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    Johnnybalmain Member Post Number: 131 Registered: 11-2007 |
Hi Mat, That statement of yours "Everyone should have the right to have atleast one child". Where does this right come from is it a birthright, is it earned what is the basis for this belief/statement? Just curious. Peace John | ||
Ix09 Member Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2011 |
@ Michael_horn: Greetings again Michael. I agree with you. This sense of entitlement is indeed a problem. Such however is the state of man, and is in all likelihood insurmountable without massive worldwide education and higher education free and accessible to and for everyone. Even with higher education as a step towards rational thought, some will still hold to their feelings of self entitlement, but these are likely outliers on the bell curve. Statistically, studies comparing levels of and degrees of educations indicate those with higher educations have much smaller birth rates in comparison with those who have no, very little, or only marginal educations. To put it simply, uneducated people, of most every culture worldwide have a much higher birthrate compared to peoples with higher educations. This is why I say that higher education and access to higher education for everyone is so very very important. More than just possibly impacting population growth, collectively raising the education of the worldwide population will give us greater means in brute number and force of mind to work out, and solve many other problems that could benefit strongly by more minds pitching in and working. Higher education opens the mind to critical thinking and the value of questioning everything compared to simple acceptance and blind faith also. This is sometimes a gateway for dissolving belief in superstition, mythology and other traps of blind faith. Without activating minds through higher education, this grasp of self entitlement will persist and populations will continue to grow with very little check until internal social pressures self regulate through war, disease, famine, and/or ecological collapse due to over taxation of demand on the biosphere to support the increasing numbers. Natural disasters can also play part in population reduction but these are independently rogue variables in the equation that will do little by way of helping humanity learn any lessons other than by enforcing a victim attitude. Government regulations or laws attempting to enforce sterilization and/or fertility laws will only fuel the earlier sense of self entitlement, and other radical elements which will only build into civil cataclysm. Government regulations, with this in mind, would be wise to be avoided. The only solutions I thus then see are voluntary reduction through choice, activated by plan-global pervasive free access to higher education with the obvious incentives and rewards that higher education brings, as well as the less obvious benefits that can help the whole world. Should this be insoluble, then engineered viral outbreak of a bug that limits everyone without discrimination to only one child could work as well. Such an engineered, otherwise harmless pandemic would cut each new generational population in half until numbers eventually decrease over time to something more sustainable where then a cure or reversal could be released. @ Johnnybalmain: Any rule or action that selects only certain types or groups creates victims. No one likes to be a victim, and anyone that can identify with or empathize with victims can create a cause, later a movement, and possibly even violent revolution against anyone they feel is more entitled than they. For population reductions to work, everyone would need follow the same rule. If everyone were allowed 2 children, population numbers increase slightly, but in the long term stabilize at the current number and remain at the current number without any appreciable decline or impact. If everyone were to only have 1 child per couple, then each generation would decrease by half, exponentially until over 5-6 generations projected out to 300-400 years (if we started now) we'd then be around the 500 million mark. If no one couple has more than one child, no one is more entitled than any other, and there is no fuel for anyone to feel the need to take advantage of, or abuse the free will to have children. If anyone has more than one child, everyone will want to have more than one child, and then we are back to where we are at now. If anyone is forced or made to have zero children, this will give rise to violence, revolution and war. Though everyone is not equal, everyone should be treated equally, for through equal treatment comes fairness, and through fairness benevolence, understanding, and solidarity. Beauty, Peace, Love, Enlightenment, Understanding and Wisdom to all. --Matt Marquis Anything we can conceive, we should also be able to achieve, but, nothing worth having is or should be easy. | ||
Smukhuti Member Post Number: 574 Registered: 06-2009 |
Everyone has human rights to the extent that those human rights are not detrimental to the society and that other individuals rights do not violate. For example, begetting (even 1 baby) in-spite of knowing that the baby could not be provided for with sufficient nutrition, education and the joys of childhood - is it an exercise of human rights...or is it a crime....or just consciousness deficiency? Questions like the one above are difficult questions...with possible answers no one like to hear. That is why the Birth Stop petition is so valuable. It does not care about these difficult questions. It is fair, plain and simple. Following the birth stop petition, it is possible to stop propagation of dangerous consciousness disorders and at the same time have as many as 3 babies per woman. Population declines just by spacing of births. No wonder it has been successful in other worlds. "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." - Albert Einstein | ||
