| Author |
Message |
   
Tat_tvam_asi
Member
Post Number: 1525
Registered: 04-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, October 31, 2020 - 06:13 am: | 
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Welcome to our Forum, Matthew.
I do not know Gibram's The Prophet either.
But I think that Eddie, Niko, Kenneth and Michelle expressed quite well what makes love so unique.
Bill |
Felinity
Member
Post Number: 100
Registered: 09-2019
| | Posted on Saturday, October 31, 2020 - 07:54 am: |
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Happy Halloween, Matthew!
I found this today from The Way to Live, page 96, 145):
May the human being's striving and will always be directed onto the path of the duty and its fulfilment as well as at the evolution, so that the sense of the life prospers and the self-responsibility is practised and fulfilled to the last iota.
Salome, Belinda |
Phi_spiral
Member
Post Number: 89
Registered: 04-2020
| | Posted on Saturday, October 31, 2020 - 08:41 am: |
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Matthew_cicchini: "I realized that Billy has incorporated the words from the famous spiritual poet Kahlil Gibran and his philosophy on love in verse 60. Gibran’s prose poetry work The Prophet,..."
Hi Matt. I read Gibran's "The Prophet" when I was in college and again from time to time periodically over the years. Kahlil Gibran, along with Rumi are my two favorite poets of that genre.
Here is a nice quote that Rumi wrote about love:
“The way you make love is the way God will be with you, until your eyes constantly exhale love as effortlessly as your body yields its scent.” 17. “Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.”
Love has been the most favorite muse for poets throughout the centuries. Since Billy did travel extensively in the Middle East and is well read, he quite likely could have read, The Prophet. However, it would be difficult to assign inspiration when you take into consideration how a person is influenced subconsciously from impulses of the storage banks from countless past lives. Who knows, Kahlil Gibran himself just as likely could have been influenced from something written by one of the incarnations of the Billy/Nokodemion/Henok spirit form when he wrote The Prophet; something that filtered through subconsciously.
Just my two cents.
Regards
Bob |
Kenneth
Member
Post Number: 1228
Registered: 04-2013
| | Posted on Saturday, October 31, 2020 - 09:59 am: |
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Bob (Phi_spiral),
I like your  worth.
"Kahlil Gibran himself just as likely could have been influenced from something written by one of the incarnations of the Billy/Nokodemion/Henok spirit form when he wrote The Prophet"
Very interesting thought.
Best Regards
Kenneth |
Jokubas_stalmokas
Member
Post Number: 101
Registered: 01-2011
| | Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2020 - 02:49 am: |
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I agree with Phi Spiral. Every poet or people of any other occupation build themselves up first by getting inspirations or learning from foundations layed out by generations before them. That's how progress is furthered. That is the way of life and evolution. |
Matthew_cicchini
New member
Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2016
| | Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2020 - 01:46 pm: |
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Thanks for the warm welcome and insightful responses everyone.
Eddiemartin: Indeed, understanding the diametrically opposed conceptions of love in the effective and affective cases is supremely important. But I disagree with you that Gibran’s view of love falls into the affective category, and I don’t think Gibran was trying to convey, say, the emotional fluctuations of pleasure/pain. If that were the case then I don’t think Billy would have incorporated it, for that would not be the way to live. I agree with Niko_sulonen and what Felinity noted. Solely in the effective case, just as it provides the highest values its laws dictate the condition of relinquishing all that takes us away from it and or goes against it (egoism, untruth, delusional beliefs and so on). We must live according to it for evolutive fulfilment, as Gibran puts it, love “assigns you to his sacred Fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast…Love has no other desire but to fulfil Itself”. And we must also be responsible for engendering this task.
But even when accepting it, overcoming one’s own beliefs contrary to creations love and deciding to be a responsible agent, my point is that this effective love can consequently exert pain. Seriously everyone I dont like to talk about this with anybody, but when it surges up within me in my deepest meditation it is so immensely powerful and, (and indeed msmichelle, words almost always certainly fail to describe it) that at first it was actually frightening to me despite its intense splendour. I can maintain my concentration a bit better and remain in that splendour nowadays. But in the past I would develop rapid thoughts amidst this inner force that is unmatched to everything else. If it reached an overwhelming threshold, it made me just want to be grounded in materialism again as it completely nullifies all physical sensations, my heart rate rapidly increases, my whole body becomes a giant Tesla coil, so to speak, that is enveloped in a strong electrical sensation that sometimes got to the point that there was a slight stinging or burning sensation on my skin. It’s just so enormous and its supremacy that it envelops me with actually can feel like pain. Billy’s recommendation is to look beyond it, remain fearless and always control ones thoughts. Easier said than done for me. Phi_spiral: your input is very intriguing, and I couldn’t agree more. I will have to occupy myself with Rumi now. Thanks! |
Eddieamartin
Member
Post Number: 1288
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2020 - 06:43 pm: |
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Matthew_cicchini
Respectfully, when I read your quote from Gibran, I do not recognize it speaking of the creational fine fluidal perception of the effective love. (If that's what we are discussing specifically).
