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Archive through February 19, 2010

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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 156
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 10:03 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karl Popper addressed this topic when he delineated between what he called 'piecemeal social engineering' and 'utopian social engineering', which perhaps more easily can be thought of as organizational schemes for societal ideals and design, a bottom-up approach and top-down approach. Popper makes grand assumptions and broad judgments, but at least he is thinking about the subject.

These organizational schemes are, of course, the algorithms which I keep mentioning. The organizational scheme that is most followed in our society is currently determined by the people who make, distribute, exchange, store, loan, and asses valuations of work, in other words, the process which has come to be money and finance. And the type of society we have developed is a reflection of their 'vibe' (if you will allow such a loose descriptor).

Should a group of people who have a different 'vibe' (if you will) want society to reflect their social organizational ideals and designs, they would have to wrest control of society from the people who make, distribute, exchange, store, loan, and value money. This is easily possible by providing some electronic network which can make, distribute, store, loan, and value work. Should this network be an open market, then this would represent a bottom-up approach, aka: faith in the masses… In developing such a open network, social ideals should be developed, else the dominant 'vibe', will be the lowest common denominator, which on Earth is pretty damn low (consider Somalia).

Thus, I would like to suggest my algorithm: some simple ground rules for market trading of individual valuations of work. Individual valuations of work should just that: individual. The individual should not trade with groups, except when trading with a 'bona fide' constitutional community. Communities should build and maintain markets. Such an algorithm, if developed in open source format, might look like an online banking interface. Unlike trading markets, the online banking system's tally should be kept both by individuals and communities, as well as any other associations that wish to keep it: this is the foundation of an open market, with open valuations. Valuations of work can be assessed by a variety of coexisting and overlapping algorithms, both by individuals and communities. Although the initial algorithm is fundamentally simple, its implementation can be relatively complex, potentially soaking up a fair amount of a community's labor, as communities strive to verify news, provide education and bulletin boards, safety nets, infrastructure and community planning, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum. Of course, no one wants a completely community driven creativity process, and individuals would be free, by this model, to engage in trading with the markets however they wished. Individual vs. social benefit drivers are not such an issue when the vibe is high enough, thus I would suggest that these communities strive to 'raise the vibe', as a valuation of their market's agreement with the ideal of a 'high vibe' market structure.

But, of course, this is just a suggestion, an algorithm that leads to designing a supposed better society. Karl Popper often argued that bottom-up approaches to social engineering were superior to top-down approaches, and used multitudinous examples to back-up his assertions. If you understand that the social structure of society is guided by the people who make, distribute, exchange, store, loan, and assess valuations of work, then you can understand that social engineering is reflection of the valuations of that set group of people. My approach to social engineering - freeing the markets from the world of money and finance - can be thought of as a bottom-up approach, but it isn't. Instead, it is a reflection of the dominant 'vibe' of humanity, and is thus a top-down approach.
Love is always the way
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Sonik_01
Member

Post Number: 116
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Forget it!
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Ramirez
Member

Post Number: 379
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 10:19 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sitkaa,

Well that's an astute observation of the bottom line.
However it needs to be understood that presently the valuation process has become a global monopoly based on feudal thinking whereby the desired outcome is only two classes, the third (middle classes) becoming gradually disempowered and divided with portions drifting towards the upper and lower classes.

The recent series of financial bubbles (since 1970s) are designed for this purpose ..... to eliminate the American middle class as a stand alone social power base able to challence the global upper classes who run the game. After it falls the reasoning goes global dominance by the elites and social re-engineering of the masses can proceed unhindered.

So on a practical ground level what is your idea for reflecting the "dominant vibe" sufficiently from within the bulk of those who possess it ?
Also with advertising, disinformation and deception prevailing throughout the widespread corporate media, education, religion and labor movements how can such an idea be transmitted widely & powerfully enough to gain traction ?
Cheers.
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 163
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 03:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Vibes attain dominance through expression.

The same people who currently decide our currency and finance valuations also run society's infocom system - most notably Hollywood and the mainstream news and print media outlets.

Any open-source business model that includes a 'banking' scheme should address this by providing outlets for the individual's creative projects - currently translated as hosting websites, home-based videos, blogs, etc. Additionally, there are a number of other things communities can do to foster reasoned creativity, such as providing algorithms for measuring and discerning truth, highlighting insightful arguments, making available libraries, providing for educational opportunities, etc, etc. Again, communities should have a mandate to verify news/history (in the literal sense, all news is historical). In the litany of information that is created, hopefully, people will work out for themselves reasoning and vibe, the analogues of awareness-giving.

