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Archive through November 24, 2009

Discussionboard of FIGU » The Spiritual Teaching » Meditation » Archive through November 24, 2009 « Previous Next »

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Badr
Moderator

Post Number: 514
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 05:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone recently read the description on this page?

To help out I will paste it here
"Discussions on Meditation and its various forms such as Pentra, OM, Death Meditations. "


So please stop talking about smoking and start talking about the various forms of meditation mentioned in the spiritual teachings.

Peace..
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Hector
Member

Post Number: 524
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 06:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Bob thank you for your last post. Your explanation about socalled fluent meditation is quite interesting. I already knew one type of meditation consists in registering, observing, contemplating, sensing, analyzing, evaluating, monitoring, classifying the nature and origin of our own thoughts. Thoughts and ideas are an indispensable part of our material thinking, and these thoughts/ideas are constantly coming and vanishing, following some sort of "automatic mode "pattern, and we human beings do neither control nor analyze the nature, structure and origins of our own thoughts and ideas.

The common practices of meditation do use an object (a material object) suck like a candle, a drawing, a landscape... as the vehicle for meditation. People usually do not know that their own ideas and thoughts can serve as meditation vehicle. A vehicle for meditating which is not stationary, fixed, unmovable....fluent, as you say. I could compare it to running an antivirus while the personal computer is performing many operations/tasks. The antivirus software observes, registers, analizes, identifies nature and origin of every file. These files come and go. The antivirus program can not only register/analize, but also block, delete or warn about corrupt files. The main mission of the antivirus is to keep the whole computer, the whole system under control. Now change file for thought/idea and antivirus for meditation practice and there you have it.

You will be able to keep most of your ordinary and also "wild" ideas/thoughts under control because you will perform a regular audit/evaluation of your own innner world. A much balanced, quiet, harmonious psyche will result from practicing this kind of meditation in which your own thoughts act as meditation object/vehicle.

Btw....It's been a long time since last time you posted....Sometimes i do not really welcome "comebacks"....But in your particular case i'm quite pleased to see that you keep on contributing to explain, expand and dissect Billy's writings and the Geisteslehre in general.
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Phi_spiral
Member

Post Number: 463
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My ego thanks you for your kind words, Hector. And I mean that in the most on-topical-meditative sense per your post above about thought sourcing.
;-)

Kind regards
Bob
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Silence
Member

Post Number: 9
Registered: 09-2009
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 08:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The meditation that Bob described I found some time ago in the Buddhism teachings.

From what I recollect - there are two distinct approaches to meditation in Buddhism. One is called samatha and the other vipassana. The samatha meditation is about placing our attention on a single object - breath, candle light, sensation and so on. This is where we train our concentration power, so that we can gently and with ease later on shift our attention as we wish.
Vipassana meditation is about observing the "thought-stream" So it is expierencing that everything is in motion. Change sort of becomes our meditation object. We notice the rising, it's middle , and fading away each time. We don't fight the change but simply watch it. This sort of meditation requires more skill, which can be developed by the samatha meditation. And in samatha you also shift your attention to a object. So in some sense both meditations are complementary to each other.

Adam
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Phi_spiral
Member

Post Number: 464
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 04:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That’s right, Adam. In the old Lyranischen language, MEDITATIA means = sinking-probing. The concept MEDITATION used by us today has changed only slightly in its expression, but not at all in the meaning. And Billy writes that the meditation teachings as taught and explained in his book, Einführung in die Meditation, were taught in its main features on the earth already since millennia. The oldest written recording of the meditation teaching is to be found in Sanskrit, which was the written language of the aryan conquerors of India, the Indogermanen. In Sanskrit, meditation is called ‘sinking’ (samadhi) with which the mental organ, through meditation and contemplation (dhyana), is no longer conscious of itself but only of the object and flows together with it. With Buddha, this flowing together is the last step of the 8-fold path of attentiveness.

Regards
Bob
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 77
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 05:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The idea of vipassana vs. samatha meditations can also be seen as subjectivity vs. objectivity.