There are many types of the love.
Any form of love that may bring about (cause) what Gibran describes is not the creational fine fluidal perception effective love.
But I'm always open to corrections in these discussions. If you can point out where in the spiritual teaching, what Gibran describes pertains to or describes the effective fine fluidal perception love, then I will stand corrected.
The fine fluidal perception love is the power behind the consciousness ability that has become a capability (wisdom) which, said consciousness capability, can be steered through the will. So therefore the self-healing of bodily ills, injuries and harms for example, and the other factors taught in the Goblet Of The Truth.
Salome,
Eddie
In the *Goblet of the Truth* there it says:
Live always in love and in peace, foster freedom and harmony on Earth and never forget the real truth. Foster your life always in goodness of heart and live in the true BEING of the Creation. The *Goblet of the Truth* will wake you, not to the bane - but to the boon. (pg.3)
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Michael_horn
Member
Post Number: 1497
Registered: 07-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2020 - 06:52 pm: |
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Matthew,
I notice that a couple of times you've said something to the effect that "Billy incorporated Gibran's words into the spiritual teaching". Is that a belief you have or do you have substantiation/conformiration for it? |
Matthew_cicchini
New member
Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2016
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2020 - 01:52 am: |
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Of course Michael, and no worries Eddie, I’ll provide Gibran's account followed by Billy’s from the beginning of each passage to the end. Gibran’s poetry is of course terse, while Billy expands upon the symbolism Gibran used. Since Billy is talking about true love and has an undeniable connection to Gibran’s work, I therefore take Gibran to be referring to the effective sense of love. However, I will note one interesting point where Billy seems to correct Gibran.
Gibran,
When love beckons to you, follow him,
Though his ways are hard and steep,
And when his wings enfold you yield to Him,
Though the sword hidden among his
Pinions may wound you.
Billy,
When the human being falls in love then he/she shall give it free reign as he/she does when he/she follows the love when it beckons to him/her. The ways of the love are often hard touchstones of the life, quite often difficult and steep. But, if the human being is enveloped in a breath-thin tissue of the love, then he/she may devote himself/herself to it and preserve it; he/she shall not pay attention to the blades of the swords and the thorns of the bushes which hem the love’s wayside and try to injure the breath which surges with love.
Gibran,
And when he speaks to you believe in Him,
Though his voice may shatter your dreams,
As the north wind lays waste the garden.
For even as love crowns you so shall he
Crucify you. Even as he is for your growth
So is he for your pruning.
Even as he ascends to your height and,
Caresses your tenderest branches that quiver
In the sun,
So shall he descend to your roots and
Shake them in their clinging to the earth.
Billy,
True love is strong and is even able to destroy and is even able to destroy dreams and shatter wishes just as the icy north wind withers the blossoms, because just as the love crowns the human being, it also tortures him/her… the love allows the human being to rise to the highest heights, towards the light of the radiating Sun, so that he/she may caress the tenderest blossoms, but just as quickly, he/she may fall down again to the ground to sink into the soil and to shake the roots of the plants in their earth-boundness.
Gibran,
Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto Himself.
He threshes you to make you naked.
Billy,
The love clothes the human being or makes him/her completely naked; it cleanses him/her or makes him/her dusty in order to then immediately let him/her freeze in the cold or warm in the heat.
Gibran,
He sifts you to free you from your husks.
He grinds you to whiteness.
He kneads you until you are pliant
And then he assigns you to his sacred
Fire, that you may become sacred bread for
God's sacred feast.
Billy,
In the love the human being is often like a grain which is threshed, sifted and freed from the chaff to then be ground into meal and then kneaded until supple, after which the controlled heat raises the leavening and bakes a loaf of bread, which as a work of love, nourishes all.
Gibran,
But if in your fear you would seek only
Love's peace and love's pleasure,
Then it is better for you that you cover
Your nakedness and pass out of love's
Threshing-floor,
Into the seasonless world where you
Shall laugh, but not all of your laughter,
And weep, but not all of your tears.
Love gives naught but itself and takes
Naught but from itself.
Love possesses not nor would it be
Possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love.
