| Author | Message | ||
    Borthwey Member Post Number: 60 Registered: 09-2007 |
Hunter: I share, or have shared, some of your concerns with what may seem like a very impersonal process following death, as described by Billy. But I don’t have to guide myself by that description alone. Maybe there is much more to it than what is described. There is no way of really knowing, but I don’t care much, anyway. I prefer to be given an overall and “dry” description than to be fooled by fantasies. The spirit exists after death in the fine matter world. I do believe that the nature of that existence relates in some way to our current existence, in a more or less slight way. For example, consider an extremely hateful, manipulative, material minded person, a psychotically ill one or a mass murderer. They too have a spirit, a fraction of Creation within, which after death stays in the beyond in a neutral existence, just like every other spirit. Do you think that those persons could relate in any way with their spirit’s existence? It would be something quite different, even if it was still them at some level. It just didn’t have anything to do with the personality that existed before. Their next personality in the material world would be a brand new one but nevertheless, there are many connections between lives, both in what one thinks and in what one encounters. There is a connection with the central consciousness block which is connected with the previous personalities. That connection can be helpful or it can be a nuisance, at least until the individual starts to recognize that certain parts of his/her thought are not adjusted to the current life. David O meu lema é: NÃO HÁ CRISE. | ||
Marcela Member Post Number: 85 Registered: 06-2008 |
Pathfinder: I read the entire “Questions to Billy”, because I didn’t want to repeat questions, and we get the opportunity once a month I didn’t want to waste my questions. So, I have read a lot about reincarnation, and while I am still processing the information, I came to the conclusion that our identity is very complex and not easy to understand. This is how I see it though. We reincarnate with a spirit and a new personality created by Creation. However, we inherit the genes of our parents, their thoughts, and that shapes our person as well. Billy has said that while we live a material life our thoughts are transmitted to our cells and then to our organs, so we become what we think, and we modified our genes as well, which pass to our offspring’s… While we live, we also learn about material knowledge, wisdom, love, harmony, I guess the seven pillars of Creation. All of this is storaged in the storage banks of the CCB. When we die, our personality is dissolved from the Gemuet (I am not sure), I don’t know where the personality is, but then we are born again, and we have no idea of our previous identity. However, Billy has said that we might get impulse thoughts for our storage banks that we accept or ignore. For example, he said that if we learn the spiritual teachings right now, there is a good possibility that we might find the FIGU again. But if we are born to very religious parents, we might become religious again, because Religion has become a gene in the human, and it is very hard to fight against this illness. So, our conscience improves in every life, and when we are confronted by a situation, we might get hit by impulse thoughts from our previous incarnation about what to do. This is how I understand the process. I might be wrong, maybe it is my interpretation. There is no way you can remember your reincarnations. Not even with hypnosis. Billy has knowledge of his reincarnations, because he is a highly evolved spirit, and also he has access to his storage banks, that’s how he wrote the “Kelch der Wahrheit”. I think he uses spiritual power. What I am saying here is my own interpretation of FIGI info. I am responsible for any wrong saying here, and I would never say this to anybody outside this forum, because I am still learning. The only way we reunite with Creation is when we evolved enough to join her. If our spirit doesn’t learn, then how can we reach Creation, you know what I am saying…This is an excellent question to Billy BTW  Salome | ||
Scott Moderator Post Number: 1668 Registered: 12-1999 |
Marcela, I do remember one of the FIGU members stating children do sometimes remember their previous life up to around 7 years of age. Of course this doesn't mean every child will remember his or her past life, but it does happen from time to time. Scott | ||
Marcela Member Post Number: 86 Registered: 06-2008 |
One more thing... I meant to say: ...thoughts FROM our storage banks, not FOR... For example, Plejarens have the spiritual teachings in their genes, so they are born already very evolved. We still need to be born, find the truth again, and so on, until one day the spiritual teachings will be accepted everywhere, I hope. Salome | ||
Marcela Member Post Number: 87 Registered: 06-2008 |
