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Archive through July 13, 2011

Discussionboard of FIGU » The Creation-energy Teaching » Reincarnation, Death and the Storage Banks » Archive through July 13, 2011 « Previous Next »

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Bronzedesk
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Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 05:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone taken into consideration in this scenario the ability of the soul to fragment itself in order to gain more experience in more bodies with a lesser period of time?
"Creation doesn't give us what we want! We give creation what it ultimately needs! And anyone who never has made a mistake in his whole entire life has never ever tried to do anything new."
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Ramirez
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Post Number: 606
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 03:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thankyou Jacob,

Meanwhile let's look at the maths again.

Theoretically if a spiritform could re-incarnate continually every 200 years without interruption that makes 5 per thousand.

How many thousands in a million .... 1000 so that's 1000 X 5 per million making 5,000 re-incarnations per million.

Given the quoted figures of between 60-80 million that's either 60 X 5,000=300,000 or 80 X 5,000=400,000 reincarnations .... provided the population was in sufficient balance and numbers to allow this and how are 127 billion waiting in the queue accounted for in this process ?

So just on those statistics the question arises as to how billions of re-incarnations might be considered possible.

Err Ardie,
"5,000 x 60 million years equals 300 billion according to my calculations. I hope I didn't mess it up!"

5,000 per million X 60 - 80 .... there are 60 to 80 million so it's 5,000 times 60-80.
It makes 300,000 - 400,000 in my head.

So even with a mistranslation .... it's not billions or even millions that can be squeezed into 60-80 million years and as mentioned lifespans would gradually increase & how could the planet support numbers to cycle 127 billion spiritforms ?

Tink tink, clik, clik, whirr, bzzz .... out with the calculators :-)
Cheers.
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Johnnybalmain
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Post Number: 145
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 05:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Scott,
Re your post 2154.
I personally have experienced very clear and lucid messages that seem to come from within my mind. These voice like hunches come thru at unpredictable times and only occurr when my mind is thoughtless or empty/vacant of a thought. I began to become more aware and respectful when one day I was opening the drivers door of my car and seated myself down when suddenly this voice like hunch (I think Billy described it as "first thought") came thru as clear as anything - "check the power steering fluid". I was in a hurry and dismissed it by telling myself I'll do it later. I drove 10 to 15 kls and bang my power steering failed. Immediately the thought returned and I decided then and there to be more receptive of such events.
I have become aware that these first thoughts do not happen with conscious will but only in my case when my mind is completely still and devoid of material thought.
It has happened many times in my past but now I feel fully aware of this capability after the above event must have been that epifany moment of cognizance (I hope this makes sense).
Anyway this is what I deem to be my spirit wisdom communicating with my material consciousness. Is this correct?
Peace John
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Jacob
Moderator

Post Number: 698
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 09:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have eliminated my own post 695 because it was in error.
This is the correct information:

After the 60-80 million years there is no longer a reincarnation
cycle. It is a transformation process, during the 60-80 billion years, in the state of the High Council.

Thanks to Christian Frehner.
Salome,
Jacob

Saalome gam naan ben uurda, gan njjber asaala hesporoona!
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Eddieamartin
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Post Number: 246
Registered: 08-2010
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 09:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jacob,

When Jshrjsh Semjase used the word "existence" was she referring only to course-material (reincarnating) "lives," or, was she referring to the various stages of evolution of the spirit-form?

Do we (spirit-forms) continue evolving even in the spirit level (realms)?

Should these realms also be included in the calculations since the first ultimate goal is to merge with Creation?

Salome,
Eddie
[7:-)
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Cpl
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Post Number: 554
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 08:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jacob and all,

In Contact Report 238: 664-697 we read that the human incarnations last 60 - 80 billion years rather than "millions". Then come the other incarnations in the finer half material half spiritual level, like the High Council. These also last some billions of years.