Memo00 Member Post Number: 488 Registered: 03-2004 |
Matt education is a very important part but it is absurd to expect that it alone will be the solution. Population grows faster than the rate at which schools, hospitals, energy plants, etc. can be build. Appealing only to the good will and consciousness of the masses is completely absurd. The measures to reduce population come first and then and only then it will be possible to give education to all, to give all the necessary for a decent life to all without distinction. True freedom, true peace, true equality is absolutely impossible in an overpopulated world. You contradict yourself by saying that it is not possible to enact the measures proposed by the FIGU and at the same time proposing the one child policy. You talk about revolts, terrorism and other things that supposedly would appear, the thing is that if the recommendations that Billy gives would be followed all crime worldwide, all wars, all terrorism, etc. would disappear quickly, how? Look at this: http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/FIGU_Open_Letter_003#World_Peace_and_Multinational_Peace-Fighting_Troops Both, the birth regulation and the peace troops have been proven in other planets and are not just theories, they work. You are against selective sterilization (which is logical and not used without a reason) but propose aleatory massive sterilization??? Why? Just because it is democratic? I respect all human beings and all living creatures in the universe, but i have to say that the masses are incredibly stupid, only following the lead of the wise and the knowledgable can humanity solve its terrible problems. Not doing something just because it would be unpopular or against the will of the mass is just idiotic and leads to the abyss. Salome | ||
Rarena Member Post Number: 675 Registered: 10-2005 |
Education helps by planting a seed in fertile soild if we understand the implications of our actions... and the actions of cause and effect. According to the Plejaren having over five hundred and twenty nine million human beings on this earth we suffer the dire consequences that overpopulation causes: weather anomolies including global warming; due to excessive methane and carbon dioxide generated by our current transportation and waste byproducts, famine; excessive competition for food and a lack of arable land, earthquakes; due to escessively heavy structures, infrastructures and oil usage which distablize the structure of the earth, (oil smooths and stabilizes the tectonic plate movement) war; due to compitition between nations for sustainable food and products for comfort. If we keep this up, by the year 3000 we will have less than two centimeters (.75 inches) per human being to; work, eat food and live . It is exactly due to a lack of education concerning overpopulation that humans soil their own homes and country and must emigrate to other more pleasant, less populated countries... as they did not understand, were generally uneducated about... that, by having too many children they make it immpossible to maintain the same quality of sustainable life which we know in our hearts we enjoy and probably think we deserve. Being logical and harmonious and thinking of others besides ourselves teaches us how to continue living in peace and harmony using logic and reason we understand... a total birthstop... NOW... is the only way to enact this eventual solution and future way of life. Right now it will take sixteen years without births before we will see a turnaround in world events unfolding before us. The longer we take the longer this turnaround time will be... We could put on the blinders and "believe" everything will work out right because we wish it... but that is very nieve thinking and does not really help except to hurt us later due to not being prepared for the effects. Billy in the last round of questions also mentioned this about the birthstop a few days ago. Here is something I've written up procured from our learned professors and educators and the Meier material: A quote from "The Population Bomb" written by Paul Ehrlich in 1968; each baby in its average 70 year life span would consume directly or indirectly: 26,000,000,000 gallons of water 20,000 gallons of gas 10,000 pounds of meat 28,000 pounds of milk $5000 to $8000 on schools $6300 in clothing $7000 in furniture Not to mention housing, employment, other food and vegetables, and the arable land to grow it on. From Meier material; Ptaah and Quetzal: On New Year,s Day 2011, we received from the Plejaren (Ptaah and Quetzal) the actual population number by December 31, 2010 (midnight):8,102,716,701 human beings! When compared with the 7,684,489,285 human beings on December 11, 2007, this means an increase of 375,325 human beings per day, respectively 4.34 human beings per second! When compared with the 7,503,846,002 human beings on December 31, 2005 (midnight), there results an increase of 328,148 human beings per day, respectively 3.8 human beings per second. Every second and increase of 4.3 babies per second generates the future consumption directly or indirectly: 102,000,000,000 gallons of water 80,000 gallons of gas 40,000 pounds of meat 112,000 pounds of milk $20,000 to $32,000 on schools (1970 dollars) $24,000 on clothing (1970 dollars) $21,000 in furniture ( 1970 dollars) housing, employment, other food and the arable land to grow it on in 1970 dollars per second. A SECOND! Imagine the cost in today's dollars! To read a more thorough examination of the subject: http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Special:Petition} | ||
Ix09 Member Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2011 |
