I gave what I think would be one way that we can somehow influence the course of future events in curtailing the prophecised WW3. Please let me know of your views and feedback, you never know what could eventuate out of the seed that we could sow from this. peace be with you Phil638 Member Post Number: 166 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 10:53 pm:        Originally posted by newinvitation - "In answering your questions anyway on an idea to address the problems of corruption, I think it has to be done indirectly. As has been done by GHANDI, if we organise most of the FIGU members and other passively related sympathisers to collectively through consensus and co-operation go on an internationally joint hunger strike upon notifying our collective intentions to the various media outlets about the threat of WW3, the issue of overpopulation, environmental destruction and other imminent threat to our survival, we may just get enough exposure to at least bring to light on an international level all these problems and the existence of FIGU and the information therein." Originally posted by newinvitation - "I think we may have been writing our post around about the same time which reflect similar time frame that our post has been posted, so you may have missed my post to phil638 which in it I gave what I think would be one way that we can somehow influence the course of future events in curtailing the prophecised WW3. Please let me know of your views and feedback, you never know what could eventuate out of the seed that we could sow from this." Sorry but I don't believe that action has got any sort of hope of ever succeeding to address this problem as in the action as you had said that it would there. I believe that no way known are the corrupt world government powers (who control all mainstream media outlets) would ever even dream of informing the world public of the greatest event and secret in the history of the world, for the sake of saving the lives of a few thousand people who are on a hunger strike. Especially when these corrupt government powers really couldn't care less that there are hundreds of millions of people starving to death in other parts of the world. My own personally opinion is that I believe that if these corrupt government world powers had the chance to secretly get away with putting all those kind of people (us-figu)who went on that hunger strike to death, that they most certainly would choose that to happen to all those people because they see all those type of people as being their enemy is why. phil Tjames Member Post Number: 124 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 11:21 pm:        Hello Newinitiation, Life is like a stream. However, we are humans and are capable of swimming to the shore, turning our speed boats or canoes around and walking back up stream to a desired destination. I find it silly to hear an excuse like oh "i said it in the moment" or "it only meant something then" as it might have. One thing I do honor about veterans on this forum as well as many philosophers of our age is that things we say now should be just as true tommorrow. Don't get me wrong here I know the context you used this in, like learning new things that we didn't know yesterday affect us in hinesight. I'm talking about saying things that have a lasting affect; because they're true, not because they were in the passion of the moment. I'm not giving a lesson and please don't be turned off, I just find it nice being able to quote someone's words and having them go "I said that because..." or this meant... I am intersted in hearing some ideas that you had about the prevention of a certain catasprophe, by whatever means. Next week i'm meeting with a couple guys for I think 5+ person peace mediation (my first more than 2 meditatoin!!) If enough people encorporate the peace mediation into every other week of their lives, we will make a gigantic difference! We must also be the best we can be, giving correct examples of living as I assume, this is the method you suggest we should follow compared a more aggressive approach. Also something that Phil and I had mentioned, is the urgency of this task. The sooner we start figuring out our creative idea's, the sooner we can carve out the dominating and monetary sybols that feed war and greed to shape new adventerous, scientific space faring, ecologically sound, peaceful society... As it starts with a dream and a vision What's yours? Salome, Tim Kingman Member Post Number: 65 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 05:18 am:        Can anyone help me with a list that includes all the biggest controlling organizations with a worldwide agenda. I've only thought about this since reading the last 10 or so posts on this thread. Here's what I quickly came up with: *Roman Catholic Church(includes Religious Right in US) *Rothchilds Family(includes Zionists and Israeli's secret government) *Secret US Government( Black ops and such) *Peoples Republic of China *Bilderbergers *United Nations *World Health Organization *The World Bank There's plenty more. But if you think about it the oldest, best organized and wealthiest group would be the Roman Catholic Church. Isn't there a quote" all roads lead to Rome". I believe most of our ill's on this