Scott: Really? Because, in England there was a case of a little girl that remembered her being another person and she remembered where she lived, among other things. It turned out that her case got the attention from the media and they discovered that the lady she claimed to be existed a few hundred years ago and they found the address, etc. I didn't watch the show, but they were saying that could prove reincarnation. Or it was a made up story for TV...I'll try to google the show. Salome | ||
Scott Moderator Post Number: 1669 Registered: 12-1999 |
Hi Marcela, This should actually be posted in the reincarnation section, but here is a link which tends to support the idea of reincarnation: http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/dailycourier/news/s_189477.html | ||
Pathfinder Member Post Number: 298 Registered: 10-2008 |
David, I realize that this is a mystery that we will likley not solve in our present lifetime, but the only reason that I am trying to guide myself by it is because I am on the path of seeking the truth in whatever issues I have a chance to find it. At this time because I am studying the Meier teachings it is prevalent. The BEAM teachings have exceptional value and merit in many regards, but their influences toward reincarnation should be studied with an open mind that looks both ways, as I suggest in my blog. We should not just accept what is taught without scrutiny or the danger of becoming trapped in a religious faith will ensue. As I delve in that mindset I cannot help but be skeptical about certain aspects of this teaching. Therefore I pose as many questions and thoughts as I can hoping that I might hear that one offering that will guide me further toward the truth. What I am hearing here is certainly worth consideration and stirring much thought on the matter of reincarnation, but I am still trying to sort it all out. Chris has offered some serious pangs to be struggled over. However this is how my logic is seeing this at this time. If I am to evolve it must be as more than a storage bank of information for creation to use. That makes me feel like a book on a library shelf. Nothing more than something to be picked up and read without any intimate interaction whatsoever. How is this an evolution of who I am? How does this make me a more higher evolved person in my future? Something is not quite right with the end teaching. I lean toward reincarnation of the spirit, and an upgrading pr downgrading of that spirit according to its previous life experiences, but the problem occurs when BEAM teaches about this akasha records and the process of the spirit during its afterlife, or between lives. Something is amiss regarding the identity and character of that single individual spirit. How does it evolve as an individual thought processing, existence experiencing entity if all it becomes is just another book on a shelf when it dies? Hunter http://blueskinsearcher.blogspot.com/ "Therefore nothing may mislead him to un-truth and falseness, because his entire BEING is in the creational cognition of infinite truth." Contact 18:62 | ||
Edward Member Post Number: 1282 Registered: 05-2002 |
Hi Marcela.... As I understand it: Yes, OUR/ALL Creation(s) only obtain a/ONE Material Belt; only ONCE....in her Begin creation/state. And than, through her evolution....passing the billions of terrestrial years and Great Times...etc, she would have completed her first cycle, and go into to a dormant state of Being. And when she newly awakes, she will be of a much Higher and Concentrated Format, thus...in a Higher Spiritual Format, of Creation/Existence. Not needing a material belt, anymore. We humans go through that same faze...when we have reached the AA(Arahat Athersata): and thus we evolve now further, in the similar fashion as the Creation, thus....in a Spiritual fashion, with our Spirit-form; and thus do not need a Material Body, anymore. So, there will come a time that all the material aspects(humans, animals, plant life...etc) of existence would have done their job, so to speak. And there is no more utilization for them. They have fulfilled their Purpose/Goal in existence, for their benefit as well as that for the Creation, they existed within. And so, now we as well as The Creation, are off to our next evolution cycle(s) SPIRITUALLY(Material Bodiless)....fulfilling our next Absolutum experience: To Greater Heights....... Edward. | ||
Marcela Member Post Number: 89 Registered: 06-2008 |
Pathfinder & Edaward: At the end we are spirit more than we are bodies, because the essence, what survives all catastrophes is the spirit inside of us. We are spirit forever, so our true self is the spirit inside of us. Billy said that we reincarnate in the society that fits our conscience level, so an educated professor will not reincarnate in the Amazon jungle, if he would reincarnate randomly, evolution wouldn’t be possible. And with Edward explanation I see what Scott meant about the Creation’s creation after this cycle. Salome | ||
Pathfinder Member Post Number: 300 Registered: 10-2008 |
But are we more than the information and experience we manage to collect? Is our spirit an entity, and identity, an individual? Am I the spirit in me that evolves, or am I this body that will die? Will the spirit that lives on be me using another body, or another person using my spirit? This identity question is the perplexing issue here. Hunter "Therefore nothing may mislead him to un-truth and falseness, because his entire BEING is in the creational cognition of infinite truth." Contact 18:62 | ||