So what is religious thinking (subjectivity), and how might it differ from reality-based thinking (objectivity)? And where might the convergence of the two be (consensuality)?

In vipassana meditation one applies objectivity to subjective processes by observing one's internal thought stream, while conversely in samatha meditation one applies subjectivity to objective happenstances by 'seeing' some reality in terms of some known expectation. The consensuality, the commonality, in both instances is the same - love.

This love is not overwhelming, it does not necessarily cause tears to fall. Instead, this love is grounding, grounding in whatever is perceived, and provides foundational fortitude as a result.

Caveat lector: just because I think that I have figured out love doesn't mean I should be the world's best lover, or most grounded person, because I can assure that I am not. I am probably not as grounded as most of you here. Indeed, I seem to be finding ghosts and fairies hidden behind every rock, under every tree, so to speak. : )
Love is always the way
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 78
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 06:04 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In looking for a path to follow, one can choose from among Patanjali's eight-fold path according to one's inclination - Bhakti or Jnana might be the most direct, and Raja allows one to walk the path while still relating to everyone around you. Or one can walk some other path, or no path in particular. Relative enlightenment may not even be your goal.

Vipassana and samatha meditational styles are merely attempts to categorize by polarizing methodologies, but in fact, both methods are in constant use by us as we live our lives, walking about wherever we go.

Love itself is not a path. It is instead a guiding light; it illuminates your path. And it is the final destination, too.
Love is always the way
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Indi
Member

Post Number: 358
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 07:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

or you could follow Billy's instructions!
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Adysor
Member

Post Number: 198
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 10:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What happens if one follows no path? Does evolution happen for him/her?
Adrian.
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Indi
Member

Post Number: 359
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 11:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ahh, yes the path of following no path -- the aimless path!

the evolution using this path, would be hit and miss and likely take a lot lot longer

Robyn
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Thomas
Member

Post Number: 758
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 04:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes of course evolution continues no matter what although it can stagnate
patricksdadinfrance@yahoo.com
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Earthling
Member

Post Number: 317
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 07:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ah, philosophy ... is there such a thing as following no path?

imo, no such thing
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 80
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Along this path, one can go foward and back, take the sideroads and smell the roses, dig potholes or smooth the path for your fellow walkers. Really the path imagery is probably over-used (I should take this to heart, eh?). Perhaps a better imagery to use is evolution itself.

The question is: in what direction are we evolving? It seems to me we are evolving an existence that brings further joy to our souls. This may occur by realizing subtleties, or by spreading niceties, or by building and growing, or some of the other joys in life.

Of course, many people haven't caught on to this yet. Indeed, it will probably take a few million years for some of the more recalcitrant peoples of Earth. But for us, presumably, that is why we are trying to figure this out, and develop it in ourselves, this evolving of the vibe.
Love is always the way
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Hector
Member

Post Number: 527
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Following a certain evolutionary path (sich as Billys Geisteslehre, philosophy, or non religious meditation) could make evolution and human existence a bit softer and a bit easier. The road leading to being one with creation is paved with evolutionary potholes. What symbolize these potholes? Human errors, human mistakes.

Billy's Geisteslehre, or real meditation do not spare you and me making every kind of evolutionary mistakes, but at least they do try to point out the most painful ones, and warn us about the danger/risk resulting from making such mistakes. The Geisteslehre will signpost the most dangerous potholes in the road to being one with creation. Of course human beings are free to pay attention to the warning, or ignore the warning.

A certain path can lead to success, (Geisteslehre/spirit teachings) or a certain path can lead to getting lost in a sea of falseness and untruth (Religion). Very important: The election of a certain spiritual path must be free of coercion, force or deceit. It is a personal, individual election, which cannot be chosen by others. There's where religion miserabily fails....God does choose "what's good for you" while truth/reality shows that absolutely no entity in the whole universe can take away the human being's free will, because free will grants a proper evolution/learning process. Orders and commands just grant slavery, submissiveness, spiritual poverty and stagnation.