planet can be sourced back to the church. a friend in america Shawn Norm Member Post Number: 743 Registered: 02-2000 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 08:42 am:        You do know that Stevens books do contain errors? So don't go by every word. A lot of what is conveyed is the humans illogical choices. Anti- Logos = Anti-Logic. Hi Billy, in a follow-up question to my last question on the New World Order, I need to ask you what the following meant, as it relates to a secret and not so secret World Government? If there is no New World Order then what were these statements about? During the 232nd contact of November 17th 1989: Ptaah: "we have refrained from contacts with Americans, and will do so forever, unless it should happen that this nation and its government and secret government". Later in that same contact its states "those who are guided by religious sects or governments with plans aiming at world dominance, as is the case also with certain terrestrial organizations that strive for world dominance." In the book AN OPEN WORD verse 1369 it states the following. "During the New Age of the future 20th and 21st centuries the destructive beast bearing the number 666 would become active, that is, religious cults, unequal sects as well as secret organizations, would flood the entire mankind with their sectarian madness in delusional beliefs." ANSWER: Hi Norm, "Secret Government" means organizations like the CIA, NSA, etc. etc. "Certain terrestrial organizations" means certain governmental organizations/parts. In Contact 241: UFO sects, etc. etc. Phil638 Member Post Number: 185 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 09:13 am:        originally posted by Sean140 - "I have to agree with you Phil, there does seem to be more to the Illuminati than Billy has said. But I don't think Billy has anything to gain from working with them." I never said that and I would never believe that either. Kingman you forgot to add the illuminati's organisation name in that long list of suspect organisations who could fit the bill as well as you didn't give any reasons/details on how and why you think the roman catholic church fits the "beast worldwide organisation" bill that semjase spoke about, other then to throw an old quote saying in? Semjase clearly said the beast (666) is an organisation and when billy was talking about what bush and his trusted ones (illuminati's) did to the world trade centre, quetzal said 666 that is correct? And if semjase said 666 the beast belongs to an organisation and really to an individual, then who do you think that quetzal was reffering to when he said 666 to billy? Contact 230 - Billy: monstrous, really monstrous. it would also be just as monstrous if/when the world trade centre would be destroyed by terrorists with captured comercial airplanes, through which thousands of people would die, that Bush junior - and various of his criminal trusted ones knew that then, however undertook nothing against it. A criminal act that gains Bush the upper hand and he can let loose against Islam, naturally always under the cloak/veil that they would free the USA and the world from terrorism. It would not be discussed that it would be the Bushes who would bring the greatest terror over the world, at least for the next 15 years. Quetzal: 666 that is correct. http://www.theyfly.com/newsletter/aug05/aug05.htm How does any of the organisations on that list of yours fit into that picture of the WTC attacks and which one of those organisations uses the science of numerology in their wicked dealings too? And also lets not forget that the giza intelligences were the ones who gave Jesus his numerological name which equals 666 and not the roman catholic church. And also that the illuminati are the giza intelligences offspring and who follow and conduct themselves in the same footsteps as them too. It would be nice if you could give reasons how the R.C.C fits into the world trade centre attacks with bush and his trusted ones organisation which is where and which is the organisation that quetzal said the 666 belongs too and I didn't see the R.C.C being anywhere around it is all? phil phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 186 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 02:50 pm:        sean140 I wasn't able to explain myself well enough to you before in my prior post because I had to rush it in because of how i had to quickly stepout out for while, and is also why I made all those incoherent wording mistakes in them few diferent sentences there to kingman too. sean140, I never meant to suggest that the reason why I think that billy was playing the illuminati down there was for any kind of reason like as if he was working with them like you had suggested there. I said at the end of one of my prior posts before that one possible reason why he could have done that was for him not to risk a greater increase in assasination attempts on his life. And if you think about it, whichever organisation it is that is that culprit organisation, if that organisations name was put forward to billy in a question, then i would assume he would play that organisation down instead of him speaking the full truth on that organisation so he can avoid stating it as the culprit organisation. He