Billy,
Unfortunately the human being often only searches for love out of anxiety or to find calmness, pleasure or gratification, however this is the wrong way and a wrong form of love which is only artificially created in order to fulfill emotional or lustful wishes. In this form of the love it is better for the human being if he/she covers the nakedness of his/her greed and searches for the true value of the love in order to find the way of out of his/her world without seasons, which only conveys monotony and in which he/she laughs without being able to enjoy it and in which he/she cried without shedding tears which would bring him/her release… Love itself is only power and it never takes anything which would not be of itself. True love does not allow itself to be possessed, therefore the love also does not possess, because it is the purest fine- spiritual perception and is sufficient in itself.
Only at this point does Billy seem to be correcting Gibran's view on love being located in the heart of god.
Gibran,
When you love you should not say,
"God is in my heart, " but rather, "I am
In the heart of God."
And think not you can direct the course
Of love, for love, if it finds you worthy,
Directs your course.
Billy,
The love is not located in the heart, and it is not the power of god, rather it is the purest fine-spiritual perception of the spirit and of the consciousness of the human being who creates it in himself/herself by means of fine spiritual perception.
The similarities continue.
Gibran,
Love has no other desire but to fulfil
Itself.
But if you love and must needs have
Desires, let these be your desires:
To melt and be like a running brook
That sings its melody to the night.
To know the pain of too much tenderness.
To be wounded by your own under-
Standing of love
And to bleed willingly and joyfully.
Billy,
True love has no wishes at all, rather only the need to fulfil itself. Only the human being has wishes that he/she is always willing to fulfil, and as he/she wants to fulfil these, may he/she do this in true love, thus his/her main wish should be that he/she becomes free of the burden of the unknowledge and of the disharmony; that he/she may melt like the cold glacial ice through the glow of the Sun, and become a rushing brook which, splashing, pours down the valley and sings its incomparable melody, to then wind through the country and flow into the ocean, to become one with it in loving connectedness; the human being may direct his/her wishes at becoming the same as the melting ice and the splashing brook which, in love, unite with the ocean and form a oneness with it; may the wishes of the human beings go there so that they can capture and taste the pain of the innermost connectedness and the tenderness of the love, to be wounded by their own understanding of the love and to joyfully bear the profound of the love.
Gibran,
To wake at dawn with a winged heart
And give thanks for another day of loving;
To rest at the noon hour and meditate
Love's ecstasy;
To return home at eventide with gratitude;
And then to sleep with a prayer for the
Beloved in your heart and a song of praise
Upon your lips.
Billy,
Every morning, may the human being greet the new day with inspired love, and in waking give the life the appropriate thanks and promise that he/she will daily contemplate the delight of the true love and will never rest in creating the truthly love in himself/herself; and may the human being return home every evening, satisfied by the fulfilling of his/her day’s work, full of gratitude and love; and may the human being then go to sleep with words of love on his/her lips for the almightiness of the Creation and its truthly, all-embracing love.
Beautiful! |
Piyali
Member
Post Number: 162
Registered: 08-2012
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2020 - 08:21 am: |
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Salome Mathew @Matthew_cicchini.Welcome to our FIGU English forum.
With regard to your Post number 3, I thank you. I have enjoyed reading it.
May we please have the references to Gibran's poetry and Billy's writing, so we know where you took the examples/excerpts from to help us better understand your thinking? Thank you very much.
Salome
Piyali
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Matthew_cicchini
New member
Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2016
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2020 - 01:53 pm: |
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Hi Piyali, thank you, and sure thing. See Gibran's The Prophet, chapter 2 on love from pages 13-15. And Billy's book The Way to Live, verse 60 on pages 56-60.
Your very welcome. |
Michael_horn
Member
Post Number: 1499
Registered: 07-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2020 - 07:26 am: |
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Hi Matthew,
At first take, it would appear to me that Gibran took his inspiration from the more developed texts from Meier. But of course we know this isn't so.
I would guess that it's a similar situation as The Might of the Thoughts, i.e. that since Meier says he isn't the "author" of much of the spiritual teaching and that he essentially takes it down from the higher levels, it would seem that Gibran did also, at least in part, without the further elaboration that Meier has transcribed.
It's good to recognize real truth, beauty, etc., when and where one finds it. The writers perceive and transcribe in accordance with their own understanding. |
Matthew_cicchini
Member
Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2016
| | Posted on Sunday, November 08, 2020 - 07:55 pm: |
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Hi Michael,
Agreed. And doesn't it say a lot about Gibran! For me, this makes it important to be on the look out for those thinkers that do "recognise the real truth", as you say. This passage from Gibran is loved worlwide, and I think its fantastic that Meier unpacked it.
Especially on very difficult topics, such as what I raised on loves pain. Would you or anyone else know if Meier has touch on this further anywhere in his writings or in the contact reports? |
Reen71b
Member
Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2020
| | Posted on Monday, November 09, 2020 - 03:39 pm: |
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Aside from the reference to the false belief, it is beautiful to read.