Cpl Member Post Number: 413 Registered: 08-2004 |
Dear Hunter, "Is our spirit an entity, and identity, an individual? Am I the spirit in me that evolves, or am I this body that will die? Will the spirit that lives on be me using another body, or another person using my spirit? This identity question is the perplexing issue here." A few personal comments: It depends how we define these terms of "entity", "identity" and "individual" and I'm not asking you to define them here. I would suggest that to the degree you represent and express your spirit in your life your identity and individuality will continue on. But these terms are by no means easy to define in exactitude as the changing environment, people and circumstances we are subject to in incarnation continually impinge upon one causing adjustments; simply put we are, in earthly incarnation, never able to completely and continually express spirit only. We are a composite. It has been said that you are what you concentrate on. Where the mind goes there goes the person. So when one associates and identifies oneself completely with the spirit one is that which never dies, but when associating and identifying with the body one is that which will surely die. The spirit assists in creating the new person but it seems to me it doesn't completely take over the genetics of the new form and mold it to exactly how it wants. It seems to find the best material (genetic and otherwise) it can to perform what it wishes and hopes for the coming incarnation and works with it. This being the realm of imperfection there is always a trade off, so to speak: a weakness or challenge in A and C might be accepted because a strength in B and D which come with the new body are more desirable for the next incarnation. IMO basically, you take all the good with you. It's not just information, but feelings and love too. It is, however, all integrated into the spirit. That may make it sound a bit like a mathematical equation, but it is as much the very essence of love, wisdom, knowledge and understanding as anything else. It's perhaps similar to not having all the experiences of this lifetime before you in the present reality. Every one of them is a mere memory only, apart from what is before you now. You have assimilated all those experiences in your life up to now as you went along. All you need of them now is the memory -- or at least in the realm of matter, space and time that is all you have and can have. In the same way the spirit absorbs all the experiences of all the lifetimes lived and they are held in the spiritual memory. If you need to gain from that in a future life you can, through the spirit. This is not as difficult as you may be imagining. You and everyone here, including myself, are inquiring about and looking into spiritual matters, so you are surely tuning into what you have learned previously (and not learned) to help progress in the here and now. While someone may struggle in his life to learn and come to terms with something new, when they finally succeed and learn or understand for the first time, in a future life they will be able to gain a familiarity with the answers previously gained, for those answers will resonate within the spirit and so previously learned things will come easier or be able to be learned or picked up quickly. We could say that spiritual truths learned in this life will likely just click for us in a future life as long as we are searching for them. Since experiencing the Transformation after decoding Chamber 6 painting I often feel just like a spirit inhabiting an empty human body; but life is complex, and when being drawn into the human drama of interacting with others those others are often associating you with your body and requiring you in order to communicate with them to associate self with the body. Life is a multidimensional drama which often confounds our ability to define it. This doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It means we have some big challenges ahead the solving of which will prove very rewarding for us personally in terms of consciousness, knowledge, understanding, love and not least in terms of the language constructs we will develop. Kind regards, Chris | ||
Pathfinder Member Post Number: 306 Registered: 10-2008 |
