| Author |
Message |
   
Kiwiseeker
Member
Post Number: 77
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 31, 2009 - 07:39 pm: | 
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Sanjin, when I first saw the translation as `earths`, it didn't sound right, but as I said I twigged later when I saw the word (worlds) added. I still believe that `worlds` would be more appropriate. Also I agree with your post 13; like you the materialistic meaning came to mind when I saw the word Götzen. My Geddes and Grosset dictionary gives `tin god`: an often pompous or dictatorial person who demands or receives more respect than is merited; a self-important person; a person who is undeservedly venerated; idol: an image or object worshiped as a god. So both terms are relevant in the way that both idols and tin gods may be worshipped, but are different in respect of what/who is/are worshipped; perhaps there is a place for both terms.
Charles |
Matthew_justin_deagle
Member
Post Number: 99
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 12:42 pm: |
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To use 'value' and 'worth' differently is only a matter of convention and a slight one of sense.
'Value' hath connexion to the Latin concept of 'valetude', or health as constituted in the dignity, capability, and worth of a man. 'Worth' does not so ummediately possess this sense. Though, in MEANING (importance, Bedeutung) they are generally identical words and one should not foolishly confuse oneself over them.
I will probably soon make more comment about the recent translations, although I must express dissatisfaction in general with the refusal to aptly cultivate the English language, the uttermost fumbling about the translation of the simplest concepts, and the unintelligible desire to verbicidally utilize only the vulgar vocabulary, and not the full range of English verbage (I did not say 'verbi-age').
For instance, in the translation about the psyche, why was no translation given for 'Wesen', when English has at least 2 befitting words, namely WIGHT & GENIUS, meaning precisely the same as 'Wesen' (the former of which unambiguously so)?
Such pandering to popular ill-literacy has no proper place, I opine, in translations of the writings of a man who has warned us against the dire consequences of so minute an error as the pronunciation of Plejaren names else than they are written and spoken in German (e.g. Sem-Jase (Demi-Goddess) versus Sem-Jasi (Demi-Goddess of Curses)).
These translations have simply proven my previous statements mostly correct, as like pointed out that to go with the direction of popular English is to fail at the task of translation.
High English, so to speak, began to originate as an artificial language beginning in the 19th century, mostly fixed in at Oxford University, although they only went halfways with their efforts, and fell back, or at least lost influence, with the mid to end of the 20th century. If the modern tide of death and wrongness is not fought now, there worth not be an English language at all, save among a few interested scholars, in the coming centuries.
To use the total treasure of words freely, creatively, logicaly, and intelligibly (understandably), by genuine meaning with consideration for evolution, sense-development & technical use, etc, is the only way in which some prospect is to be had of teaching or discussing witledge (knowledge) upon the plane of the German FIGU writings.
Firstly, though superfluous synonyms be characteristic of English, the unnecessary collapse together of the senses and meanings of words must get either reversed or avoided, depending from the word in attension.
In this manner, supposedly untranslatable words, such as Gemüt, Wesen, etc, may get well translated after all.
For a particular example, pay heed to the proper meaning of the word 'courage':
Kabbalistically: courage = 1662285 = 30 = Gemüt = 954651
Meaninglily: courage = the whole mind or spiritual balance, composure, constitution, quiet/tranquility of consciousness, etc
Sensually: courage = the collection of heartly things, both in the abstract and literal sense (the percardium is associated herewith in the psyche and organism according to Chinese medicine), the sign of Libra (the scales), the hexagram 'fire of fire' (the clinging) of the I Ching, the use of 'Kokoro' to mean 'Psyche' in the Japanese translation of 'die Psyche' (as the percardium protects the heart, so doth the Gemüt/courage protect the psyche), etc
Therefore, the word 'courage' is a precise translation for the German word 'Gemüt', if only cultivated speakers will use it correctly and reasonably.
Salome,
- Matthew |
Matthew_justin_deagle
Member
Post Number: 100
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 12:45 pm: |
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Götze = idol, offgod, godlet
Abgott = offgod/afgod |
Chiswick
New member
Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 01:45 pm: |
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r u able to contact other members? I am trying to chat with an Aussie about Billy Meier my email is shannah68@optusnet.com.au if you can help |
Matthew_justin_deagle
Member
Post Number: 101
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 02:24 pm: |
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You are all overcomplicating perfectly clear and understandable things.