deliberately hasn't mentioned who that culprit organisation is by name yet and I don't think his about to just because someone happened to put a question in to him about that organisation. But I would never consider for a single moment that billy would ever be working on the bad illuminati guys side like you had suggested there. No chance there. kingman when I first wanted to find out about who this organisation was, the first organisation that I thought of was the roman catholic church because of how semjase said that the organisations name is a 3 part word name and also because of a few other things about the R.C.C. too. But then i quickly dismissed the R.C.C. as being the culprit organisation when I remembered what quetzal had said to billy when he said "666 That is correct" after billy spoke about bush and his trusted ones being responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Am I wrong having it centered around the 9/11 attacks and bush? No-ones offered me any good reasons yet about why the illuminati aren't that culprit organisation like I been asking for. If you or anyone else here "knows" for sure who that culprit organisation is, then by all means could you or they just please say who it is and say it like they "know" for it is and why too because I would really like to know is why. It really wouldn't bother me much in finding out here that I was wrong either because I know i had some good points that lead me to believe that the illuminati organisation were the organisation. I think if some people here that know I've been barking up the wrong tree with all this because they "know" who it is, then I think that they should speak up and say clearly who it is, instead of saying nothing and watching me lead others astray if I am wrong here. Billy and the plejarens aren't going to say who it is and I would very much like to know who it is, so if anyone here (repected forum member) knows for sure who it is then please let me and everyone else here know who it is too please. phil Kingman Member Post Number: 66 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 08:44 pm:        Phil, I think that what you refer to as the Illuminati is a general term that can define the directive a group or subject is likened to. Meaning that if I were to point someone out who I believed had a agenda that played along the lines of a NWO idea, I could label that person Illuminati-like. And from what I gather from some of your posts here, I would have to agree with you that much of what's not right with this world is operated by these "Illuminati's". I would not describe them as belonging to a single organization, cause that doesn't quite exist as a whole. But they all seem to follow the same patterns of driving society closer and closer to a one government world, with the general population under their watch, slaving for Big Brother. And here's why I put the RCC at the top of the list... The Roman Catholic Church has been around millenniums and has been the sole lasting organization that has been building wealth without taxes or oversight the whole time. It's not possible that any other organization could even get close to what they have accumulated. Only the US as a whole would be seen as something larger, yet all that wealth is spread wide and unconnected. So I feel it's really easy to place the RCC at the most influential position as a Illuminati-type organization. I agree with the statement " Money rules the world". I'm not privy to any special info that tells me the RCC is doing anything overly world controlling, it's just a personal belief I carry. So, Illuminati is just a good description of these types of groups, not as a group in and of itself. Hope this opinion helps. a friend in america Shawn Sean140 New member Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Friday, December 16, 2005 - 09:58 pm:        Oh ok, I misunderstood exactly what you were saying. Melli Member Post Number: 41 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 05:23 am:        For those who wish to read a different take on the Illuminati, I suggest you visit a website called; www.savethemales.ca The man is not afraid to explain how today's world is really the continuation of the past. Phil638 Member Post Number: 187 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 08:59 pm:        Hi kingman, I think that you could be right and I am now begining to think that the Roman Catholic Church is the organisation in question here below that semjase was reffering too and not the illuminati organisation. Semjase: The animal (The Beast) is only to be seen as a symbol, because in truth it concerns a worldwide organization with a three-part name. This organization is embodied by the church and its adherents..." Roman Catholic Church = The Beast. phil Kingman Member Post Number: 67 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 02:13 pm:        Hi Phil, I found myself marveling at the longevity of the RCC. A very well organized institution that cloaked itself in an aura of the well-being of mankind that permeated across borders, languages, cultures, and changing rulers. To raise a voice against them you could find yourself ostracized or charged with blasphemy. They answer to zero oversight, and it's not unusual for them to receive needed