CR 238 discusses Nokodemion's lives:

"...he then entered the transitional level of the fluctuating material state at the age of 58,000,000,000 years, he created there, through spiritual potency, a further people, after which he seemingly spent precisely 2,000,000,000 years in the transitional level.
Thereafter he remained for a further 4,000,000,000 years in that level, after which he shifted in a rapid manner and entered the Arahat Athersata level, where he remained during the next 10,000,000,000 years, before he determined, as a result of the degeneration of his begotten and created peoples, and in unanimous accord with the entire Arahat Athersata level, to change himself back into a material human life form, in order in this way to command a halt to his degenerated, criminal, usurping peoples and to bring them to reason. "

http://http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Contact_Report_238

So it took Nokodemion 58 bill. + 2 bill. + 4 bill. = 64 billion years to reach the purely spirit level.

I am sure I remember reading, though cannot remember where, that Billy said that even he, as all first emerging humans, was originally a simpleminded idiot for approximately the first 1,000,000,000 years.

This does make it very difficult to conceive of "billions of lives" for humans. Perhaps there was an initial mistranslation or slip up where the reader/transcriber/translator of CR 11 jumped from one "of" to another “of” in a sentence that may have originally read “…through billions of years of existences," and the “of years” got omitted. Obviously someone from Figu with access to the original will have to confirm or refute this. The verses are not contained in the original Stevens volumes that I have.
Chris

Use to the full both your heart and your head; and never lose either.
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Borthwey
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Post Number: 230
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 11:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After 60-80 million years there is no longer a reincarnation cycle? Then how can there be, namely according to this post, human beings on Earth whose spirits are 12,000,000,000 years old?

http://forum.figu.org/us/messages/13/3545.html#POST12372

Salome
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Ardie
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Post Number: 86
Registered: 02-2000
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 08:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramirez,
Yes, I should have multiplied 5,000 by 60, not 60,000,000. oh well, I tried
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Jacob
Moderator

Post Number: 699
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Borthwey,

The Earthhumans with those spirit forms did never have their first incarnation here, nor did they came originally from this galaxy.

http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Contact_Report_238

This contact really explains the rest from 667 and up.
See it similar like this, if your body would be in hibernation for 1000 years, you would be 1000 +[current age] physically, just the aging process would be much slower during that hibernation, you would have aged much less during that time and for example just be a few years older then before you hibernated.

A funny but to the point example would be Buck Rogers, if you know that Sci-Fi series, he lifts off in the late 20th century and due to a freak accident he freezes and ends up in the year 2491.
However he is technically much older then all people of that time, his attitude is still that of the 20th century, because while he was frozen he didn't learn a thing.

A similar principle goes for those spirit forms who were kept out of the incarnation cycle for billions of years, because of Arahat Athersata, they became older, but gained no knowledge or wisdom during that time, which was an unfortunate side effect of Nokodemjon's action, but was their former personalities fault.

Also the spirit form of Nokodemjon is incarnated in a human with a material-consciousness adapted to this world, or he could not exist. (even when that material consciousness is much higher developed then anyone else on this planet)
The same principle goes for the people with ET spirit forms, they have only a fraction of their former knowledge at their command, the rest is still there, but out of their reach.

(Message edited by jacob on July 11, 2011)
Salome,
Jacob

Saalome gam naan ben uurda, gan njjber asaala hesporoona!
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Jacob
Moderator

Post Number: 700
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eddiemartin,

Yes, evolution keeps going on in the pure spiritual levels up to the Creation itself.
In the pure spirit levels its not reincarnation but transition of one pure spirit level to the next. Our spiritual evolution as a spirit comes to a conclusion when we merge with the Creation where the Creation evolves further.
Salome,
Jacob

Saalome gam naan ben uurda, gan njjber asaala hesporoona!
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Borthwey
Member

Post Number: 231
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 05:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It all makes sense, Nokodemion took 64 billion years to reach the Arahat Athersata level, then it stayed there for 10 billion years before returning. As Ptaah says later on contact 238, it (the spirit form) is now 86 billion years old. 86-64-10=12, which means that Nokodemion returned from the AA level to begin a new series of incarnations 12 billion years ago. That is therefore, and as corroborated on my previous link, the age of the oldest spiritform on Earth. Counting not from the first, but from its second cycle of incarnations.