1002 signatures are on the Birth Stop petition when I last just checked. It doesn't seem to me that it's working. Besides that, though built on a foundation of some disturbing factual numbers, those factual numbers support logical fallacies, and intractable propositions. 1. Who exactly is supposed to be the governing agent that monitors and enforces this policy? Any one body of government put into such a position will grow fat with greed and sick of corruption while gaining riches from bribes by the rich and powerful who desire special concessions. In addition to this, to create such a governing body with the electronic and human infrastructure to monitor and enforce the laws proposed, the figures in money would absolutely astronomical well beyond anything compared to the figures needed to enact world wide global higher education. With higher education, you require a teachers, and access to information, with a relatively small administrative center. To monitor worldwide fertility, enforce it through sterilization regimes, track and approve petitions for birth, you require a huge bureaucracy with checksums to verify petitioners have not lied or falsified information in their requests, armament and supply of a new police force with vehicles, operations facilities, detention centers, weapons, and all the high level training that goes along with it because current police and security forces are already busy dealing with day to day crime and can't be spared for the extra tasks of laying down enforcement on some birthers. 2. By creating a process where people petition for approval to have children, you create a separate class system still rife with corruption and favoritism. You create a new group of Haves, compared the the larger majority of HaveNots, which will give rise to bitterness, envy, violence, and all the other unspeakable horrors humans are so very capable of doing and acting out whenever they feel there is injustice, whether of not that injustice is real or imagined. 3. This process has worked on other planets? Please point me to the embassy offices where I might apply for a travel visa to see this for myself, and also point me to a travel agency where I might reserve accommodations to see the wonderful places. I will be more than happy to undergo quarantine, or be forced to travel inside a hermetically sealed box so that I cannot harm, threaten, or interact with anyone at any of these fantastic places. Please, if you can produce this information, I will go see these wonderful places for myself immediately. If I cannot go, and return with tourist trinkets, t-shirts, cultural knick-knacks, literature, thousands of photos, and any of the other things I may be able to pick up on such a visit to foreign lands, then, I suspect that no such places actually exist if I am to only take the words and claims on blind faith that such places exist. I may as well accept that Heaven, Hell, Valhalla, Paradise, Uptopia, and all those other mythological places are real if I am to simply just take anyone's word for anything. I am willing to believe in anything I can get my hands on and interact with. If you can produce an angel, a devil, a Greek god, an ancient Egyptian god, a talking golden calf, some dude that walks on water, elves, hobbits, djinn, pixies, smurfs, the flying spaghetti monster, invisible pink unicorn, even extraterrestrial people, whatever, I'll take what I can get my hands on, what I can examine. I am not, and will never be a victim of blind faith, or trust. Blind faith and belief in fanciful creatures, entities, and peoples, has done enough damage to the world already. I have not contradicted myself in any way. My reasoning and logic is sound, but, it seems I am continually met with assertions that may very well have an underlying basis in hard numbers, but through extension and logical fallacy morph into some other doctrine that supports an impossible program that plays favorites. You don't have to preach to me the numbers of world population. I'm quite familiar with the numbers, and I do not deny there is indeed a problem. Spitting out pages of irrefutable verifiable numbers and facts is also a very popular method and smoke screen used by car salesmen, con-men, any anyone else that wants to convince you into believing something that they want you to believe. The hard facts put before any logical fallacy or manipulation are always a useful smoke screen to give any flawed argument legitimacy. If you lack the facility to study and understand psychology, sociology, logic & reason, history, but have a very keen understanding of faith, and like to take people's word for any claim, I can produce a lottery ticket with winning numbers on it that you can check and verify that the numbers are real, and I'll be happy to sell that ticket to you for only a few thousand dollars. I don't want the fame, attention, or problems that come with having a lottery ticket with winning numbers on it. Please note, such a lottery ticket would be a complete con game fueled by your desire to suspend your disbelief in hopes of achieving personal gain, and the ticket would indeed be a real ticket with real winning numbers on it, but, the ticket would be for a future drawing, where the numbers are from a winning in the past. Nowhere have I said that the ticket itself is a winning ticket. I have only said that it has winning numbers on it, though, those numbers are no longer valid. I've been entirely honest with you too, so, you really should consider me trustworthy enough to give me your money in exchange for a lottery ticket that will be worthless. Please don't rely on faith and simple belief. You may as well go back to being a Christian, Muslim, or following some other well established faith like Hinduism which can trace it's roots with veracity back some 6,000 years and more. The Hindu gods also had spaceships according to the literature, if that's what you really like, and it's not really all that bad of a faith system compared to some others. Besides that, they came up with the Kama Sutra, so, there's loads of fun to be had with exploring Tantric practices. :D Please