To change gears for a moment, try this exercise:
Imagine a world where wars didn't happen because nobody would fund them. A world where environmentally destructive projects, such as building huge dams in the rainforest, wouldn't happen simply because everyone (as in individuals) would value such short-sighted actions poorly, and not invest in them as a result. Maybe it is too much to ask of this planet's population, but as has been mentioned so often on this board, people have just gotta raise their vibes in a reasoned manner. This is a tenuous (and admittedly potentially chaotic) step in that direction, but it is a step that way none-the-less.

Another aside: for the people who think their own identity's development has been largely unaffected by the external forces of cultural situations, I would suggest you do abit of reading into identity formation psychology.
Love is always the way
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Johnnybalmain
Member

Post Number: 94
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi All,
I enjoy listening to talking books especially on a long drive. So I am suggesting that Billy's important works, if not all, would be a huge asset to all, if volunteers could be found to create a few masterpieces.Libravox is a great place to download free of charge audio books.
Peace John
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 181
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 09:28 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can second the book's on tape idea if anybody is interested. Is there a good way to go about this? I would be especially interested to have some of these books I can play in the car whilst driving about. Perhaps we can each record a chapter or so?
Love is always the way
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 182
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 09:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How does an open-source system determine needs in the social environment? In a manner analogous to Maslow’s hierarchy of greater needs, we grow and learn, both externally and internally in balanced measure. Should the system ever fall too far out of balance, it falls apart.

Thus we can list such social needs as transportation and infocom systems very highly on this hierarchy, just as adequate food, shelter, and healthcare should also be predominant concerns.
Were we to all get together and improve our society by producing a high speed rail system and implementing ubiquitous 'super-high speed internet', no matter the cost (because the cost would be immaterial), we could do it in a short amount of time - if we each wanted to... and if we each had control of our system of valuations.

Of course, this is coming with the incessant march of technology. It would behoove us to plan for this eventuality now. We all can build our own hierarchies, still someone has gotta be in charge. Who will it be? The rich? The power brokers? The moneymakers? Or the wise? The choice is ever ours to make.



These plans can be made subject to various scenarios or contingencies – such as how to plan if property ownership is made defunct, and how to plan if it isn’t, or how to plan if the world evolves into a police state run by Christians or Jews or white people or men or however you see it, and how to plan should we hold onto our free and fair society, or how to plan if the oil taps run dry and enough food can’t be grown for everyone, and how to plan if that contingency is surpassed, or any other contingency that you might be concerned with. Plan a drugwar-free state, or an environmentally in-touch world, plan a world healthcare system, or a social engineering algorithm leading to a brighter spiritual future.

However you see these plans, extract from them your valuations. Perhaps you will want to devote 10% of your time to building a high speed light rail system, 20% of your time to managing a community market, 30% of your time building shelters for homeless folks, and 50% of your time goofing off. Well, they are your valuations.

Or perhaps you will want to serve some covert group by casting dispersions upon other people’s valuations. Of course, in this world we are all absolutely free to do whatever we want to do, but the social repercussions cannot be avoided. These social repercussions can reverberate into many lifetimes thru vibes. Some of us choose to live a bumpy ride, and some of us choose to live a smooth one.
Love is always the way
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Creational
Member

Post Number: 397
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 09:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear John,

I highly support your suggestion. What a great source. Thanks.
http://librivox.org/

Love,
Zhila,


Thank you Billy.
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Matt
Member

Post Number: 124
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I can second the book's on tape idea if anybody is interested. Is there a good way to go about this?"

There is software applications that can easily do all that for you. The software is called "Text to Speech" software and some of them are free. Do a search or go to cnet.com to look for any free ones.
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Smukhuti
Member

Post Number: 204
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Randy Winter's tape was one of the first medium I encountered which introduced me to the Meier material. Given that Randy Winter inserted his own assertion, suggestion and inference into his tape without separating them from what actually was the cause or event, the damage to my learning was already done. Now I have to "unlearn" many things by interacting in the Forum and reading as much as translated material I could get my hands to and by machine translating some German materials.

But in spite of that, I have kept those recording (as mp3's) preserved because I still feel audio medium of distributing the essence of Meier contact notes is an excellent way to introduce a newbie. Sadly, there is no alternative to this day.