services or supplies being donated. Many families automatically offer 10% of their income without hesitation. The number of followers is massive. The accumulated wealth is a world dominating power source that can't be countered. It is hard to think the church doesn't exert it's will across all peoples and governments. Power corrupts, absolute power absolutely corrupts. Diversions( Illuminati ) are created by the church to draw the attention away from them being the only entities with the power and financing able to mold societies directions. These would be necessary to maintain their "innocent" status with the peoples goodwill. So the creation of slightly secretive groups are the tools of deception employed as the dark misty adversary to the glowing, caring image projected by the priests. Elements of evil are incorporated into these adversaries as the examples used to fear the church followers believing they must be protected. I am inclined to place the influence of the Giza Intelligences inside the deepest recesses of the RCC. Without the Giza Intelligences(GI) interfering (removed from Earth by the Plejaren) in the designs of the church, I feel the inner circle of the RCC has been free to design society on it's own. I sense that also the rest of the world that had been directed by the GI is now operating on their own evil agendas and this explains why we can witness outright plans for control of the world. As bad as the GI were, they kept several opposing power holders at bay with the uncertainty factor they wielded. The dark energy they used in their ceremonies to control different secret groups is being imitated by the followers of these energies with similar ceremonies marked by the rise in the last 20-30years of pedophile incidences of government office holders. The leveraging power of blackmailing anyone compromised by their involvement in these ceremonies creates a governing body within a government hidden in plain sight. This is the scourge that intrigues our planet currently. a friend in america Shawn Phil638 Member Post Number: 188 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 05:11 am:        yes I tend to agree with you kingman. I also just now realised that I was wrong before in saying that the Roman Catholic Church was nowhere near the 9/11 attacks and that it was all the illuminati's work. (numeralogical 11 written all over the attacks) I've just recently found out from a rock solid good source that about 50 odd Roman Catholic Church Popes are all proven to be also Freemasons/illuminati's. I could easily provide the source if anyone would like to know. So it looks like the illuminati's are under the Roman Catholic Church's power. Roman Catholic Church = The Beast. phil Phil638 Member Post Number: 189 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2005 - 05:35 am:        I forgot to mention a couple of things in my above post. I thought I was on the right trail with labelling the illuminati organisation as "The Beast". I was right, only I didn't know as of yet then that it didn't end with that organisation and that they were operating under another much larger organisation - the Roman Catholic Church. The other thing I forgot to say is directed to the Roman Catholic Church who would be closely monoriting all this discussion here, and that is - 1. I got all the information to conclude to myself that R.C.C is the beast on the net and not from this website. 2. I am only 16 years old, so sue me if you beasts like to try too. phil Sean140 Member Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 02:59 pm:        Well Phil, It seems that you are very close to the truth when you said that the Roman Catholic Church is The Beast. I just read a new article that has some of the quotes from the Pope and they are frightening and echo many of the worries that have been addresssed on this forum. Here are just a few quotes along with a two links to the Pope's speach. "Do not fear; put your trust in him! The life-giving power of his light is an incentive for building a new world order based on just ethical and economic relationships," "Today we can dispose of vast material resources. But the men and women in our technological age risk becoming victims of their own intellectual and technical achievements, ending up in spiritual barrenness and emptiness of heart." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/25/upope.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/12/25/ixportaltop.html http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/051225/w122526.html I would try to give my opinion of all this except I simply don't know what to say at the moment. Consolato Member Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 03:13 am:        Hi shawn, just in relation to this you said - "I sense that also the rest of the world that had been directed by the GI is now operating on their own evil agendas and this explains why we can witness outright plans for control of the world." You know how the plejarens removed the giza intelligences because they weren't supposed to be here, why couldn't the plejarens also have nuetralised the negative thoughts/impulses that the giza intelligences put into all the earth people who are now operating from the negative impulses the giza intelliganes put into