Maureen
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Phi_spiral
Member
Post Number: 92
Registered: 04-2020
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2020 - 12:29 pm: |
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Matthew_cicchini: "<snip> ...on loves pain. Would you or anyone else know if Meier has touch on this further anywhere in his writings or in the contact reports?
Hi Matthew. What does "love's pain" mean to you? For me, it is a quality of grief or grieving as a result of a loss or separation of a loved one. The term sadness would also apply. Whether it is the death of someone close to you, a break-up of a relationship or a separation for a long period of time there is a lingering of the pining. Billy speaks about grief/sorrow (Trauer) and sadness (Traurigkeit) in several diverse places, such as, Rebirth, Life, Dying, Death and Sorrow (Wiedergeburt, Leben, Sterben, Tod und Trauer). A certain period of grieving for the loss of a loved one is appropriate and healthy for the psyche. But it is important to return to a balanced and happy life as quickly as possible.
This passage below is taken from Billy's book, Ein Quentchen Wissen, Sinn und Weisheit, (A Little Bit of Knowledge, Meaning and Wisdom), page 5-6:
Sadness is a psychic movement against which the human should be largely immune and which he/she should neither love nor respect, even if the majority of humanity regards this benevolently and with priority in the expression of feelings. However, life itself as well as the conscience, knowledge, consciousness, virtues and love of man are artfully adorned in order to evade the real processing of facts and the given moments of having to deal with certain occurrences and happenings and not in an appropriate, truth-recognizing framework.
Die Traurigkeit ist eine Psychebewegung, gegen die der Mensch weitestgehend gefeit sein und die er weder lieben noch achten sollte, auch wenn das Gros der Menschheit diese wohlwollend und im Ausdruck der Gefrihle als vorrangig erachtet. Damit werden jedoch nur das Leben selbst sowie das Gewissen, das Wissen, das Bewusstsein, die Tugenden und die Liebe des Menschen krinstlich geschmrickt, urn der reellen Verarbeitung der Tatsachen und der gegebenen Momente des Verarbeitenmtissens gewisser Vorkommnisse und Geschehen auszuweichen und diesen nicht in angemessenem und wahrheitserkennendem Rahmen entgegentreten zu mrissen.
In this way sadness degrades itself to a pity which counteracts any insight and therefore makes it impossible to recognize and grasp the real facts. This creates a state of being at the mercy of an unfortunate situation or thing, etc., which must be fundamentally mastered and thus also understood, but which, as a result of wrong thinking, and the wrong generation of feelings, leads to a psychological debacle of comprehensive sadness, non-existent reasoning and confusion.
So degradiert sich die Traurigkeit selbst zu einer Erbarmlichkeit, die jeder Einsichtigkeit entgegenwirkt und daher ein Erkennen und Erfassen der wirklichen Tatsachen verunmog1icht. Dadurch entsteht ein Zustand des Ausgeliefertseins an eine leiderzeugende Situation oder Sache usw., die es grundlegend zu beherrschen und damit auch zu verstehen gilt, die jedoch infolge des falschen Denkens, und damit auch der falschen Gefuhlserzeugung, zu einem Psychedebakel fuhrt, das in umfassender Traurigkeit endet und alle Vernunft zum Nichtsein und in die Wirrnis fuhrt.
Only the person who has already overcome sadness in its essentials and has turned them into controllable thoughts and feelings, which no longer allow any degeneration and which conform to the laws of the Creative and natural, is capable in the moment to recognize and comprehend the real truth of love in everything that is created, in order to understand the given creative-natural laws and recommendations to recognize that something serious is presented from time to time; but that this does not lead to sadness, but should be enough to recognize, grasp and understand things and life as well as to enjoy.
Nur der Mensch, der die Traurigkeit bereits in ihren Grundztigen besiegt hat und sic zu kontrollierbaren Gedanken und Gefuhlen macht, die keiner1ei Ausartung mehr zulassen und die sich den Gesetzen des SchopferischNatrirlichen einordnen, vermag den Moment des Erkennens und Erfassens der wirklichen Wahrheit der Liebe in allem Schopfungsgegebenen zu realisieren, urn im Verstehen der gegebenen schopferisch-naturlichen Gesetze und Gebote zu erkennen, dass Betrribliches wohl von Zeit zu Zeit gegeben sein kann, dass dieses jedoch nicht zur Traurigkeit, sondern zum Erkennen, Erfassen und Verstehen der Dinge und des Lebens sowie zur Freude gereichen soll.