Chris, I think you are right in one aspect; that these multifacets of a human cannot be separated. We know that we are spirit using a material form. But as you said, it is much more complex than the empty shell analogy. There are other factors to consider that also bond the spirit and body together in a way that they cannot be separated by idenitites. If one could meditate and become their inner self, they would realize an energy within them that is as powerful as anything that creation has made. The most powerful energy in the material world is exactly the same thing residing in our very forms. the human body is made up of zillions of atoms, each one with the same power capability. And each atom is a continuing descendant of something even more powerful and deeper within it, mitchondria, electrons, neutrons, quarks, forgive the terminology miostakes but you know what I am saying. The human is in fact a walking powerhouse of energy. And within that framework is the emotions and intelligence that make us more than pure energy. The combination of these two characteristics of the human is what make us more than a shell of unharnessed power. We become a plant of harnessed and functioning power. though our molecules act involuntarily to produce for us, our intellect and emotion is what creates who we are instead of what we are. And it is in this mysterious driving force that we find the true identity of who and what we are. It is not just spirit, or body, or gathered information, because any one of these without the other is impossible. Identity is more than what body we exist in at any one time, it is the true power source behind the ability to exist at all that makes us who we are, and that mystery is not bound to one facet of the human but to all facets. Inreality we are walking atomic powerplants utilizing an energy that is mysteriously bound to the Creator/Origin and the flesh, soul and spirit are all bound together in the same way. The identity of any human is found in the communion of all of its elements, not in one. So is the spirit just a battery? Is the body just the driver? These are nonsensical questions when the truth is considered regarding them. Hunter "Therefore nothing may mislead him to un-truth and falseness, because his entire BEING is in the creational cognition of infinite truth." Contact 18:62 | ||
Borthwey Member Post Number: 61 Registered: 09-2007 |
My opinion is that living as a spirit would be extremely dysfunctional; you simply couldn’t operate in the material world. Much of what we are is reactive. What drives us to do anything at all? If you take out everything that is reactive, you will find the spirit, which is the purely creative principle. A spirit is never reactive; it has no lack, no desire. It doesn’t have any reason to do anything. It doesn’t want anything since it has everything. If one was living as a spirit, the indecision would inhibit any function. When facing choices, there would never be any reason to choose one over the other. We are here to exercise our preferences as humans. But we can gain power by losing some preferences and operating more on the basis of logic alone; it will drive us closer to what is creative. Our desires will have more meaning when we have fewer of them. David O meu lema é: NÃO HÁ CRISE. | ||
Pathfinder Member Post Number: 308 Registered: 10-2008 |
You see, this is where I wish that Beam could interject some assistance and clarify this for us all. Your definition of spirit is definitely not what I think of my spirit as, David. and others here seem to agree with you but I am still not certain that your version of spirit is what Billy teaches. I have the idea that the spirit is more akin to the ghostly type of entity that lives within the body. It is obviously not material, but it is certainly an entity, not merely energy. I cannot surmise exactly what you have in mind when you try to define your idea of spirit, but I cannot accept that version at this time. It simply leaves out too much of the character that man becomes as he evolves. "Therefore nothing may mislead him to un-truth and falseness, because his entire BEING is in the creational cognition of infinite truth." Contact 18:62 | ||
Patm Member Post Number: 8 Registered: 07-2006 |
From what I have learned so far(much to go)... From Creation which is the "WHOLE" (imagine to be a clenched fist) shoots all these spirits (the hand opens wide). On the tip of each of these spirits is a physical existence (you, me, a plant, a planet, a bug). Each has its own spirit connecting it to the whole, Creation. The spirit part of me is who I am, I learn, I share, I react to the things I do the way I do... My spirit has this tool to use as I choose, the physical existence (the very tip of the finger), my body which my spirit has to use for as long as it will be around. At which point it will become part of the whole again and rejoin with Creation (clenched fist again). Until then my spirit has this tool/physical existence/body to interact with other "tools" and the spirits learning within each of them. Through my intent (truth or evil) my spirit creates energy (positive or negative, respectively)in the actions/reactions my spirit generates using this tool (my body) to interact with other spirits through their bodies (tools). The spirit in most people only focus in one direction, through the physical body which is limited by time and space to interact with other physical existences in the same time and space. The ability exists for each spirit to focus in the other direct and actually tap on the energy of the whole (Creation) and in doing so tap on all other spirits as the whole without the limitations of physical time and space. I have much to learn from the spiritual lessons to continue my spiritual evolution... which for me will NOT end when my spirit's current "tool" (my body) is dust. | ||