(Message edited by indi on July 11, 2011)
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Borthwey
Member

Post Number: 232
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 04:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I am sure I remember reading, though cannot remember where, that Billy said that even he, as all first emerging humans, was originally a simpleminded idiot for approximately the first 1,000,000,000 years."

I haven't read anything like that on any of the translated materials, at least.

It's not very encouraging to think that Nokodemion's personalities were "simpleminded idiots" for the first billion years, that would mean that the average earthling by the same progression, would not go past that evolution level for another 995,5 million years. The Earth will become unable to suport life long before that.

Maybe Nokodemion's first incarnations were much more spaced in time than the ones of the Earth-bound spiritforms...
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Borthwey
Member

Post Number: 233
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jacob,

Sure, the age of a spiritform is not necessarily indicative of a predetermined level of development. That's why different spirits reach the pure spirit levels at different times.

As for this, " The same principle goes for the people with ET spirit forms, they have only a fraction of their former knowledge at their command, the rest is still there, but out of their reach.", could you please explain? Does this have to do with impulses from the storage banks, or with something else? Why would the storage banks be only partially functional?

David
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Redbeard
Member

Post Number: 202
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Scott,

In regard to your mention of feelings that you have and where do they originate, I have recently been using the meditation, one of the twelve which states: "Truly, there is no opposition to my successes, also not in my thoughts, not in my imagination, and also not in my feelings." This seems to indicate a direct steering of elimination of feelings that stand in the way of progress of success.

As success here is objective and of course personalized for each person specifically we still all share wayward thinking and related feelings, but sometimes I will have intense feelings of anxiousness or tension that I catch myself experiencing and at once analyze to see if these are related to anything that I should be concerned about and or necessary.

I think that feelings are difficult to pin down as pure logic based transfer of information that would seem at least to be in this form in or from the storage banks. If a person is pondering a problem or questioning within self to solve a puzzling situation then perhaps realizations may come through but I don't think that feelings would be the pathway but might accompany a moment of realization of truth.

Just a thought as I find that most of my better handling of life is when I'm unrushed and contemplative, even in the most hectic of life's busyness. Pausing and pondering in mid-steam?!
Peace, Matt
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Ramirez
Member

Post Number: 607
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 12:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Borthwey,

""I am sure I remember reading, though cannot remember where, that Billy said that even he, as all first emerging humans, was originally a simpleminded idiot for approximately the first 1,000,000,000 years."

I haven't read anything like that on any of the translated materials, at least.

It's not very encouraging to think that Nokodemion's personalities were "simpleminded idiots" for the first billion years, that would mean that the average earthling by the same progression, would not go past that evolution level for another 995,5 million years. The Earth will become unable to suport life long before that.

Maybe Nokodemion's first incarnations were much more spaced in time than the ones of the Earth-bound spiritforms..."

**************************************************

Looks like someone might have added an extra 3 zeros to this figure if you examine it logically.

We know earth born spiritforms arrived in two main batches ..... about 4.5 million years ago Cro magnon man, then about 1.5 million years ago Neanderthal man so it was these folks who occupied a body for the first time and formed the foundations for pure homegrown terrestrial humans of which most of the 127 billion in the queue are composed of.

However what you see on average today are not idiots, hulking brutes waving sticks and simpletons, well maybe with the exception of some folks who do seemingly display regressive and hostile tendencies so that might answer the one million VS one billion years question.

The earth has not existed for 1 billion years with surface conditions capable of supporting human life ..... rather somewhere over 20 million years. I believe the first ET colonists came around 22 million years ago and found the place rather severe. Did the dinos really die out 65 million years ago ? How was it then ?
The history of terrestrial spiritforms started in low millions not billions of years ago and we now see over 8 billion humans going about their lives .... it must have started not that long ago in relative terms.