understand, by no means am I promoting that anyone follow any faith system. Some are better than others like Hinduism, but, they all fail where they require faith. Any system that requires faith needs be questioned and given concern. Any system that requires faith, no matter the beauty of the message or supporting body of written work produced by a single person, is essentially no more correct than any other religion. Never have Faith. Only have Certainty. Faith is believing in something that can't be proved true. Certainty is certain, and undeniable. I agree that overpopulation is a Certainty. This can be seen. This can be verified from several sources. This is no refuting that overpopulation is a problem. Instituting a governing body that gives preference and approval to people applying for birth is not a solution, but a recipe for turning up the heat boiling over on an already steaming cauldron. It would be easier to just let everything run it's own natural course where war, famine, ecological collapse due to overpressure on the biosphere, and all the other great apocalyptic favorites take their tolls on civilization. Creating a governing body, no matter how well intentioned, will only add to the problem in speeding up the violent destruction of civilization. I've already had my say regarding the solution of education and limiting birth to 1 child per couple, but, for people that want to believe in things that cannot be proven true, for the faith driven who are not open to real reason, my arguments are at a loss and fall on deaf ears. Even if through some miracle occurrence populations were reduced down to the 500,000,000 mark, please pause to think and consider that the worldwide population didn't get over the 500 million mark until the 1700s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates Now consider all the horrors and atrocities of great wars fought for political control, power, or even an idea up until the 1700s. The Crusades come to mind. Ghengis Khan spilled a few drops of blood in his day. The peoples of South America practiced human sacrifice and blood rites until the 1500s. The Romans Empire though full of great ideas, philosophy, and art, built itself atop the bones, slavery, and blood of it's conquests. In China and Japan, tons of battles, wars, feuds, and other violence is all extremely well documented for thousands of years. What's my point? When worldwide population was below 500million, not everything was unicorns, rainbows, and dancing pixies. There were an abundance of resources, plenty of land, and a relatively small population, but, there were still great epic battles, wars, atrocity, and horrors. Not everything is in the numbers. Human ambition for power, control, feelings of self entitlement and elevation above any one other person, and the desire for more than what is necessary or practical for happiness, self security, and health needs be removed. No one select group should profit or suffer. If anyone profits, and suffers, all of it should be distributed evenly across the whole of human civilization. We are all human. We are all living on this planet. We are all responsible. We should all share this responsibility evenly in caring for our brothers and sisters all over the planet who are also human regardless of who they are, both sharing the burden, and benefiting all people, all humans. Placing blame and punishment on others who may lack your facility for judgment, intelligence, education, and reason is irresponsible in ducking out of being held accountable for the actions of all humanity. You are human. So am I, and so is everyone else. We are all the same yet different in our own ways, but united together, holding ourselves responsible for all of us, and not just select groups of perceived good and bad, not shirking out of the responsibility we have for all of each other with some quick fix that creates exceptions and favoritisms, we can do it. Unfortunately such idealism is impossible, and when presenting solutions based on logic with firm reasoning, I'm given reply by statements filled with nonsense faith based dogma. Faith will destroy you, and Faith will destroy us. I beg you please, for your enlightenment, education, and self actualization study the sciences, disciplines, and histories offered at any university. Study, learn, and see. Stay away from any faith based directives and learn to question yourself. Do not fall prey to thinking that you are more special than your brother human squatting and living in utter poverty and filth in an African shanty town, or any other ghetto worldwide. Be responsible and reliant for yourself, and all your fellow humans for through extension, are also you. Lose your selfishness, and desire for personal gain. If we cannot respect, help, educate, love and embrace the lowest most wretched, backwards, wrong thinking and needy of our fellow humans, why should we expect any thing better for ourselves? Anything we can conceive, we should also be able to achieve, but, nothing worth having is or should be easy. | ||
Johnnybalmain Member Post Number: 132 Registered: 11-2007 |
So you believe that this right comes from incorrect thinking, does this not mean that it really aint a right at all but just a erroness belief? It is very difficult for the new generation to change when their minds are continually poisoned by their older ones, unloading all their beliefs and hates onto their babies. All this baggage passing must be stopped. If there was a way to isolate the tormented hate passing parent from the innocent little sponge then we would have a chance. Maybe. Peace John | ||
Ramirez Member Post Number: 583 Registered: 06-2008 |
Hi Randy & IX09, It all makes sense but how to reach all ? In this age of mass information not such a challenge yet we see before us Freud's descriptive label "denial" playing itself out each day in the mass media. What some celebrity said, who might win the big game, the royal wedding, how the stockmarket is holding up .... trivial pursuit, it's yours for the asking till one day that option will no longer be available. How so few see through the big game  Cheers. | ||
