| Author |
Message |
   
Magic_pie
Member
Post Number: 30
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - 03:20 pm: | 
|
Hi All,
We hear that a lot in the spirit teaching, that it is important for us to be responsible in finding the truth for ourselves. But what does that mean? How do we find the truth for ourselves? Don't we need an authority figure to tell us the truth so that we then know it?
Here is a funny example. "How Home Depot can help you understand how to find your own truth."
Let's say you want to do a home project that requires some lumber. So you go down to your local Home Depot (lumber yard store) to buy some 2x4s. And in order for your project to fit together nicely, you of course will need to pick out some boards that are straight or 'true.' You can't work with crooked pieces of lumber, otherwise your project will be a much greater challenge.
So your goal is to pick out some nice boards that are true. So what do you do? Do you ask the Home Depot guy which boards are true? You can. But you still might then NOT understand what a true piece of lumber is; and you are hoping that the Home Depot guy knows the truth.
So what is the best way? Of course, do it yourself; become proficient in finding the boards that are true.
And in order to know if the boards are true, one has to first be educated on what to look for; so you might take the responsibility to familiarize yourself with a reputable "How to Guide" on the subject. Then you take that knowledge back to your local Home Depot; and you wheel up your shopping wagon to the pile of 2x4s. You learned that you need to grab the board by one end and look down the plane. Look to see if the piece of lumber is warped, bent, crooked, bowed, knotted or otherwise NOT 'true' to being a strait board to work with. And you are turning this board to see 'all the sides' to make sure you are seeing the piece of lumber in its entirety. You are going to even flip to board around and look at the angles from the 'opposite side' to see that perspective, in order to make your final assessment. And when you have diligently looked at the 2x4, you can then tell for yourself if it is true.
Is this process really any different for any other thing we might want to learn "the truth" about?
Cheers,
Anthony |
Indi
Moderator
Post Number: 748
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 03:54 am: |
|
Hi Anthony
Through the processes and application of logic and reasoning with the facts presented in any situation, one can reach a conclusion that is in line with truth. One must be able to clearly see with unbiased perception and viewing, that the premises one uses to form a logical conclusion as truth, are in fact true, thus providing one with a valid conclusion.
This small verse from the OM explains this view:
OM, Kanon 20:38 Denn es ist dem Menschen entschwunden die Gesinnung der Bemühung, dass die Wahrheit soll erarbeitet werden durch eigene Kraft des Denkens und Forschens und Erkennens. 39. Also hat er sich gewandelt in der Form zum Irren, dass er nur noch das annehmen will als Wahrheit, das er mit seinen Händen berühren kann, und das er mit seinen Augen sehen kann, und das er mit seinen Ohren hören kann. 40. Es ist dies aber der Weg der Falschheit und des reinen Materiellen, der jeder Bemühung des Selbstdenkens, des Selbstfühlens, des Selbstforschens, des Selbstsuchens und der Selbsterkennung jeglicher Lösung und Wahrheit Hohn spricht und spottet. 41. Also ist nicht gegeben dadurch der Weg zur Erforschung der Wahrheit und der Findung der Wahrheit, weshalb durch den JHWH und durch den Propheten keine Zeichen oder nur sehr sparsam Zeichen gegeben sein sollen, die da von der Wahrheit zeugend sind. 42. Gegeben ist das Wort der Wahrheit, und dieses ist genügsam vollauf, um die Lehren der Wahrheit zu offenbaren für jene, die da sind willig, die Mühsal der Erlernung durch eigene Kraft anzugehen und zu tragen.
The Earth human’s sense of effort towards seeking the truth has disappeared. He has lost the inclination to seek the truth through his inherent power of thinking, searching and recognizing. Therefore he has turned to the erroneous form of thinking, that he will only accept as true that which he can touch with his hands and that which he can see with his eyes and that which he can hear with his ears. But this is the false, purely material way, which mocks and scorns any effort of self-thinking, self-feeling, self-searching, self-seeking and self-recognition for every solution and truth. Therefore through this, the way to the searching for the truth, and the finding of the truth, is not provided. And so, through the JHWH and the Prophet, no signs, or only sparse signs, should be given, that testify to the truth. The word of truth is given, and this is wholly sufficient to reveal the teaching of the truth for any who are willing to make and to bear the effort of learning through their own power.
Salome
Robyn
Denken Sie für sich selbst!
|
Magic_pie
Member
Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 01:33 pm: |
|
Hi Robyn,
Yeah, you're right; we don't need that "How to Book" after all. Anybody can see for themselves, if they take the responsibility to do so, through a process of observation and logic, what is crooked and what is true.