This is my personal opinion, and of course you are freely entitled to agree or to disagree with it.
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Victor
Member

Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

allo, you can choose follow no path this lifetime, but you cannot choose now to follow no path next lifetime.
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Adysor
Member

Post Number: 202
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Yes of course evolution continues no matter what although it can stagnate" from Thomas.

I agree, I think people evolve even if they have no idea of a path. So do animals and plants, there is no predetermined path for them and I wouldn't think there should be a special one for us.

But the evolution in plants and animals happens only in physical terms only, and perhaps so does ours.

You guys understand that we are talking of three very different kind of evolutions. There is the physical evolution which is the mutation of the genes. There is the evolution of the mind, thoughts and ideas(which happens only to humans or at least so we think). And last, is what Billy affirms, that there is the evolution of the spirit or spiritual evolution. Unlike the first two kinds of evolution where we know that the physical and the ideas(thoughts) exist, we have no idea of the existence of the spirit. So, all the efforts in following the right path, way or direction is misleading because we don't know the spirit, let alone the path/way/direction we should take.

Am I wrong to think that way?
Adrian.
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 81
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 04:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It isn't wrong to model reality. Just be able to let go of the model occasionally, to then test your reality with a fresh perspective. 'No mind' can refer to no expectations.

Here is a Zen koan that I like:
I sit on the grass and watch the grass grow,
And the grass grows,
All by itself.
Love is always the way
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Paul
New member

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 10:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"So, all the efforts
in following the right path, way or direction is misleading because we don't know the spirit, let alone the path/way/direction we should take."

Thank you Adrian. I personally feel that this is the best way to think. Their isn't necessarily a "right path",their are just guidelines to follow (or not) that are in accordance with the laws of Creation (natural laws)and therefore their are many "right paths" that exist within the laws.

I have a question, and if anybody can help me that would be much appreciated.

According to "Billy's" teachings, why should we meditate? Do we gain any deeply profound spiritual understanding through meditation or is it just a way to make our present existence more joyful and clear and perhaps more tolerable when times are hard?

Thank you in advance for any information.

Paul
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Phi_spiral
Member

Post Number: 465
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Paul

Billy states on page 39, of Einführung in die Meditation, that meditation does not simply serve as relaxation which is why it is also recommended by doctors - no, it serves, above all, the self discipline of the person, the training of their spirit, the realisation and development of internal peace and the balance and actual mastering of life in general.

Regards
Bob
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Indi
Member

Post Number: 360
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 08:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

to add to Bob's post #465

in the Geisteslehre, Billy teaches that if you want to be able to access the information stored in the Spiritual subconscious, then it is necessary to develop ones powers of pure observation and pure knowing.

This can be achieved through meditation, proficiency attained in this way, leading to the ability of the material consciousness to receive and recognize the impulses from the spiritual subconscious, and to thereby utilize in ones material existence.

Robyn
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Paul
New member

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow,

Thank you Bob. I am really looking forward to mastering the German language and studying Billy's writings. I am sure that there is a mine of valuable information within the Spirit Teachings.

Could you tell me please, just out of interest, do the pure spirit levels of Arahat Athersata and above still practice some sort of meditation?

Thanks again for any information.
Paul
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Hector
Member

Post Number: 530
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 02:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Paul, Arahat Athersata means "The precious one who contemplates the times".....Contemplation in this case may also be a form of meditation. When you, me, or other human beings meditate, our range or field of perception is limited by space and time. When you reach the Arahat Athersata level, i guess your range/field of perception is multiplied by 1xxxxxxx........Space and time are no limit anymore.

By the way...evolution never stops, it never halts until the end of Creation's expansion phase. So Arahat Athersata is also obliged to strive for a higher evolution, a higher refinement of their spirit. Just like everything which is programmed/destined to become one with the Creation in the far, far future.
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Thomas
Member

Post Number: 769
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 09:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Robyn can you define "pure knowing" please?=A0 I have an idea but you are m= ore concise and knowledgeable than I.=A0 It would be helpful :-)
patricksdadinfrance@yahoo.com

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