Ix09 Member Post Number: 10 Registered: 03-2011 |
Please explain "incorrect" thinking. The term "incorrect" can be entirely objective. the term "incorrect" can also be misused, and is commonly misused so by people of religious faith who have little or no classical higher education in reason and logic. Where also have I proposed any kind of hate as a solution? The solutions I have given treat everyone equally and are all inclusive where no one is hurt or given elevation or privilege over any one other. Everyone wins, and everyone is responsible for all of humanity, because the greatest of us, down to the very lowest of us are all human. A rough, ugly diamond in the dirt can be just as valuable and even more than a fine polished cut example shining in a jeweler's display. All of us are human, and not one of us is better, or more deserving above any other. Even diamonds that are too flawed for primary use in jewelry find valuable application in industry machinery, or are broken down into tiny accent diamonds that are still beautiful when clustered with many others. If you cannot treat the very least and low of your brother and sister humans with the same respect, opportunity, and rights as even the very highest of esteemed, you are surely no better than the least among you. How is this filled with hate? The Birth Stop petition is full of opportunity for hate. It creates exception. It threatens. It tears families apart. It mutilates people and even kills them. It sets up a hostile police state that will enforce policy with force and violence. People of prestige, power, wealth and greed will continue and even magnify their evils. I have said one birth for every couple, and education for everyone. Everyone is restricted, and everyone benefits. How is this hate? How is this incorrect? This is all inclusive allowing no one more profit or privilege over anyone else with everyone sharing responsibility evenly. How is this hate? How is this "incorrect" thinking? Anything we can conceive, we should also be able to achieve, but, nothing worth having is or should be easy. | ||
Memo00 Member Post Number: 489 Registered: 03-2004 |
Matt As you may have realized it is not possible in the present world, with the present state of things, with the immense corruption and with the incredibly ignorant and greedy governments we have to do the right thing, that is to regulate births globally. We can only sow the seed so that slowly but surely the problem of overpopulation is recognized as the worst threat to humankind and to all living creatures and then, finally the logical measures will be taken all around the globe. As i explained before in an overpopulated world it is absolutely impossible to educate everyone, it is absolutely impossible to give even the minimum necessary for a decent life to all. Money will eventually disappear, only one world government will exist. In 800 years the world will be very different, Earth human beings will be open to the true Spirit teaching, but all begins now, step by step, day by day, as the result of what each and everyone one of us will do until then. I dontīcare if you BELIEVE that what iīm saying isnīt true, just because you cannot see it with your eyes or touch it with your hands. You think that your logic is superior and even think that you have to educate us when you are the one that has very much things to learn. I donīt believe in anything, i donīt believe in god, i donīt believe in anything supernatural, but I KNOW that my true self is the Spirit and that it is immortal. Tell me what do you KNOW that makes so wise, so intelligent, so logical? You are so closed in you materialist thoughts that you cannot see things with clarity and objectivity. You can BELIEVE if you want that we all are some fools who are followers of some cult, i donīt care. If instead you would show at least some minimum modesty, and accept at least the possibility that there may be some truth in all that has been said, you would be able to discover many things that you havenīt even dreamed about. But that is up to you. On my part i donīt have anything else to say as i understand it would be a complete waste of time to try to explain more to you and a waste of bytes in the server memory. Salome (Peace) | ||
Ix09 Member Post Number: 11 Registered: 03-2011 |
@ Memo00: I agree that most of what I've suggested is indeed impossible in today's political climate where it's difficult for even members of the UN to agree on even sometimes simple things. I do, however suggest and propose such solution as alternative to the other suggested solution of the Birth Stop Petition. The proposed BSP may work in magical lands in far off places that we will never see in our life times, but, we here on Earth don't have the benefit of all the wondrous technologies, and states of awakened evolution peoples in these magical lands in far off places have as means for free use. We are, and will be for quite some time, the greedy selfish, power hungry, violent human beings that we have demonstrated such a proficiency for over thousands of years of history. The BSP will not work here on Earth for all the reasons I've stated before. True, there are some amongst us that strive for a greater state of being beyond the common consciousness, but, regardless of how elevated in consciousness any one person, or group may reach, we, as humans, should only measure our worth by the least amongst ourselves. It's irresponsible to set yourself apart from your fellow humans. Self reliance, self responsibility, and self accountability are great things, but, they are not the stopping point. Beyond those are empathy and the toiling personal sacrifice of helping all those who are sick of mind, sick of body, and assisting