And speaking of "sparse signs." One of the things that attracts me to the Meier case is that it is like a puzzle. It is fun to take the information, clues, hints, 'what is not said' and try to put the jigsaw together.
And in my opinion, Billy and the Plejaren might have given us too much. The vast Figu library may be giving people the wrong impression that this is all about reading. For example, instead of going down to their local Home Depots, the English speakers cry and cry for more translations, as if there is not enough already to last several lifetimes of thinking!!! These people must think that the "answer" or "understanding" is in that untranslated Figu book right around the corner. And then once that new book gets translated, still not confident and independent, they are sure it is the next book to be translated. Just give me one Figu book, anyone of them, and I can study it over and over and over again and keep taking what I learned into the field. I will find the answer eventually!
Best regards,
Anthony
------------
I think you have hit the nail on the head Anthony!
(Message edited by indi on August 29, 2013) |
Celesco
Member
Post Number: 42
Registered: 01-2013
| | Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2013 - 01:36 pm: |
|
I suppose that this behaviour might mirror the lack of richness contained in the English translations since what is perhaps sought by English speaking students is the rejuvenation and refreshment of the psyche. Having studied the English translation of some of the lessons in no particular order, I have found myself intrigued in an academic sense, and likewise able to put some of the very basic knowledge into practice, yet the rejuvenation can scarcely be found since the lessons sound dull and lackluster in English, no matter how accurate they might be.
It is ironic, then, that what they seek is, in fact, contained only within the grasping of the original German text - however this is exactly opposite to the patient endeavour to wait for another English translation to come out. |
Magic_pie
Member
Post Number: 49
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Monday, September 16, 2013 - 08:50 am: |
|
Hello C,
The way to learning this stuff is to treat it like an academic endeavor. You are somewhat on the right track.
I'm sure most everybody here went to school. The teacher would give you a textbook, and then have you read it. Once the class had read their assignment, it is discussed among the students. Questions arise, comments are submitted, and the process of learning is happening. Usually, there are quizzes and exams; and any sincere student who goes through the process ends up learning something.
WHY, WHY, WHY, Figu people is this so hard to fathom? In my opinion, it is a shame Figu places so much emphasis on German as "the only way." I can get from point A to point B in a brand new shinny Mercedes auto or a smashed up Chevy truck!!!!!! This misunderstanding of the role of German is holding humanity back!!!! If people would just put themselves on a simple lesson plan (in any language), like they did in frick'n school, they would be LEARNING this stuff big time.
Regards,
Anthony |
Celesco
Member
Post Number: 44
Registered: 01-2013
| | Posted on Monday, September 16, 2013 - 08:56 pm: |
|
(Note for moderators: Please upload this post to the forum, rather than the previous one I submitted which is nearly identical. I edited it slightly in an attempt to make my message more clear and straightforward.)
I do not mean to imply that there can be no learning progress unless the lessons are studied in German; rather, I see that there is a broad difference between the German and English languages in terms of how they convey the material itself. This carries strong implications for the reader because the tone and level of excitement of the author, or the lack thereof, is what contributes to the rejuvenation of the psyche and, subsequently, to the rate of success when it comes to putting the material into practice.
Consider this parable, wherein two different teachers attempt to teach their respective pupils about the complexities and nuances involved in the art of oil painting. (I realize that I may be considered pretentious for this, but do not think that I am attempting to place myself above you - rather, I simply wish to convey a message to you, which is easier to do using an analogy.)
One teacher uses a rigid textbook in order to rehearse rote and standardized procedure to his pupil, who, in turn, stares at his canvas with a blank, disinterested gaze throughout the entire lesson. When he is called upon to paint, he possesses the knowledge of various brushstrokes and techniques, but he cares little to put them into practice. As a result, he drags his paintbrush lazily around the canvas with no intent to produce anything of meaningful value, and his work suffers as a result. Likewise, painting leaves him feeling exhausted so that, erroneously attributing his apathy to a lack of interest, he decides that he will abandon the hobby after the lesson is done. In this case, the student possesses accurate knowledge, but he lacks inspiration due to the monotonous nature of the lesson, so that it takes a great effort of will to put the knowledge into practice - and, likewise, all of the work that he attempts to produce becomes lazy and half-arsed as a result of his complete lack of excitement. It is plain as day to see that there is little to no effort that has gone into his brushstrokes, which becomes like a permanent, invisible stain upon the canvas. Others feel jaded and apathetic when they look at it.