Creational Member Post Number: 135 Registered: 09-2008 |
Dear Patm, This is so amazing, for I had the same sort of analogy in my mind while reading the material. Salome, Zhila, Thank you Billy. | ||
Borthwey Member Post Number: 62 Registered: 09-2007 |
Hunter, what you say in some of your earlier posts has lead me to certain reflections which actually, have gotten me closer to the meaning of the materials that I’ve already had access to. “If I am to evolve it must be as more than a storage bank of information for creation to use. That makes me feel like a book on a library shelf. Nothing more than something to be picked up and read without any intimate interaction whatsoever.” I guess that for Creation the value of our lives is just… information. That seems like the purpose for creating these sentient entities. Some new knowledge must be gained and information acquired. Life occurs by Creation’s laws in the sense that it evolves naturally according to those laws. The laws are just “the way it is”. So in one sense, everything that happens is according with Creation’s laws. On another sense, the actions which are deemed as transgressions of creation’s law are the ones that are not according with what is creative. But even then, they are still creative in the sense that they bring effects that will bring one back to the truth. So by the laws, every entity will know and live in the creational truths. That is not the goal of creation; it’s just a property of it. What interests “Creation” is the process of getting there and the information that is gathered along the way. So in that sense, maybe we are indeed some sort of “puppets” being tested, I mean, experienced. I think that this which we live is indeed just information, from Creation’s point of view. The importance of our consciousnesses, when viewed on that light, is just a transitory property in the grand scheme of things. I think that the importance of the spirit is that it brings together many personalities into one cohesive unit. What you experience will become information for your spirit, not mine. All that is gathered collectively by the spirits becomes information for Creation, but the spirit’s individuality ensures that each one will find a different way to grow through the successive incarnations. About the “intimate interaction with the Creation” which you think occurs after death. You mean the ecstasy of the reunion with the All, the feeling of complete warmth and supreme happiness etc? The only reference that I have seen about feelings of that kind is in the Contact Notes, when during a great journey across space Billy is transported to “timelessness”. However, when I asked him about it in the “Questions to Billy” section, he said that the “timelessness” and the fine matter world where the spirit resides are not the same thing. “I lean toward reincarnation of the spirit, and an upgrading pr downgrading of that spirit according to its previous life experiences” There is no downgrading of the spirit because of the life experiences. EVERY incarnation brings about evolution. Evolution occurs through experience, and that is what happens in every life where there is consciousness. In an later post you wrote: “I have the idea that the spirit is more akin to the ghostly type of entity that lives within the body. It is obviously not material, but it is certainly an entity, not merely energy.” Not merely energy? Everything is energy manifested in one way or another… Ghostly type of entity? I suppose that by our standards it would be called that. Who said otherwise? "I cannot surmise exactly what you have in mind when you try to define your idea of spirit, but I cannot accept that version at this time." If you cannot "surmise", then how can you not accept it? How can you accept or reject something that you don't even know? David | ||
Pathfinder Member Post Number: 311 Registered: 10-2008 |
I wanted to let you know Pat that you are on the right path IMO when you think of the body as the tool of the spirit, instead of the way these BEAM teachings suggest that the spirit is the tool of the reincarnated body. I had responded to your post in more depth but the moderators chose to keep it off the board for some reason. I do not think they like it when people make observations that clearly cause them doubt about what they have accepted. Hang in there Pat and do not allow anyone's fear of criticism keep you from seeking the truth and sorting through the information that you come across for elements which require fine tuning. They will not like it and will become defensive but the priority should be truth and not comfort. Hunter http://www.blueskinsearcher.blogspot.com/ "Therefore nothing may mislead him to un-truth and falseness, because his entire BEING is in the creational cognition of infinite truth." Contact 18:62 | ||
Scott Moderator Post Number: 1677 Registered: 12-1999 |
Hunter, Can you tell me how bodies can reincarnate? Scott | ||
Borthwey Member Post Number: 63 Registered: 09-2007 |