those without means to educate them, teach them to see, teach them how to elevate themselves, no matter their station, sickness, or past mistakes. Is this not exactly what the benefactor aliens are themselves doing with us? Since we all inhabit this planet as human beings all rules should be all inclusive, elevating no one group, no one people above another, excluding no one. Is this such a difficult thing to see and embrace? It doesn't take a crystal ball or a time machine to be able to accurate say that things will be different 800 or 1000 years in the future. For better, or for worse, I agree, things will indeed be different. I'd love to see money go away. Wherever there is money, there will always be poverty. Without money, and without superstition and religion, this planet could be a really wonderful place. I'm not denying that I have many things to learn. I'm not denying that I'm fallible. I'm only human, and I'm happy to grow to self evolve and become something better. Part of this growth is questioning everything, including myself. I ask questions. Obviously my questions, and statements through application if reason backed by education and understanding of history, sociology, and psychology, especially since my questions run counter to some other already established dogma that you favor and embrace without question has upset you. I apologize if I've upset you. I mean you no disrespect. I beg you, however to use your wonderful mind, to open your eyes, and as questions yourself without taking everything on faith. Faith can be a wonderful thing for some people. How can hundreds of Millions of Muslims and Christians be wrong eh? The thing is, they are. You ask me what I KNOW? I know that faith is a trap. Anything that relies on faith to sell a product, whether that be eternal life in Heaven, pimping it in Paradise with a thousand virgins, or visiting far off magical mystery lands through conveyance of superior technology, it's all a trap. He or she that can produce the goods will get my business. All I've ever seen are empty promises and sales pitches about rewards that can only be gotten in some far off future time, and with religion, this is usually after death. Faith is a trap. This I know. If a market promises me vegetables, I expect to be eating vegetables. If they can't show me any vegetables, not even one tomato, I'll go to another market. I'm not closed to new ideas and concepts at all. My mind is very open to new things. You might even say I'm something of an adventurer I'm so open. I'm swam with sharks, and dolphins, jumped out of airplanes, sailed high seas in raging storms even getting washed overboard on a 30' sloop, and have a passion for racing motorcycles my last big wreck going at 110mph. I do cliff diving, rock climbing, and long trek wilderness hiking far away from all civilization. I practice meditation. I study, I read, I think, and I always question. I never stop challenging myself or pushing to learn new things. I've finished writing 2 novels in a series too (unpublished as of yet). I'm very open, and I'll even stick my toes into some faith, but, I expect that faith and trust to be returned. As far as seeing truth, I will see truth where truth is self evident. Billy has some beautiful philosophies and ideas. Quite a bit of it is simply wonderful. I've great respect for the work. I, however, reserve the right to question, and present alternatives. I accept the truth where the truth is self evident. Where there is other truth and i can't find mention of it, I'll point it out where I see it. Anyone of any enlightened state will tell you that there is more than one truth. Some truths are greater than others, while some only hold relevance to certain times, situations, peoples involved or other variables. Often there is more than one truth. Only the blind, misguided, or fanatically faithful to some faith who are closed minded to any other alternatives that don't come from 'official' sources will dispute that. As far as discovering things I've never dreamed about, well, that's an awful big challenge since I'm an artist and writer who is very tuned into using and facilitating fantastic application of imagination. I'd give you links to my work or even send you a copy of one of my unpublished novels as proof, but, I don't think the moderators would approve of the posting of that information. Ask the moderators if they can give you my email address, and if they ask me if it's ok, I'll be happy to exchange such. I'm sorry you feel saying anything more to me would be a waste of time. You sound upset, and I apologize if anything I've said has put you in such a state. I mean no disrespect. I simply put things to question. Is it wrong to question something that appears broken, or suggest how something might work better with more efficiency? I seek understanding, and where I see a better solution to something I speak out. I wish you peace. I wish you wisdom. I wish you love. and I also wish you understanding. --Matt Marquis Anything we can conceive, we should also be able to achieve, but, nothing worth having is or should be easy. | ||
Bronzedesk Member Post Number: 9 Registered: 01-2011 |
It sounds like me you are damned if you do and damned if you don't! I applaud your clarity and sincerity but I myself prefer kind of the middle way best of all !!! Kind of like in the the old taoist saying: If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading. Lao Tzu | ||
Memo00 Member Post Number: 490 Registered: 03-2004 |