Meanwhile, the other teacher uses rich personal anecdotes, vivid expressions, and consequently conveys a sense of eager playfulness to his pupil while additionally conveying the exact same material. The knowledge conveyed is identical, however his pupil feels energized throughout the entire lesson, and cannot wait to put the lesson into practice. He can already imagine potential outcomes of his brushstrokes as his instructor relates various techniques to him, and when it is time to paint, his brush seems to be guided by a benevolent force as soon as it touches the canvas. His work is not technically magnificent because he is a novice, but he feels even more energized upon its completion than he did when he started - and, likewise, although the end result of his energized brushstrokes is not "perfect", he has expressed his personality in a vibrant, blissful manner that leaves him eager to paint again, and which also leaves him thirsty for even more knowledge. Additionally, it is plain as day to see that there is joy in his process, so that the final canvas exudes an aura of peace and self-fulfillment, which, in turn, brings joy to others when they gaze upon it as well.
In this parable, the painting lesson is analogous to the Spiritual Teaching, meanwhile the act of painting itself is the execution of the spiritual principles. The bland instructor embodies the English translation of the FIGU material, which spreads accurate information albeit in an uninspiring capacity; meanwhile, the invigorating instructor embodies the original German text, which conveys a sense of vividness, urgency, and excitement in Billy's own words - in other words straight from the goblet of truth, as is accurately the case. Although the information is identical (or nearly so) in both formats, one form of instruction yields so much more success than the other because imparting excitement, inspiration, and motivation is always the responsibility of the teacher (in this case, BEAM) and not the responsibility of the neutral information which they are attempting to teach. Lastly, the impression on the canvas is analogous to the ripple effect of our actions as human beings, since actions partaken in joy create joy in others, meanwhile actions partaken in resentment breeds similar negative feelings in others. So you see, there is even more power in how we become enlivened by the Spirit Lessons, rather than in how we simply come to grasp them in an academic sense that is devoid of positive or negative feelings.
Not many people are familiar with this fact because it is not taught in public schools, but optimal learning always creates energy, motivation, and a sense of excitement, rather than consuming energy in laborious struggles of focus and attention as is the case among the majority of academic scholars, teachers, universities, and colleges as well as is the case in most homes. Likewise, true optimal learning inspires people to act immediately, rather than requiring a great force of will to remember to put the material into practice - and yet putting the material into successful practice in order to bring about change toward the good, and toward the better, is the whole purpose of the Spiritual Teaching, is it not?
With all of that being said, I agree wholeheartedly that there is still much to learn from the English translations - certainly more than I, as an individual, could even hope to scratch the surface of in a single lifespan. In fact, I reckon that it is for this reason that the English translations have been allowed to come into existence. Yet I similarly hypothesize that this lack of vividness and mystery is what drives the English speaking students to cry out for more translated works since the promise of mysterious fulfillment cannot be found in the watered down truth - yet, ironically, the nourishment that they seek cannot be found in the translated text that they yearn for, even though a huge body of knowledge most certainly abounds. |
Magic_pie
Member
Post Number: 50
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - 06:50 am: |
|
Hey C,
What's up with the long, long post? I finished with a couple of small paragraphs. Plus dude, I think you are very rude for not addressing my name in your posts. This is like some superiority thing. Now I'm turned off by you.
Goodbye |
Magic_pie
Member
Post Number: 51
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - 12:17 pm: |
|
"Although the information is identical (or nearly so) in both formats, one form of instruction yields so much more success than the other because imparting excitement, inspiration, and motivation is always the responsibility of the teacher (in this case, BEAM)"
This human being who spoke these words could not be more wrong. IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE FK'N STUDENT. STUDENT. STUDENT. STUDENT. STUDENT. STUDENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Celesco
Member
Post Number: 45
Registered: 01-2013
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - 03:56 pm: |
|
Sorry, I did not mean any offense by it, since I see a forum as similar to a group conversation where there is less emphasis on addressing each other by name. I also am not specifically attacking you or anybody with my post, which is why I left out your name, but rather attempting to address the topic that you raised since you raised it in a loud, aggressive tone that insulted the intelligence and the understanding of FIGU members by claiming that emphasis on the German language is holding humanity back. This is not a correct assessment of the situation, but I did not want to simply say that since there is scarcely any opportunity to understand why this is so if I had taken that route.