So unlike the cardinals we should look through the telescope, examine our observations with an open mind to determine what is actually out there and make conclusions based on ..... evidence.

Books are fine but these can be limited and limiting, contain errors, mistranslations and restrictions based on inaccuracies which exist or have been added for one reason or another or many reasons combined.
Cheers.
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Borthwey
Member

Post Number: 234
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 03:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ramirez

Yes, being just the first million years rather than the first billion seems more likely than Nokodemion's incarnations having been a thousand times more spaced than ours.

Relatively primitive as we may be, simpleminded idiots has a more specific meaning which is better suited to describe the earliest humans. To us they would look more like smart apes than real humans.
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Scott
Moderator

Post Number: 2155
Registered: 12-1999
Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,

Without going too far off topic, Christian mentioned an "unconscious" thought. If we have thoughts which we are not aware of, which then trigger feelings, how can we become aware of these unconscious thoughts in order to control them?

Scott
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Borthwey
Member

Post Number: 235
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Scott

I don't think that one should focus on eliminating the unconscious thoughts.

Rather, just becoming aware of the feelings triggered by them and of any thoughts triggered by these feelings is enough to bring the unconscious into consciousness.

The whole process would just represent an opportunity to know oneself better, through introspection.
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Ramirez
Member

Post Number: 608
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Scott,

These are usually triggered via associations with past events ..... a reaction ... but the underlying cause and or past event itself lies submerged and cannot be normally recognised or seen as the cause for the thought or pattern of thoughts which can become reflex actions.

Sometimes disturbing past events were rather traumatic and the conscious mind erects a blockade (repression) in order to protect the ego. It's a normal mental strategy otherwise persons who have experienced unpleasant events would be continually nagged by memories of them to such a point that it would interfere with daily life .... as it does with some persons.

Also such past events need not be traumatic in the normal sense which might include violence but can be relatively insignifigant and a good example is provided by Marian who expressed her disappointment at being given dolls as presents instead of a trainset :-) It's relative and subjective. Some people are traumatised by not being given a Porsche for their birthday whilst others by having to endure the same repetitious family meal menu each day.

With these traumatic or disturbing events an energy (vibrational) residue remains in the subconscious part of the mind until resolved and neutralized. It's like a hard drive containing malware, viruses, unwanted programs which interfere with the smooth running of the system.

They run in the background requiring efforts to discover.

How can we recognise these thoughts and their origin ? meditation, psychology including self analysis and or ..... a psychologist - psychiatrist or even energy healers - shamans some of whom are quite adept at dealing with such issues even though they have no formal qualifications or diplomas.

Does Billy have a prophet's diploma ?

Who says he is qualified to be what he claims ? well maybe his space buddies and a few other persons who know him or have read his works.
It's self evident however those who have released themselves by some degree from the influence of subconscious influences (like religion) are in a better position to appreciate evidence from a neutral positive perspective.

Not always easy to do depending on what sort of experiences one might have had throughout life but pays off after some effort.
Cheers.
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Michael_horn
Member

Post Number: 420
Registered: 07-2009
Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 06:45 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the answer is by deliberately paying more and more attention to...our thoughts. That process can bring awareness of some of what is otherwise remaining unconscious.
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Sitkaa
Member

Post Number: 502
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Christian mentioned an "unconscious" thought. If we have thoughts which we are not aware of, which then trigger feelings, how can we become aware of these unconscious thoughts in order to control them?"
-Scott

I see a thoughtfield as like an ocean of waves wherein we are aware of the surface. We have many thoughts, many waves bouncing about,
some deep,
some steep,
some fast and furious
some pensive or curious
and even then rogue thought waves may unexpectedly spring up from outa nowhere, comprised of multiple thought waves that fortuitously happen to align.

These interactions collectively make up a thoughtfield, or in this case the surface of an ocean of thought.

To expand the analogy, depending upon how calm and clear the ocean's surface is, and upon how objectively focused our insight is, we may be able to see down into the water to a depth of a few hundred feet.