Matt life is full of surprises and the only way you cannot be surprised by the marvels of Creation is by being jailed by your own thoughts. If you know faith is poison then you know something, but you still have to learn to discern with more clarity. Billyīs teachings arenīt faith but are wisdom. Photos and videos can be faked, one can create all kinds of phantasy worlds as complex as you want, but you cannot fake true wisdom, when you learn to distinguish what is true knowledge, what is an eternal and fundamental truth, then all doubt dissipates. It is something completely different from belief. The truth is that there only exists one Truth, but that it is impossible for a human being to comprehend it all. So we can only grasp parts of it. What is true, what is real is that that never changes. If you are an artist then maybe you can do something to raise attention to the overpopulation problem. You can send me something of your work if you want to: memoweb01@hotmail.com (but donīt expect me to read your novels as i only read books from time to time when something really calls my attention and when i have the time) I hope you do well, it is good to know you arenīt so closed in your mind. Salome | ||
Eddieamartin Member Post Number: 183 Registered: 08-2010 |
Ix09 (re;Post#11) Hello Matt, You bring up many good points, you obviously strive to exercise logic and have truly done it well. I can't help but see that you have not researched all aspects and perspectives of Creation's logic, love for all of it's spiritforms and their evolution and thus the Recommendations geared for our present state on earth as a whole. When one reads the petition for birth control, one must be in possession of all the relative and pertinent information to its regard in order to view things from Creation's perspective. The incarnated Nokodemion (Billy Meier) is teaching Creation's teachings and not his own. Creation is concerned with the evolution of our spiritform, the experience the personality will confront and the ability of the parents and society to provide the ideal conditions, love, guidance and upbringing of the child. Speaking of the child, before we conceive any judgment or idea about "every" person's right to be equal in everything (not logical), we should consider the child. The state I live in is willing to give everyone a driver's license....as long as they can prove to the state that they know how to drive in harmony with the rest of society. We want to make sure that drunks, for example (disregard for laws of the road), are kept from any driving privileges. So it is not logical that just because someone is a human being that they should be able to drive, equally as the rest of us, even though they are drunks or drug addicts or that disregard the law and the safety of pedestrians and other drivers. Also, "faith" is defined best as an "assumption." Unlike religions, Creation gives us evidence that we can experience, ponder, evaluate, consider and gain cognition from. Therein is no faith or belief to be found, nor do these two words have legs to stand on when the evidence Creation provides is tangible and uplifting. Use your gift of questioning, research and analysis towards understanding Creation's point of view and everything Creation has recommended in its considering our present state on earth as a whole. Merely reading the wording or content of the birth petition, through the eyes of our own understanding, knowledge and level of present spirituality and not responsibly search, ponder and analyze what Creation has to say and then weighing the logic to the offered measures in the petition is to not exercise self responsibility in confirming the reality of Creation and thereby no different than belief. Salome, Eddie [7:-) | ||
Justsayno Member Post Number: 356 Registered: 10-2009 |
Hi Matt, do you think the current system of using vaccines to cause infertility is a way better option? Maybe the WHO can get the UN to start spraying people with this stuff who have no access to birth control? No one will need birth control after such an event, problem solved... Or we can wait until such times as grade 9ers are discussing the environment and think that pollution is the number one cause of the world's problems. Start introducing the overpopulation concept to elementary school students, as they are the ones who will ultimately decide how this is going to be handled. But it would probably be impossible to implement such a program into the schools. Education starts at home. Good, better, best. May you never rest, until your good is better, and your better best. | ||
Johnnybalmain Member Post Number: 133 Registered: 11-2007 |
Hi Mat, I see that through establishing a birth stop plan, fully explained and revealed to all would be treating everyone equally. Many problems will arise. Each and every problem that does arise comes about through incorrect thinking from a human mind,in my humble opinon. The perception that another is receiving preferential treatment is a thought used to mask one's own inner egotistical desires and wants. Atleast in the case where all rules and conditions are applied equally. I totally agree with you about education being the key. So how do we get past the need for the older indoctrinated ones to exert their influence upon the younger ones to become one of them. Education totally devoid of influentual bias so as to extablish free thought and nuetral positive problem solving might be a cause worth battling for. All the best Mat I enjoy this forum and all who donate. Although some of these long posts do test my attention span. Something I am trying to improve on. Peace John | ||
Ix09 Member Post Number: 12 Registered: 03-2011 |