You have claimed superiority to everybody in FIGU by making this aggressive statement about the fruitlessness of emphasizing the importance of the German text (which is akin to saying that you know better than everybody else who has stated otherwise repeatedly). This could potentially cause a well-meaning student to abandon the mission of learning German since your opinion was expressed very loudly and with apparent frustration, which easily whips people up into a similar frenzy so that they take your side without actually reasoning anything through. To stand up for the truth in the best way that I know how, I attempted to show you why you were misunderstood in a peaceful manner that is devoid of personal attacks on your character. It is a long post because I wrote a parable about it to get my meaning across, yet nowhere in my post is there a personal attack towards you or anybody else. Similarly, the post was not addressed to anybody because anybody can read it, and the parable is intended to be universally applicable to humans.
I have said that I agree with you that there is still much knowledge to be obtained from studying the lessons in any language, but I see that it is important to understand the significance of the original German text, since there is power in the original text and it is not simply a preference or bias thing in order to waste everybody's time. This is what I intended to get across, and no more. |
Celesco
Member
Post Number: 46
Registered: 01-2013
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - 04:24 pm: |
|
Please know that I am not very familiar with this style of expressing ideas, as well - which is to say I have rarely attempted to form an analogy about a thought before, in order to make the message more clear. In this instance the analogy just came to me, and so I ran with it, with the only sacrifice perhaps being it takes a bit more time to read it.
I am doing the best I can, and I am not looking to make enemies here; however, you insult my character by calling me, the individual, rude - and in this way you seem to intend to make a mockery of me, which is the actual rude behaviour since I made no attempt to make a mockery of you whatsoever. |
Matt
Member
Post Number: 359
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 06:35 am: |
|
Hey Magic_pie,
I think it's going a bit far to suggest that it is very rude for someone not addressing someone else in their posts. (especially if it is a one of) It happens regularly and generally people don't mean it anyway. Imo, not nice would be the most that one can say. |
Magic_pie
Member
Post Number: 53
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 01:24 pm: |
|
Hiya Matt,
"Rude" rhymes with "Dude." If I used "not nice," I'd had to say something like. "Hey Spice, that is not nice."
Just a choice of lyrics, ya see;) Even if I slap someone, doesn't mean I don't love them.
Cheers!
Anthony |
Magic_pie
Member
Post Number: 54
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 01:31 pm: |
|
"...I left out your name, but rather attempting to address the topic that you raised since you raised it in a loud, aggressive tone that insulted the intelligence and the understanding of FIGU members by claiming that emphasis on the German language is holding humanity back. This is not a correct assessment of the situation..."
To the human who said that, "hahahahaha." I just hope Figu gets the frick'n message. I'm going Liam Gallagher on these nice German folk until I see these forum members independent and finding the answers on their own. I can do it!!!!! And I can barely speak fk'n English. |
Celesco
Member
Post Number: 47
Registered: 01-2013
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 01:52 pm: |
|
Hey Anthony,
What causes you to reason that the responsibility of creating inspiration, motivation, and excitement is the responsibility of the student? Is it possible that you are referring to perseverance and openness, which is absolutely the responsibility of the student to maintain? I am open to the notion that I am not correct about this matter, but you will need to provide evidence for your reasoning instead of screaming at me. |
Magic_pie
Member
Post Number: 55
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 07:20 pm: |
|
Hey Celesco,
I knew you could do it. I just knew you could treat me like a fellow human being.
Okay, my friend. The issue is SELF-RESPONSIBILITY. This is a core of the spirit teaching. Please mate, read the "Might of the Thoughts." Things like "enthusiasm" are not created by outside forces. Everything is to be self-created.
People should not expect Billy, for example, to provide them with the inspiration, motivation or excitement to learn. YOU have to create this inside yourself whether you are reading Billy or the instruction manual to your new toaster oven.
Cheers!!!
Anthony |
Celesco
Member
Post Number: 48
Registered: 01-2013
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 07:14 am: |
|
You are not understanding what I meant, and you don't seem to care to even make an effort to do so, which leads me to question whether you are one of the ones who are here just to make learning a difficult and hazardous procedure by planting landmines everywhere so that others become afraid to speak freely. Please do not call me your friend because you have done nothing but scream at me in response to my posts, insult me, and throw vicious temper tantrums - then you talk condescendingly to me as if I am the last moronic horse to cross the finish line, meanwhile disregarding the fact that you have been screaming like a banshee this whole time. Your niceness reeks of false sincerity and hollow platitudes, and I am not going to attempt to make myself clear again since you will not show me any decency and respect, evidently, unless you feel as though you have the upper hand.