A software will only read line-by-line of the text it is given without attaching emotions to it. Don't you feel emotion to be very important in conveying a message and give stress to areas that need attention? Without emotion, listening to the essence of the notes will be a boring affair.
Salome.
Suv
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Matt
Member

Post Number: 125
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 11:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Suv,

Yes the Text to Speech software doesn't include emotions but it doesn't sound all that bad. Here is one that someone kindly did and uploaded to YouTube. Its readable (or hearable), that the main thing.

"Billy Meier - HAARP project 1/3"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnII7bp5fmY
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 185
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 09:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a list I'm working on. It is fairly redundant and unorganized yet, but still, I am curious, what do you think? Some of them are potential projects that could be taken up by any group that was truthfully and lovingly oriented, not just the FIGU crowd.


altrusitic projects:
1. Comprehensive Sustainability Planning
a. planning forum
b. open-source planning org
c. free listing of plans
d. technology planning forum
2. Community-based banking and markets
a. individually customizable assessment algorithms for valuing work
b. working with open-source designs for handheld evaluation gadgets
3. Truth assessor - a program which gathers news and information, assesses it according to individually customizable truth measures
a. previous honesty reputation of author or representative organization
b. correspondence with others sources on the same topic
c. relevance to some customizable set of concerns
4. Social engineering algorithm forum
a. identity formation forum
b. social deep structure: philosophy and self-growth
c. ideal governmental forms forum
d. ideal societal forms forum
5. open-source programming and electronic doodads design forum
a. free designs for some handheld device that kept one in constant secure contact with one's bank - the devise should constantly assess and evaluate the incoming info for corruption, constantly offering to alter its valuations of the worth of other people's work relative to your own, or to some other standard (even valuing work in terms of common currencies)
b. open-source markets design forum - trade in various currencies, support a truthful trade scheme
c. Desktop or home-based manufacturing techniques forum
d. hosting open-source programming sub-projects, such as libraries and forums
6. Forum structure forum
a. Organize forums according to an associated market
b. libraries pertinent to the forum's subject and ratings of the literature inside



Where 'going to school' means networking your way through a series of forums, 'working' means donating tallied, valued, and banked time to a specific task (generating a currency which is tradable once the markets are up and running), and 'being aware' means giving to others what they need. Where governance is determined through customizable collective agreements with social wisdom algorithms, which can be developed along the lines of love.

Much of the reason why people have a hard time thinking for themselves in the modern world is that other people (or even just algorithms) are thinking for them. This can be mitigated by:
1. developing and following a set of individually customizable universal laws
2. dependencies upon others for basic necessities should be minimized, while interdependencies should find encouragement for more complex social needs
3. constantly evolving social organizations should work (as communities) for the betterment of all with bona fide constitutions and measures of compliance

‘Independablity’ as a word is not very commonly used yet.

The kind of social structure we have is related to our collective vibe. The beauty of this system is that it throws the responsibility for the expressable vibe back onto the individual, not onto some some half-baked or covert group governance model. It encourages people to search within themselves, to think for themselves, to get in touch with their own sense of wisdom and reason.
Love is always the way
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Johnnybalmain
Member

Post Number: 95
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 01:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To All,
I utilize the text to speech programme but find the robotic voice becomes monotonous and somewhat boring. One tends to drift off and lose the concentration needed to follow the reading. Now with the use of real human voices the natural fluctuations and the use of a different voice every ten to fifteen minutes tends to aid one in keeping your attention tuned into the plot.Figu approved audio tapes created by readers is the only safe way to go about it.
It is advised that each recording has a length of ten to twenty minutes so it is easily recorded to compact discs that only have an 80 minute or less maximum recording times on them (my problem at the moment).
Peace John
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Nickm
Member

Post Number: 9
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perceive! ;-)

Oh, easy! ...

self-organizins and self-directed complex adaptative system optmization formula:

1 -Use an available duplex line as a pivot
2- Switch the plexes
3- get optimal posiion and optimal verification prcodedure.
4- Enjoy!

People like a bit of suspense ;-)


Simple! ;-)
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Nickm
Member

Post Number: 10
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(correct me if I'm wrong) ;-)
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Gaiaguysnet
Member

Post Number: 945
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 01:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is that you, Matthew?
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Matt
Member

Post Number: 127
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Is that you, Matthew?"