Kiwiseeker,
'Worlds' properly means 'cosmoses', 'mounds' or 'virons/vironments', thus 'universes', so 'worlds' is NOT a correct translation. The use of 'world' to mean 'Earth' is partly connected with the wrong doctrine (heresy) of the Earth being the centre of the universe and the only planet bearing life, which still persists to this day in the form of ignorance about extraterrestrials, and such a belief was not present in Nokodemjon's time. |
Cpl
Member
Post Number: 464
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 08:39 pm: |
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Matthew, In your opinion is courage or Gemut (can't find the superscript dotted "u") similar to the Indian viryana making viryana the Indian translation of Gemut? (Not sure of the Indian spelling, going from ancient memory.)
As you probably know, Viryana is said to be something akin to the energy, courage, keenness, and/or dedication and discipline necessary for spiritual progress.
Chris |
Sanjin
Member
Post Number: 15
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 09:01 pm: |
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Thanks everyone for sharing. So it usually has the same meaning, but differs grammatically. The reason why I brought it up, is because there is a more significant mistake which should be fixed. The word unwürdig is translated as unworthy, but that must be changed. The right word is either undignified or loses/lost/without dignity. The same counts for the opposite "würdig", which means dignified.
When stating that a person is unworthy, that is contradictory to one of the main lessons of the teachings. I see the meaning of unworthy as having no or not enough worthiness or value.
This teaching contradicts directly the teachings of equitableness (fairness/responsibility).
Unworthiness is written as unwert and that is used for other things like unwerte Kulte (unworthy cults). Please change it to the right value. If necessary, I will bring up the page and verse/section numbers. Let me know if that is needed. |
Rarena
Member
Post Number: 465
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:16 am: |
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Matthew; I dissagree Courage = Gemüte.
Value and Worth is also not equivalent. For example worth signifies a materialness whereas value could be a non physical attribute.
It has been my experience using several different language programs as well as dictionaries... there can be as many as eighteen English words to represent eh eh "accurately" one German word.
CPL type alt key and "numeric keypad" at the same time:
alt 0252 = ü
alt 0220 = Ü
alt 0214 = Ö
alt 0246 = ö
alt 0228 = ä
alt 0196 = Ä |
Indi
Member
Post Number: 329
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:20 am: |
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Sanjin
you wrote:
When stating that a person is unworthy, that is contradictory to one of the main lessons of the teachings. I see the meaning of unworthy as having no or not enough worthiness or value.
In this instance 'unworthy' can fit, as long as one is used to the special context it is referring to.
The word 'unworthy' or unwürdig, when used in this sense means that those referred to are not 'fit for' or are not in a state that will allow them to appreciate the value of the teachings they are considered unworthy of receiving - not having the requisite qualities or skills to do something competently.
To be 'worthy' of higher knowledge, requires a state of readiness, or awareness in this sense which really means 'deservedness'.
That is just how it is used.
There are other words in German that could be used but Billy has chosen unwürdig.
The saying not 'to cast pearls before swine' means that the 'swine' are unworthy of receiving such pearls.
Robyn |
Michael_horn
Member
Post Number: 10
Registered: 07-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 08:24 am: |
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From Mariann Uehlinger for Herr Prof. Deagle:
Hi Michael
Do you know this Matthew? Does he have a screw loose somewhere? I hope he doesn't make his threat true to make more comments about the recent translations. If Christian wants to answer, I don't care, we are not going to, it's too stupid. To say that "courage" is the right word for the spiritual part of the material psyche, namely the Gemuet, is already ridiculous, and also the "Wesen" is not the genius. Billy told us what "Wesen" means and we put the explanation in the "Goblet" as footnote. Supposing you know him, tell him to stop with this nuisance.
Thanks!
Salome
Mariann |
Matthew_justin_deagle
Member
Post Number: 102
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 01:13 pm: |
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Cpl,
I don't know enough Sanskrit to comment, let alone answer, about that, though probably you could consult a Sanskrit dictionary on the matter and find clear enough answers through comparison. (Whatever the case, it wirthe (would) be interesting to cognow (cognise) what some of the values of Sanskrit words are.
I do wit (know) how the words Gemüt, Mut, & Kühnheit should get used in German & English, however, as Billy has explained this in his books.