Because sadness actually only arises from selfishness and from a turning away from the joy of existence, but also from not understanding and not wanting to understand things and the laws and commandments of life, consequently these facts only have to be grasped and brought into the correct norms, to master sadness in certain moments and to affirm life, joy and love.
Denn tatsachlich entsteht Traurigkeit nur aus einer Selbstsucht sowie aus einer Abwendung von der Freude zum Dasein, so aber auch aus dem Nichtverstehen und Nichtverstehenwollen der Dinge und der Gesetze und Gebote des Lebens, folglich diese Fakten nur erfasst und in die richtigen Normen gebracht werden mussen, um der Traurigkeit in gewissen Momenten Herr zu werden und um das Leben, die Freude und die Liebe zu bejahen.
Translation is mine and may contain errors.
Regards
Bob |
Matthew_cicchini
Member
Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2016
| | Posted on Sunday, November 22, 2020 - 06:20 pm: |
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Thanks so much for this Phi_spiral. I’m aware of this material and value it very much, thank you for supplying it for me to read again.
The kind of pain I’m trying to focus on is a whole different discussion to emotional pain. When it comes to explaining how pain is connected to the true, creational, effective, fine-spiritual perception love, I speak from my own experience of practising meditation for a very long time, which I noted in a previous post, and how I think I understand the literal meaning of what Billy is saying through Gibran’s poetry. I’m sure many of you would think that this is a paradox; how can creations love, as the most wonderful, mightiest force responsible for all life and brings beauty and the highest values, cause pain? But I think there can be a logical explanation to this, and why Verse 60 in The Way to Live needs critical analysis. To me it undoubtedly sticks out in the book from the rest of the material. I see no justification to treat verse 60 as a teaching to overcoming emotional pain. But I’m all for hearing someone’s argument to the contrary.
In utilising Gibran’s poetry I think Billy elucidates loves pain in either 2 ways. It could be 1) in relation to its absoluteness and the immense power of creation, or 2) how the creational plan of love fulfilling itself imposes cooperation’s and demands that the individual live according to the laws and recommendations and evolve. But this comes in direct conflict with the individuals conscious ego personality to live according to their own materialistic plan, beliefs and desires. My conviction lies within 2), but I still see 1) having some role in describing loves pain at the deepest level.
On 1) According to Billy, an ontological characteristic of love as an imperishable and eternal prime mover of all life including our own, is that it is equally powerful enough to undo and is “able to destroy”. Obviously, destroying life is not in its plan, but I don’t think what Billy is describing is an overstated claim about the power of love. The depth of its power is something that can be perceived in recognising loves force through meditation. Billy says that we ought to create a “breath-thin tissue of the love”, and “not pay attention to the blades of the swords and the thorns of the bushes which hem the love’s wayside and try to injure the breath which surges with love”. This surge is real in the deepest meditation. For me, it is the experience of being fully confronted by the creations numinous force that permeates your entire being. It is an endless sea of values for a constant duration, and each of us an individual being (wesen) having limited scope in our material based evidence of sense-perception, simply cannot imagine or comprehend the true power and limitlessness of love without recognising it within the deepest recesses of consciousness. And when we actually do realise this within oneself such a power creates an irruption to the material consciousness block, causing a life altering transformation. Something the ancient Greeks referred to as a ‘metanoia’. Now maybe “pain” is not the right word to use here in describing such a transformation. In a previous post I have been referring to it as an overwhelmingness, a highly energetic sensation that is confounding, unnerving and bewildering. This goes into a very important teaching, that in order to live according to the love we must be unperturbed by its immenseness and embrace it, the precondition of understanding love as the ultimate, unfathomably immeasurable and constant force capable of destroying must be processed in order to continue living according to the love for our evolution. The only way I can see how pain is associated here, is when in such states of deep introspection we develop incorrect thoughts or a peculiar aversion by standing too close to the loves flame, so to speak, while being still fixated on material desires. But this needs more clarification and I think is better understood via the second point.
2) You can experience the love of creations true might, undergo an enlightening transformation to see the truth to reality in all its simplicity and be astonished by the unending bliss, joy and beauty that can enter your life. But in order for this to arise, it seems that Billy is saying the we each have to first comprehend the love as something that is “even able to destroy dreams and shatter wishes” which “also tortures him/her”. Perhaps this is reasonable grounds for indicating to love as having the characteristic of pain. It tortures us because the love is its own wesen (as mentioned in Arahat Athersata, page 16, verse 30) which is contrary of our egoic individuality. Meditating to actively bring the love into our conscious awareness, means we become connected to creations universal consciousness, which immediately makes us cognizant to how love requires its own fulfilment. We must ascertain and necessarily yield to the love against all extrinsic beliefs and desires, and for this reason, Billy says the way to love is the “hard touchstone of the life” which is the “difficult and steep”. It is intuitive to think that the individual who has not made any attempt to disengage from their habits and desires and begin functioning in an anti-materialistic, would of course think that the first step to conforming to creations love and its laws would be painful. And for Billy, this pain is necessary to begin our evolution, and to actively live in unending bliss, joy and beauty as a true human being.