Hi Dyson,

Not sure if your asking me, but if you are, my first name is Mattster. (don't blame you for being confused as I know there are/were plenty of Matts, Matthews on this board.)
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Gaiaguysnet
Member

Post Number: 952
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No Matt,

I was referring to Matthew (Justin Deagle/a_jyb, etc.)

He has evidently returned, at least in spirit.

Best,
Dyson

No Dyson, Matthew has not returned. No more Matthew bashing OK? What's done is done, let's leave it alone.

Scott


(Message edited by scott on February 15, 2010)
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 190
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 06:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FIGU could start a business consultancy that specializes in providing insight into what the future could look like for neutral-positive companies. God knows those people could use the help.
Love is always the way
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 191
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 07:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just in case anyone is curious, you might perhaps be wondering how a relatively unregulated forum can market itself, doing trade with a business.

I know I can be out there, but I have bee trying to approach the answer to that, build a model that can be followed by a programmer or a group of programmers. Admittedly my sense of boolean logic is not well honed, however this system should work, and if not it is definitely closer to a fair and altruistic society than our markets current structure.

Some iteration of this sorta thing is coming whether FIGU itself implements it or not. It could be developed by a bank in Iceland, or some 14 year old game-designing kid in Thailand, or a NGO coalition of Amnesty International, Greenpeace, and Canonical, just as easily as it could be developed by a retired NSA programmer who has seen the light. (And most likely, there will be many iterations of these custom currency electronic markets.)

Yes, it is a new market structure, and yes it does alter how we all relate to one another, but you can't stop its development unless you can stop the march of technology (and the dissemination of information technology cannot be controlled as easily as you might hope). It is a selfish thing to do to try to guide its development altruistically at least in some measure.
Love is always the way
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Syn
Member

Post Number: 260
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"FIGU could start a business consultancy that specializes in providing insight into what the future could look like for neutral-positive companies. God knows those people could use the help."

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
They must find it difficult...Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather then the truth as the authority

-Gerald Massey
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Techieatwork
Member

Post Number: 59
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 02:05 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sitkaa:

I've seen your posts here for a while, maybe you've been here before me. I am surprised that you propose such a thing.

business? mate, that is what got us this far into this big mess in the first place

people run businesses to sell stuff.. usually useless stuff

as far as I know, FIGU is a non-profit

you're kidding right? ha ha, good joke (not)

business orientated mindset is selfish-in-nature, earnings-based and can only think about profit profit and more profit

have a good day or night wherever you are
--
Salome
Carlos
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 197
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 06:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We all seem to agree that creativity is a good thing. Does it matter how it comes about? Yes, I believe it does, which is why I suggested a qualifier of the (hard-to-define) neutral-positive. However, if the vibe (another currently intangible concept) is high enough, then it doesn't matter who is running the charade, the facade sloughs off. This pertains to corporate profit schemes as much as tribal ones. If the vibe is high enough, then all this deception and conflict is moot.

But for now that is a only goal worth working for: instead, the profit motive grounds most people. The profit motive promotes selfishness, while still being somewhat (and at times only barely...) progressive. Although it may not be the best model for driving societal progress (and it DEFINITELY isn't), it is the only model that we have available to us as long as we use our current economic system. Don't you like it?, then put forth some effort developing an alternative...

Regardless of who is generating profits in our society, it still needs some guidelines lain down by people wise enough to keep our society from self-destructing before we all develop some common-sense. Whether it recognizes this or not, FIGU is actually well positioned to step into the role of guidance counselor for humanity's community development.

Might I point out that I have been using specific literal terms rather than loose definitions? Even in English, meaning is important. Hopefully I have been elucidating, not just expounding, on this topic. There is a story that goes like this: when one of the Spanish explorers first landed on the shores of the New World, the local indians could not see his ship floating just offshore. It took the shaman much concentration to make it out, and once he did so, he pointed out the ship to everyone else. The idea of a huge floating palace with rigging and sails was such a paradigm switch that initially no one could even see it. Sometimes I feel like that shaman, trying to make out something so simple, but so different. (It's just an algorithm, one which can be developed by anyone.)

In case you are wondering, I don't have any intention of hijacking the purview of FIGU, or inordinately stoking a bonfire of chaotic social changes, which in turn set a drought-stricken forest aflame. Hopefully, what I proposed here is only a gentle push towards some right direction.
Love is always the way

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