I would say that the body is a tool of the personality inhabiting it, which in itself is a tool of the spirit which uses the personality in order to grow in knowledge. The existing personality can perceive itself as the spirit or even as the Creation itself, but these perceptions will always be limited. About the spirit being a tool of the body: this is impossible, the body only cares about the continuity of its existance (which is assured by eating, sex, physical preservation etc.) and the spirit would never be of any use for that purpose. My current understanding is not that the CCB or the Gemüt (which I think are what Hunter is mistaking for the spirit) are a tool of the personality (which I suppose is what he means by "body"), but instead that they simply interact with the consciousness to a degree that makes it possible to say that they are an integral part of the consciousness of the personality inhabiting the body. This is what causes our previous life(s) to subconsciously exist in us (the interaction between our consciousness and the subconscious). David | ||
J_rod7 Member Post Number: 587 Registered: 10-2007 |
.. Ed-Hunter, You keep making mistakes in your logic. This appears to be your chosen method of learning on your own path of evolution. Where ever did you get the idea: [ "...these BEAM teachings suggest that the spirit is the tool of the reincarnated body." ]? These "BEAM teachings" clearly teach that the body is the transitory vehicle of the spirit. Do due diligence, friend, you clearly have not done your 'homework.' As to the continuous mistakes in your thinking, this was also addressed by Billy in Our Manifesto (FIGU), as follows...: "In accordance with the spiritual teachings, and based upon a Creative law and its resulting order, FIGU teaches that the entire human life span is a continuous learning process. Thus, as a rule, a human being cannot avoid making mistakes that are frequently caused by the person's ignorance of matters and situations on hand. "In general, human beings become reasonable only when they feel the consequences of their mistakes and are faced with their repercussions. Making mistakes and recognizing them as a part of a neutral assessment and clarification is expedient to that person. "Mistakes play an important role. They are an element of the experiences people must learn to live with as a portion of their freedom to think and to act, from which they draw conclusions and gain new realizations. "Therefore, mistakes are a part of Creation's principles and laws, and they serve man as sources for learning during his evolutionary quest." - FIGU Manifesto http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/FIGU#WHAT_MEMBERS_LEARN_AND_TEACH_AT_FIGU Whether you learn the Truth in THIS LIFETIME, OR NOT is the choice you make for yourself. All you are really doing by such obstinacy and obtuse thinking, is to delay your own growth and evolution. You're on your own path, of your own choice. All I ask, is for you to study and learn all that you can, and please stop bothering the rest of us with your nonsense. Salome .. You say you want an Evolution, well you know, we're all doing what we can. -(Beatles revamped) Rod | ||
Pathfinder Member Post Number: 312 Registered: 10-2008 |
Scott, What in my post brings you to ask that question? IMHO, The spirit uses each incarnated body as the tool of its evolutionary process. The body does not use the spirit as a tool or as some intermediate between the knowledge base and the body that attempts to acquire it. It is the spirit of a man that is the intelligence and the Being, which uses the reincarnated bodies as a means of interacting with the material world. From what I am hearing taught here in this forum, is the reverse of what I understand, and I must disagree with it at this time. I do not see the spirit as some sort of 'phone call energy' between the records and the bodies trying to access those records. I see the spirit as the entity/being that is using each new body to interact with existence, applying what it has learned through its many lives. The fact that each incarnation bears the burden of an unconscious state which must be awakened, does not mean that the original indwelling spirit does not have an individual immortal identity that it has developed over thousands of years of living. The reason we are discussing this here is because FIGU teaches the reincarnation of spirit and this is something I strive to learn more about. If I disagree with the exact teaching that is my prerogative. If you would like this forum to be a place where FIGU is not disagreed with, than I have read the manifesto of FIGU inaccurately. Hunter "Therefore nothing may mislead him to un-truth and falseness, because his entire BEING is in the creational cognition of infinite truth." Contact 18:62 | ||
Scott Moderator Post Number: 1679 Registered: 12-1999 |
Hunter, Maybe I am missing something here, but you keep using the term reincarnated bodies. Again, I ask how do bodies reincarnate? Bodies do not reincarnate, the spirit "re-appears" within a new body each life time, but each body the spirit inhabits is new, it is composed of new matter etc....it is not (the body) re-appearing again.... Scott |