“May the wishes of the human beings go there [towards the creations love] so that they can capture and taste the pain of the innermost connectedness and the tenderness of the love to be wounded by their own understanding of the love and to joyfully bear the profound of the love”.
I think 2) holds better than 1), but in the end I think both are interrelated. One final note, because we earth humans have a long way to go in our spiritual evolution, and the fact that Billy has written about a new age where we will begin the next evolutionary steps, its apparent to me that more and more people who begin to recognise creations love, its laws and recommendations, will encounter this pain of adapting one’s life to the love and revoke a life “spiritlessness”. |
Eddieamartin
Member
Post Number: 1297
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, November 22, 2020 - 11:56 pm: |
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Mathew_cicchini, it is important to learn from the spiritual teaching just what is "fine-spiritual-perception".
In the book Arahat Athersata about "love", there is a section that includes the love between husband and wife and the forms of love which is helpful to the understanding.
See Arahat Athersata pg. 372 lines 212 to 219 with special emphasis on lines 213 and 217.
Of particular importance for the understanding are lines 220 to 222 with special emphasis on lines 220 and 222.
The "true, creational, effective, fine-spiritual perception love" has nothing to do with what Gibran wrote in his poem.
What Gibran writes about is that of the "affective" forms of love, not the fine-spiritual-perception" love.
Salome,
Eddie
In the *Goblet of the Truth* there it says:
Live always in love and in peace, foster freedom and harmony on Earth and never forget the real truth. Foster your life always in goodness of heart and live in the true BEING of the Creation. The *Goblet of the Truth* will wake you, not to the bane - but to the boon. (pg.3)
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Phi_spiral
Member
Post Number: 98
Registered: 04-2020
| | Posted on Friday, November 27, 2020 - 07:05 pm: |
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Hi Matthew
Yes, I think I have a better idea of what you are talking about now after your explanation.
And as Billy put it, “True love is life itself.” Page 242, Ein Quentchen Wissen, Sinn und Weisheit (A Grain of Knowledge, Meaning and Wisdom)
With that in mind, it’s interesting how closely the spelling is between love (Liebe) and life (Leben) in both the English and German language, Liebe (love) and Leben (life).
Regards
Bob |
Phi_spiral
Member
Post Number: 99
Registered: 04-2020
| | Posted on Friday, November 27, 2020 - 07:50 pm: |
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Here is some additional explanation regarding the difference between True Love and Untrue Love excerpted from Billy’s book, Ein Quentchen Wissen, Sinn und Weisheit.
True love originates from the Gemüt of the spirit-form.
Whereas, Untrue love originates from thoughts and feelings.
From pages 204-205:
True love is sublimity, awe, peace, joy, freedom, bliss, and miraculous power; it is fine-spiritual perception (Empfindung) from the deepest depths of the Gemüt. But what people commonly call love is often nothing more than a shameful phrase worthy of loathing. It is often nothing more than a farce, a whole series of lowly, insulting, misleading and self-centered false feelings and highly cultivated emotions.
Die wahre Liebe ist Erhabenheit, Ehrfurcht, Frieden, Freude, Freiheit, Wonne und Wunderkraft; sie ist wahre Empfindung aus den tiefsten Tiefen des geistigen Gemüts. Was aber von den Menschen so gemeinhin als Liebe genannt wird, ist oft nicht mehr als eine schändliche Phrase, die der Verabscheuung würdig ist. Sie ist oft nicht mehr als eine Farce, eine ganze Reihe niedrigstehender, beleidigender, irreführender und selbstbezogener falscher Gefühle sowie hochgezüchteter Emotionen.
This false and inhumane form of false love protrudes into all forms of society, and there is hardly anyone who recognizes it for what it truly is - namely, ridiculous and despicable false emotional impulses that are built up by self-deception and uncontrolled desires and desires to be lived out. True love, however, is of a completely different nature, arises from the realm of the Gemüt and appears as joyful and happy, invigorating and as fine spiritual perception in consciousness and in the psyche.