To reiterate:
With a meditation to calm (put to peace), the thought processes,
laid upon a bed of constantly practiced deliberate thinking to clear (innocent, sincere) the thoughts,
objectify the 'I' without preconceived thinking (simple awareness).

Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't confess that I do not follow this path so closely. Caveat lector... and good luck : )
Fur leben.
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Eddieamartin
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Post Number: 251
Registered: 08-2010
Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would have to agree with Michael Horn on meditation.

My thought on this subject is this: An unconscious thought, which triggers or influences our thought processing, behaviors and moment by moment decisions would require some degree of mastery of the brain activities in order for us to be fully aware of its influence. This can only be accomplished through concentration exercises and then graduating to meditation correct?

The subtlety of subconscious influences during everyday decision making moments, prejudices (likes & dislikes) and wants and desires at any given moment would be tell-tale signs of such subconscious thoughts. If we can learn to listen to our feelings towards something, or a decision for example, we may be able to recognize these unconscious thoughts.

Salome,
Eddie
[7:-)
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Alagna
New member

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 06:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Scott,

I have been following this discussion and I would like to add my two cents. In the last round of questions to Billy -- Answered, in my opinion there was a very remarkable answer, at least for me. At one point Billy’s answer goes, “Creation is not "a thought energy", but a "geistenergetische Impulskraft". Creation pulsates and impulsates.” To me this means that consciousness in general, whether we are talking material consciousness, spiritual consciousness, or the Universal Consciousness is a product of being impulsed and its pulsation on everything else.

We learn from Billy that Creation is infinite, therefore consciousness in general must be “pulsating and impulsating” on an infinite spectrum -- from lower levels (non-values) to higher levels (with spiritual values). And since Creation is mostly spiritual energy, the non-values only exist in the one material belt out of the seven belts. In other words we might say, “it’s all good.”

So your question from before, “Do impulses from the storage banks cause feelings within material consciousness of a person, or are these just hunches or ideas which one chooses to act or not act upon? Sometimes I get feelings which I can't understand where they are coming from…”

So where are they (feelings) coming from? In my humble opinion, this can be very difficult to tell since our material consciousness must have numerous things that are impulsing us in the vastness of the Creation. However, I do think that there are factors that play a huge role (subconscious We-Form), and other factors like star-light, as a silly example, that play a lesser role. Let me try to explain myself a little clearer. And please be patient everybody because all this is my opinion based on my Figu understanding.

From what I’ve learned from the Figu material – here are some things that can influence our thoughts:

1. the “storage banks,” which you mentioned. As I understand it, the storage banks are the accumulated wisdom from numerous lives on Earth. So then impulses from the storage banks would have to be of spiritual value to our material consciousness. So if being impulsed by the banks has spiritual value then the thoughts from being impulsed could not be of non-value (for example: hate, jealousy, greed, fear, etc.,) to your material concousness. So if these particular hunches ideas, or feelings seem to conclude to a spiritual lesson/realization, it is possible you harmonized (remember you are pulsing and being impulsed as a system -- so you would have to be thinking about spiritual ideas in the first place.)

2. our subconscious, which has been mentioned here. It has been my understanding from Figu, that consciousness is also a we-form; and I understand this to mean that we are all connected, we are one with the Creation. So at the subconscious level, unlike our (seemingly) personal conscious level, it must be like an open mic that is broadcasting what we thinking, as well as being a receiver -- picking up the radio show around us. So impulses that are all over the place, when we consider spiritual value vs. non-value, must be a huge part of our subconscious world. So unless you were around Billy at the SSSC, it is likely that the impulses you are getting from the people around you would contain lesser spiritual value. So as my theory goes, if your hunch or idea seems like nonsense, you might conclude that the stray ideas (harmonization) is coming from someone that you are around, and is also a clue to what is ‘behind your mind’ too.

And of course having a disciplined mind that has been an observer of thoughts is the only way anybody could have a clue about detecting stray thoughts or unusual ones in the first place. So hunting down sources is no easy task. But I’m sure Scott you are definitely up to the challenge.

Best regards,
Anthony

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