In English, these three have partly fallen together, and partly severed off into different meanings, but Mut=animus, Gemüt=courage, & Kühnheit=bravery/boldness/audacity/(daring)/etc
Note also that these words are not used genuinely in German, either, and Gemüt is often taken to mean a number of different things related to the psyche and mentality (Einstellung, Gefühlsleben, etc), while Mut is taken to mean simply 'Kühnheit' at times, when this is uncorrect.
Billy recommends the correct and proper usage of all words, in German and in English. So, we must find out what those are.
Salome,
- Matthew
---
Sanjin,
Würde = Dignity, Dignifiedness, Worthiness; All of these have the same value, which is to be -worthy- or -dignous/dignified- of something. If one is worthy, one meets the worth (value, honour, etc) of that thing, and if one is dignous/dignified, one is deigned by that thing (to meet its worth/value). To disdeign (disdain) is to hold as unworthy of oneself. Thus, is is not of one's dignity (not dignified of one) who follows the spiritual teaching to worship tin gods, for instance. You seem confused about the importance of the teaching of 'equitability'. To be just & fair one must exclude certain unworths from one's character, in order to make judgements at all. Although human beings are of equal -ultimate- worth, their perosonalities, characters, activities, etc, are often very unaequal, at times utterly unworthy even of life. As a matter of fact, the Goblet of Truth often names persons and acts as 'unwürdig des Lebens', that is, undignous/unworthy of life, thus not corresponding to its values, character, harmony, etc. A degeneration is a disdignification of oneself, in this sense.
Value is from 'valere' (gelten), dignity from 'dignare' (to deign, deem worthy).
'Unwert' has a precise translation into English, namely 'unworth'... This appears in the Oxford Engilsh Dictionary and is auto-understandable, methinks. If something is worth, it has a value, if something is unworth, it is valueless, unvalid (invalid) (ungültig), yiedling nothing of value ergo. So when for instance it is spoken of unworth cults, these are cults yielding no value for Man.
I would have many criticisms to lay about the translation of the Goblet of Truth, but I will only criticise the first segment (desegment, Abschnitt) for now:
1. 'Das' means 'that', not this. It renders a different sense than 'this' at the beginning of the first paragraph.
2. 'Wissend' means 'witting', not 'knowing' (kennend), so this should be put in parentheses next to the translation where such words may cause confusion about the importance.
3. A 'Richtlinie' is a directive line, not a guideline (Leitlinie), giving a different sense, although mostly the same meaning. Although guiding (Führung) is implied, direction is not implied well enough, so this should also, as in the German with many odd words, be placed next the translation in parentheses (guideline (directive line)).
4. A 'Gebot' is a law, a legation, a commandment, not a 'recommendation' (Empfehlung), and that word is simply misleadingly unstrong.
5. A 'Gesetz' is literally a 'fixture' (of Nature, so THEMIS, not NOMOS), and this should be in parentheses next 'law', in fact along with the Greek 'Themis', since most students of philosophy or mythology may be familiar with the difference (For astrologers, it is parly the difference between Libra (Themis) and Aries (Nomos). Aries is the foundation of society, the legations/commandments of Man based upon reason (Vernunft), while Libra is the foundation of natural order, the fixtures/laws of Nature based upon Empfindung/unfinding/spiritual sensation/reality).
6. 'Aussehen' could be translated as 'species' as well, and as usual, multiple translations should be in parentheses to give the different senses of this word.
7. For 'Dasein', the word 'presence', perhaps with (therebeing) in parentheses, wirthe (would) have been intelligible to a literate person.
8. 'Gleichstimmung' means 'concert', 'concord', 'aequimodulation', 'orchestracy', 'same-tuning', or 'harmony', etc, as well.
9. Why you did not use 'swelling onwards', 'swelling on' or 'intumescence' for 'Anschwellung', I cannot intellect.
10. 'Mensch' means 'Man' or 'Human', while 'human being' means 'Menschsein'. I also recommend the older 'vire' or 'were' for 'male human' (with the latter in parentheses).
When translating OM, such universal, temporally unbound language MUST become used for any genuine regivement of the sense and meaning of the writ to get through to the reader.
This is not exhaustive or entire (integer, complete, vollständig, eigentlich 'vollgliedrig' wie eine Kette oder ein Organismus, which by the way does not quite translate 'gesamt' = collective, summed), but is the beginning of at least a commentary.