Diese falsche und menschenunwürdige Form falscher Liebe ragt in alle Gesellschaftsformen hinein, und es gibt kaum einen Menschen, der sie als das erkennt, was sie wahrheitlich ist – nämlich verspottungs-und verachtungswürdige falsche gefühlsmässige Regungen, die durch Selbstbetrug und unkontrollierte Begierden und Wünsche aufgebaut und ausgelebt werden. Die wahre Liebe ist jedoch völlig anders geartet, entspringt aus dem Bereich des geistigen Gemüts und tritt als freudig und glückhaft belebend und als tiefste Empfindung im Bewusstsein und in der Psyche in Erscheinung.
True love is not built on false feelings and emotions, and it is not what has become an everyday word that no longer has any meaningful value. But for those people who really know and experience what true love actually means, for him/her this true love, which can be experienced as fine-spiritual perception (Empfindung) from the Gemüt, is an immense value of the creational, in which devotion, perseverance, honesty, patience, tolerance and goodness as well as friendship, humility, meekness, togetherness, connectedness, humanity and compassion are as deeply anchored values as many other different genuineness of relative perfection.
Wahre Liebe ist nicht aufgebaut auf falschen Gefühlen und auf Emotionen, und sie ist nicht das, was zu einem alltäglichen Wort geworden ist, das keinerlei bedeutenden Wert mehr besitzt. Jener Mensch aber, der wirklich weiss und erfährt, was wahre Liebe tatsächlich bedeutet, für den ist diese wahre und aus dem geistigen Gemüt als Empfindung erlebbare Liebe ein ungeheurer Wert des Schöpferischen, in dem Hingabe, Ausdauer, Ehrlichkeit, Geduld, Toleranz und Güte sowie Freundschaft, Bescheidenheit, Sanftmut, Zusammengehörigkeit, Verbundenheit, Menschlichkeit und Mitgefühl ebenso tiefverankerte Werte sind wie viele andere verschiedene Echtheiten relativer Vollkommenheit.
So it can be said: “True love is everything, and everything is true love. “ However, man must first find this love in the deepest depths of his/her Gemüt, because only there is the spiritual, the creational, at home in man.
So darf gesagt werden: «Wahre Liebe ist alles, und alles ist wahre Liebe. » Diese Liebe jedoch muss der Mensch erst in den tiefsten Tiefen seines geistigen Gemüts finden, denn allein dort ist das Geistige, das Schöpferische, im Menschen beheimatet.
From pages 242-243:
The more man feels true love in himself and lives according to it, the more he wants to act and let his fellow human beings feel this love as well. However, untrue love that only comes about through thoughts and feelings cannot do this and cannot be recognized as love in its emotional behavior.
Je mehr der Mensch die wahre Liebe in sich Spürt und nach ihr lebt, desto mehr will er handeln und diese Liebe auch die Mitmenschen Spüren lassen. Unwahre Liebe jedoch, die nur durch Gedanken und Gefühle zustande kommt, vermag das nicht zu tun und kann in ihrem Emotionsgebaren auch nicht als Liebe anerkannt werden.
True love is the center and the all-embracing of all existence, so also in creation and in man. True love spreads out from the center as well as from the encompassing one and pulsates through all existence. And when people make true love their own, they will gain harmony, calm, joy, peace and freedom within themselves and also release and live out these values for their fellow human beings. And in this sense, as well as in the gathering of knowledge and wisdom, he will not go wrong in any direction.
Die wahre Liebe ist die Mitte und das Umfassende aller Existenz, so also auch in der Schöpfung und im Menschen. Sowohl von der Mitte wie auch vom Umfassenden aus breitet sich die wahre Liebe aus und durchwebt pulsierend alle Existenz. Und wenn sich der Mensch die wahre Liebe zu eigen macht, wird er Harmonie, Ruhe, Freude, Frieden und Freiheit in sich selbst gewinnen und diese Werte auch nach aussen für die Mitmenschen freigeben und ausleben. Und in diesem Sinn sowie im Sammeln von Wissen und Weisheit wird er in keiner Richtung fehlgehen.
Since true love, which comes from the Gemüt in terms of feeling, is in the middle and in the all-embracing of all existence, everything is balanced through it, consequently an exaggeration or neglect never appears in any way. Nor does it ever evade or lose anything. The true love of a spiritually creative nature, as it is given in the Gemüt of the spirit-form of every person, originally anchored in Creation itself, can be experienced through material consciousness and the psyche.
Da die wahre Liebe, die aus dem geistigen Gemüt empfindungsmässig entspringt, in der Mitte und im Umfassenden aller Existenz ist, so wird durch sie alles ausgeglichen, folglich niemals in irgendeiner Art und Weise eine Übertreibung oder Vernachlässigung in Erscheinung tritt. Sie weicht auch niemals irgendwelchen Dingen aus und verliert auch niemals etwas. Die wahre Liebe geistigschöpferischer Natur, wie sie im Gemüt der Geistform jedes Menschen gegeben ist, ursprünglich im Schöpferischen selbst verankert, ist erlebbar durch das materielle Bewusstsein und die Psyche.