You should not clap condescendingly to others for "treating you like a human being" when you scarcely seem capable of doing this yourself without resorting to cruelty and condescension.
Likewise, you haven't provided me with any critical thoughts of your own and you point to Billy's own translated words as if it suffices to point and say, "I'm right and you're wrong because of that". Explain yourself in your own damn words, and don't hide behind Billy's. |
Celesco
Member
Post Number: 49
Registered: 01-2013
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 09:46 am: |
|
Blah... truly, I have gotten so upset that I do not know what to think anymore. I feel that you are not understanding my meaning correctly because we are now debating about it, and I feel like we are both right about different things under the same umbrella term of where "enthusiasm" comes from. But, well, the word is so all-encompassing that I cannot convey the kind of nuance that I need to get my point across. Plus I ended up insulting your character and making untrue claims about it, as well, and thereby making myself into a fool. For that I am remorseful, and I extend my apologies to you. |
Celesco
Member
Post Number: 50
Registered: 01-2013
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 12:51 pm: |
|
Having thought about it, when I accused you of not knowing how to treat another human as a human being, truly it was a projection of my own anger and degenerated feelings and I do not know what thoughts you are capable or incapable of. |
Celesco
Member
Post Number: 51
Registered: 01-2013
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 05:09 pm: |
|
It also occurred to me that it is not my place to spread an accusation about you as a trouble-maker, Anthony - those words, too, were said during a state of anger and distrust. I realize that I cannot take back what was said, but I would like to mop up the mess as best as I am able to, so that rumors about your character will not begin to circulate around the forum.
You are not a trouble-maker from my knowledge, and it was highly inappropriate of me to associate you with such a label.
Can you forgive me for acting cruelly? |
Celesco
Member
Post Number: 52
Registered: 01-2013
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 05:15 pm: |
|
Also... when I read your words, I was inclined to perceive them as being much more hostile than they perhaps were, since it is part of my personality to be quite sensitive to slight phrases. So the reeking of your words is not accurate, either, and is instead another cruel assertion on my part because of my anger. (Sorry for the many posts in a row, but I made a mess with the last angry post that I left.) |
Magic_pie
Member
Post Number: 57
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 06:12 pm: |
|
Celesco,
Yes I forgive you. But I have read the "Might of the Thoughts." Have you? Have you studied the spirit teaching for a number of years or just a few weeks? I have studied the Meier material for almost 20 years. I may not be the intellectual, librarian, translator, bookworm type, but I might just know something after all this study. I do my best to try and provide something that no one else has said. I don't take the easy road; and going where no one else goes also means that I make more mistakes too.
I don't care about my reputation on this forum or with the Figu. I have been doing this forum since the beginning. I have been ignored, banned, hit with low star ratings (i miss the stars btw. I always knew I was making a difference when I would get numerous 1-star votes), and greatly misunderstood.
And Celesco, you are missing my approach. It is not just banshee... it is also compassion, understanding, teaching, example setting, and a little comedy. My life is the spirit teaching; but I do not always agree with the Figu rules and some of their views. I speak my mind. I'm not trying to win a popularity contest on this forum or with Figu or Billy. I am hoping that my "pushing the envelope" is contributing to some sort of understanding that did not exist before.
I am not your enemy. I am your friend, even if you don't consider me one.
All the best,
A |
Markcampbell
Member
Post Number: 847
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2013 - 01:37 am: |
|
Celesco , you communicate in an adult manner which is the only option , in my opinion , to regard this information with .To me,it makes no difference how well you have researched the material , if you are relevant to the material in your statements and questions .Many people come to this table with natural clarity , and you seem to be one .
You should not be overly self conscious about simple returns when provoked . We're sitting at typewriters. When someone contempts you , you feel a little shame for responding at all .I respect that , however , a sharp intercession , and a move on is appropriate . I have no criticisms for anyone anymore .My realization of equalization , is that the person who is pulling your strings / pushing your buttons of anger is just learning at their own pace , and forgets the old world manners , which is not unexpected these days .
I can meet nastiness with neutrality . It took a while ,I assure you . I thank those who try me . But please, not in person ; I might get all Liam Neeson on ya .
Kind Reagrds , Mark |
Magic_pie
New member
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2013 - 09:41 pm: |
|
Mark,
Honestly mate, WTF have you learned in all these years? You are about as stagnant as a puddle of water. How dare you assume I'm playing games with C. You are the reason I have no interest in being a Figu member. Christ, you people need to learn how to frick'n observe.
Kind regards,
A |
|