I shall simply myself translate the total first segment.
Salome,
- Matthew |
Matthew_justin_deagle
Member
Post Number: 103
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 01:45 pm: |
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* Merely to explain, 'guideline' combines the concepts of 'Richtlinie' and 'Leitlinie' (conductive line, line of conduction, as of traffic, technical usage, etc), but truly yields the sense 'Führungslinie', so considering the sense, the use of parentheses be serviceable, partly because the alchemical meanings of this very old part of the Goblet of Truth become more evident with more precise translation.
Salome,
- Matthew |
Cpl
Member
Post Number: 466
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 05:05 pm: |
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Thank you Randy for the typing "shortcut", and thank you Matthew.
Chris |
Kiwiseeker
Member
Post Number: 80
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 05:14 pm: |
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Matthew, I often find what you write to be quite confusing (sometimes like incoherent ramblings) and in particular your apparent association between concepts. When I think of the word `courage`, then the words bravery and fortitude immediately come to mind. However, when I think of a courageous warrior in battle, I find it diificult to find a connection between such a person and spiritual balance. Also, when you write `courage = the whole mind or spiritual balance`, then I question how `whole mind` could equate with `spiritual balance` or do you `meaninglily` ( or mean) the whole mind or spiritual-balance.
You write "Worlds' properly means 'cosmoses', 'mounds' or 'virons/vironments'[??], thus 'universes', so 'worlds' is NOT a correct translation." Since you use the word `thus` this would have us believe that because `worlds` means `mounds`, that `worlds` therefore means `universes`. I fail to see the connection with mounds [that dung heap I can see outside!].
You write "Therefore, the word 'courage' is a precise translation for the German word 'Gemüt', if only cultivated speakers will use it correctly and reasonably. " If that be so, then I have to confess to being uncultivated.
One of the objectives of this forum is for clarification, not confusion.
Charles |
Sanjin
Member
Post Number: 16
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 05:46 pm: |
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Indi, I do agree that if unworthy is meant as undeserving, that it fits certain contexts, but I also think that every single word, especially in the "Kelch der Wahrheit", is set for a specific reason.
You will notice that whenever a spiritual, consciousness-related or a material value is concerned, that the word "Wert" and its grammatical variations are used. But every time that a human being is referred to, the word würdig or unwürdig is used. A human is never referred to as being unwertig, that is unworthy.
In Chapter 2 of Kelch der Wahrheit, it says:
72) Beugt euch, Euresgleichen (Menschen) der Erde, nicht vor den Euresgleichen (Mitmenschen),
auch nicht vor denen der Obrigkeit, denn auch wenn sie hohe Titel tragen und Reichtum haben,
sind sie im Wert nicht mehr als ihr.
72)Do not, people of your kind (human beings) of Earth, bow down before people of your kind (fellow human beings), even not before those in authority because even if they bear grand titles and have wealth, they are not worth any more than you.
That means that in worth/value, every single person is the same, no matter how righteous or unrighteous, rich or poor, responsible or irresponsible, etc.
I borrowed my copy of the TJ to a friend, but if you look through it, you will notice the same thing.
The instance where it becomes serious, is in chapter 12 of the TJ, when it is stated that people are unworthy of life. Just do a google search for "unworthy of life" and you will know what I mean. I think that it is of utmost importance to preserve the "Spiritual Correctness", so that no misunderstandings can occur. |
Matthew_justin_deagle
Member
Post Number: 104
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 06:47 pm: |
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Michael,
Mariann Uehlinger apparently doesn't own, have access to, or read, an Oxford Dictionary, and probably doesn't know much about literary English in general, except for the most vulgar and/or modern varieties thereof.
She seems to believe (wrongly) that courage only means 'Mut' or 'Kühnheit', which is as if I were to tell her that 'Gemüt' means 'Psyche'.
Salome,
- Matthew |
Sanjin
Member
Post Number: 17
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 07:01 pm: |
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Matthew, I do agree with you on many things, but you have to consider that if the meaning is kept exactly the same, it would be unreadable for most people, and would end up dusty on a shelf. We should just make sure that it is as close as possible, without any mistranslations.
I think that it would be a good idea to allocate a forum specifically for the translation of the Kelch der Wahrheit, divide it up into each individual section, where visitors can discuss the meaning of each, in order to comprehend it to its fullest. That would also help us gain a better understanding of the material and enable us to pass it on to others.