It remains the core and the encompassing of the entire existence of the human being, of all other manifold forms of life and existences on earth as well as in the entire universal space. True love is life itself. It rounds the course of all things, of all life, of the world, of the universe and of universal consciousness itself, whereby everything good and positive is balanced and realized.
Sie bleibt der Kern und die Umfassung des gesamten Daseins des Menschen, aller anderen mannigfachen Lebensformen und Existenzen auf der Erde sowie im gesamten universellen Raum. Die wahre Liebe ist das Leben selbst. Sie rundet den Lauf aller Dinge, aller Leben, der Welt, des Universums und des Universalbewusstseins selbst, wodurch alles Gute und Positive ausgeglichen und verwirklicht wird.
Translation is mine and may contain errors.
Regards
Bob |
Eddieamartin
Member
Post Number: 1300
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, November 28, 2020 - 10:31 am: |
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Hello Bob (Phi_spiral)
Although I'm still in the infancy of my learning, through the Goblet Of The Truth I have recognized a great deal. I say this in comparison to all my learning and studies through my former religious beliefs.
What BEAM wrote helps me form my learning and cognitions from my studies into a clearly define explanation and cognition. He articulates precisely what I have come to cognizance, but in a way I myself would not be able to articulate. This to me shows me BEAM has not only experienced and cognized the same, but that he is truly a master of high mastery of the knowledge and wisdom.
The only thing I would change in your translation is the word humility to modesty, because the true love neither has nor does it cultivate humility, but rather modesty in all its harmonious and freedom giving nature.
Salome,
Eddie
In the *Goblet of the Truth* there it says:
Live always in love and in peace, foster freedom and harmony on Earth and never forget the real truth. Foster your life always in goodness of heart and live in the true BEING of the Creation. The *Goblet of the Truth* will wake you, not to the bane - but to the boon. (pg.3)
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Jokubas_stalmokas
Member
Post Number: 108
Registered: 01-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, January 09, 2021 - 04:28 am: |
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Recently while watching YouTube videos, I came across Dick Cavett show with James Baldwin as a guest. What caught my attention was the badge worn on his chest which was the peace symbol. Maybe someone knows more about it, the background or what it represents for him? |
Phi_spiral
Member
Post Number: 119
Registered: 04-2020
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 09:41 pm: |
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I was recently reading an article by Vibka Wallder which appears in the February, 2021 publication by FIGU - LANDESGRUPPE AUSTRALIA. The article was about translating the book, "Introduction to Meditation." She writes:
"Translating the book was hard work, because even for a German speaker the meditation instructions are often difficult to understand, therefore finding the right translation was a challenge and Mariann often had to consult Billy regarding the meaning of some terms of the spiritual teaching, or “Teaching of Creation-energy” as it has recently been termed by Billy."
And elsewhere she writes;
"The main thing about studying the spiritual teaching, that is to say, the teaching of the creational energy, is that we endeavour to not just read it and talk about it and create lots of leaves that keep falling to the ground. Rather we must put the teaching into practice, thus engage in self-reflection and work on strategies that will “produce the fruit”.
Has anyone else come across mention of this terminology change of the term the spiritual teaching to the teaching of the creational energy anywhere?
Regards
Bob |
Eddieamartin
Member
Post Number: 1338
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2021 - 08:44 am: |
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Phi_spiral
Hello Bob,
Through my study of the Goblet Of The Truth I came to realize that the parts pertaining to the Teaching Of The Spirit had much to do with "energy" (which of course can be corroborated by anyone who reflects through introspection).
To my surprise, I had come across the Plejaren using the term creation-energy when referring to the teaching of the spirit with BEAM.
Naturally, this made me curious and so I asked Christian Frehner for clarification because in my own thoughts I mistakenly concluded that "creational-energy" was the same as "creation-energy". But I had some small little doubts about my conclusion.
Here is what Christian explained which clarified it for me and that everyone should contemplate and reflect on.
Hello Eddie
The correct term is "Lehre der Schöpfungsenergie", which I would translate as "The Teaching of Creation-Energy" or the teaching of creation-energy.
Creational energy means "schöpferische Energie" which can be understood in more than one way.
Salome,
Christian
Salome,
Eddie
In the *Goblet of the Truth* there it says:
Live always in love and in peace, foster freedom and harmony on Earth and never forget the real truth. Foster your life always in goodness of heart and live in the true BEING of the Creation. The *Goblet of the Truth* will wake you, not to the bane - but to the boon. (pg.3)
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