them? The plejarens could easily send positive impulses/thoughts into all the people that were affected by the giza intelligences, couldn't they? These earth people that were manipulated by the giza intelligences are all innocent too, aren't they? It would also be a very big help to humanity as well as billy's mission too if the plejarens done this action on our behalf as it would eliminate some of our greatest present day problems if all these power people were nuetralised too. Did the plejarens choose not to do this because they believed it was these peoples problem or it was humanities problem, or was it something else like they weren't allowed to do this action by order of the high council? Con Kingman Member Post Number: 68 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 05:12 pm:        Hi Con, The Plejaren aren't required to fulfill the High Councils directions, but rely on their greater understanding and follow the High Councils suggestions. The Plejaren were only able to intervene and remove the GI when they directly attacked Billy and exposed themselves. The remaining dark influence will be our responsibility, and as always man must learn and grow through his own experiences to properly embed the knowledge into our collective consciousness. Intervention is truly a last resort and mainly done when our actions could potentially alter our world or nearby regions of space for the worst. a friend in america Shawn Hunter Member Post Number: 176 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 04:41 pm:        In the latest question and answer session Billy advocates using the legal system to remove the corrupt forces and restore sanity to the government. In that spirit, I'd like to ask everyone to donate to the We The People foundation. They have appealed their lawsuit over the right to petition for redress of grievances. If they win the appeal, any American who has a grievance can safely withhold all of their taxes from the government. Guess what? The war in Iraq is a legitimate grievance. If the U.S. doesn't pull out we can withdraw our financial support and force them to pull out. Anyway, the group is far from perfect. You'll notice several references towards Christianity, but by funding them you'll at least force the government to defend against their case--and it most likely will go all the way to the Supreme Court. Their website is http://www.givemeliberty.org George Member Post Number: 80 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 10:40 am:        Hi there Hunter, in the history of the world there did not exist any governmental structure that could survive financially and govern at same time without requiring those that wanted government structure to pay taxes. Maybe emphasis should be on catching all of the Big guys that put their fat hands into the Social Security Cookie Jar and stuffing their Corporate/private pockets full of retirement benefit money(like George Bush and his Fat Friends just did). These are the same people that make Wars all over the world Today with our SS tax money and leave us the deficit to work on – until the Cookie Jar is full again. Sort of ‘Greedy and Selfish Honey Bee Keeper’ Syndrome. Maybe this is a good time to slap those Fat Hands instead. Salome George. Consolato Member Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 12:55 pm:        Hi hunter, i think thats a great idea but how can people in america or in any other country for that matter withhold from paying their taxes if their taxes are automatically taken out of their workpay each week? Con Hunter Member Post Number: 177 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 08:13 pm:        Hi George, I think there is a lack of understanding in the world when it comes to taxation and government programs. Taxation is another form of violence. It is not voluntary. If you do not comply you can be arrested and imprisoned. If you resist arrest and defend yourself, you can be killed. Thus, taxation in its current form, as latent or potential violence, will invariable create undesired effects because it violates creational laws. America functioned quite well without an income tax for approximately 150 years. Massive poverty did not exist during this time and living conditions in early America were as good or better than anywhere else in the world. This is not to say things were perfect--perfection isn't obtainable for us at this point--but people who needed help received it from private charities or religious organizations. There is a better way. I would ask you to please take the time to read the following: http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/rutoc.html Yes, we need to focus on getting better "big guys" i.e. leaders, but I don't ever see a good leader coming from either the Republicans or the Democrats. America needs to wake up and realize both major parties are mired in corruption. Namaste, Hunter Hunter Member Post Number: 178 Registered: 03-2004 Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 04:51 pm:        Consolato, There are legal ways to prevent your employer from withholding. Some of them are taught by the following group. If you want a good education, do some reading on their website and sign up for their newsletter: http://www.imfdecoder.com Namaste, Hunter