That way we could have a good public product, and if the individual wants to look up and try to understand the exact meaning of each, he/she could stop by at the forum, look it up and talk about it in an orderly place. |
Matthew_justin_deagle
Member
Post Number: 105
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 07:01 pm: |
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As I have said, the spiritual doctrine requires the cultivation of the English language for proper translations.
To this end, modernly unusual uses of words such as 'courage', 'animus', etc, shall be in parentheses in 'plain' English translations (which are of course doomed not to correctly render the sense or meaning of the original, which is why increasingly more of you will listen to me as time passes).
I have already described the reasons why a High English is necessary alongside the popular form, especially among English-speaking students of spiritual teachings. This is also a countermeasure against the adaugescing abuse of jargon & meaningless and/or vain-sensed verbal concepts.
I may have a screw or two loose, but they are the screws which would pin me to the tumble of decay with which the modern world now cascades.
Salome,
- Matthew |
Matthew_justin_deagle
Member
Post Number: 107
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 07:21 pm: |
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Rarena,
It is not a matter of dispute, and depends not from agreement or disagreement. I am making a prescriptive statement of aequivalence without considering personal dialectical or stylistic variances.
The values you associate with 'value' and 'worth' are not genuinely there, but only accretions based upon hearing their use in your particular DIALECT.
Each English speaking man (human) must possess a copy or access to a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary & the Webster's Third New International Dictionary, to see the more refined prescriptions and described uses of English's words, and the untilled and mostly unweeded soil of word usage -possibilities- (especially in the O.E.D.).
This is whence I pluck the fruit which I make into apt English aequivalents for 'untranslatable' German words, such as Gemüt, Empfindung, etc. To correctly shape an -artificial- & thus less temporally dependent language, one must go back through all English's history, and give a vote to our ancestors, so to speak, retrieving some of their old farmer's wisdom rather than, as we are, trampling their graves (and our own brains) with meaningless and senseless jargon and debauched slang. One may speak however one pleaseth if one is speaking a dialect, but the high language, High English, just like High German or Mandarin, must be congruent.
Salome,
- Matthew |
Matthew_justin_deagle
Member
Post Number: 108
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 09:53 pm: |
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Whoever will wit (know) what a 'Wesen' is need only consult a book on Chinese Medicine, wherein the Chinese aequivalent, 'Jin' (Japanese 'Sei') is to be found, usually well explained.
Anyone who owns a copy of the 'Namensbücher' by Billy can also find that the name 'Geenjos' corresponds the notion of 'Wesen' (dem das Natürliche angeboren ist). The other meaning of the word, 'Geenjus', is covered, too. But this meaning accrued in more recent times due to formative causation, not etymology. WIGHT is the English word.
I do keep the total Greek and Roman civilisations (and the Atlanteans and Hyperboreans who went before them) in higher authority about the meaning of their word than a modern American and German fumbling to translate self-intelligible concepts.
Also, Sanjin, I opine, a man (Mensch) cannot be unworth (unwert), but a person (Person, Persönlichkeit) can be.
Salome,
- Matthew |
Thomas
Member
Post Number: 702
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 02:21 am: |
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Hi Matthew, I think that the main point is not to say who knows more or les= s, but to just insure that the meaning is clear and correct in the translat= ion.=A0 All the rest is academic fluff.
patricksdadinfrance@yahoo.com
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Thomas
Member
Post Number: 703
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 02:28 am: |
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Oops, I beleive I should have typed "ensure" but then again, I am no wordsm= ith (smiling)...
patricksdadinfrance@yahoo.com
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Rarena
Member
Post Number: 466
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 07:36 am: |
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Matthew,
It is probably more important to understand the German rather than the English.
Marianne and her husband were the final proof readers/spell checkers for the English translation of The Kelch der Wahrheit after the professional translator(s) was(were) paid to do so.
Since a large portion of the comparitivly rudimentry English language, originated from German... not to mention the writer wrote it in this language... which translation is more correct?
Billy Meier, the man who wrote this interesting and epic book obviously felt Marianne and her husband were worthy of the task...
It would most likely be good advice to heed her translations of Gemüt which she was kind enough to give with love... to you; a person whom obviously does not completely understand the teachings he is quoteing. |
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