@ Justsayno: I disagree with any proposed solution that suggests sterilization of any group. However, for the sake of exercise, let's examine your proposal. You propose to sterilize large groups of people who don't have access to birth control. OK. By sterilize them, this sounds like it's a punishment for a crime; the crime of unregulated procreation. Now, there are all sorts of levels of crime. These people you propose to punish don't have access to birth control, so, you think they should be punished by sterilization. Would it not be a BIGGER crime to have unregulated procreation in places that DO have access to birth control? I'm pretty sure that unregulated population growth in places that do have access to birth control would definitely be a bigger crime than procreating when there is no access to birth control. So, now we know who the bigger criminals are and who we should target for this campaign of sterilization you propose. Every single person of every single modern industrialized nation would then have to pay the price for this crime and get sterilized, because unregulated procreation WITH access to birth control would be a bigger crime. This means that everyone in Europe, America, Australia, Japan, China, and every other part of the world that has access to birth control would have to be sterilized for this bigger crime of unregulated procreation with access to birth control. As you say; problem solved. Any time you select one type of group for sterilization, if examined close enough, you will find a different group or a different argument for some other group that might deserve sterilization even more. This brings to question; Who gets to make the powerful choice about who and what groups get sterilized? How about we give the Japanese the choice of who gets sterilized? Maybe we can give the Germans the choice since they've got plenty of experience with sterilization in World War II? Possibly the Koreans? Russia? The Jews might like to have a say in the matter too? Who gets to make the choice? No, this is entirely unmanageable, amoral, and unacceptable. First and foremost I recommend education as described in earlier posts. I have, however, also suggested middle ground. The middle ground proposes an engineered virus that infects every single person on the planet, that makes it possible for everyone to only have ONE child. After someone has their ONE child, the virus then sterilizes them. This effects EVERYONE. No one gets preference, no one gets all the blame. We ALL share the responsibility, and we ALL benefit. No one has their free will to procreate taken completely away, only restricted. For every 2 people, only 1 child would then get born. If those people are incapable of raising that child with proper education, health, and opportunity, then by all means, there will be people all over the planet more than qualified and happy to take on a second child to raise with love, adoration, and every opportunity possible. With one child for every 2 people worldwide, populations would decrease exponentially generation by generation, where census numbers worldwide could achieve the 500 million mark in 300-400 years. At that time, the virus could be reversed, cured, or re-engineered to allow 2 or 3 births. Perhaps by then, in 300-400 years, we'll be wiser. In regard to introducing the problem of overpopulation to school children, I very much agree that this would be a very good thing. Instead, however, of just talking about it with 9th graders, why not talk about it EVERY year? The same thing I think should be done with gender conduct, relationships, and civility to everyone regardless their gender, regardless their station, regardless their illness, or past history. Too many women are abused because of poor upbringing and horrid education as it applies to interpersonal relationships. Yearly discussion of these major topics all throughout the school years until graduation could present a more empowered, activated, civilized, empathic, considerate next generation that's well aware of the responsibility they bear with over population. I apologize to everyone for writing such long posts, but, this is a very important issue that should not be taken lightly. No select groups should be singled out to bear the weight of everyone's responsibility. Blaming some other group for the problem is irresponsible and shameful. We are all human. We are all on this planet. We all need to share the blame, and the responsibility. Anything we can conceive, we should also be able to achieve, but, nothing worth having is or should be easy. | ||
Smukhuti Member Post Number: 575 Registered: 06-2009 |
Matt Marquis, ---- "The BSP will not work here on Earth for all the reasons I've stated before." The most practical expectation of us earthlings is to continue with our painfully slow march to declining birth rates and do nothing about the criminal neglect of quality of life in favor of appeasing everyone's false sense of "human right". In a sense you are right about the practicality of the method as far as its chance for immediate implementation is concerned, but that does not mean we should stop disseminating the knowledge of this method. For e.g., the spirit teaching is so heretical to the religions that it is impractical to expect fast and widespread acceptance here in earth. The purpose of the spirit teaching is not to appease anyone's sense of ego or false sense of reality, rather to have a bottom-up effect in dissemination of knowledge when people like you and I discover it. It is being disseminated because it is the truth. Similarly, it is understandable that the methods in the birth stop petition are considered harsh and impractical to the majority of humans because nothing more can be expected of them or their false sense of "human rights". It is being introduced not because it is most likely to be adapted by a planet full of humans with wrong understanding of human rights, but because it is the best method known to a civilization with true sense of "human rights". It is simply a suggestion - "look, here is the best method which would decline the population within a short period of time; and you do not have much time". 1200 signature is sufficiently high and quite encouraging given that probably less than few tens of thousands are aware of the Meier case, even fewer have ever bothered to delve into it, and only a fraction of those have discovered the petition at FoM. I belong to a group that sends off the birth stop petition to various world leaders, NGO's and philanthropists, and so far the response had been low, but it has been seen that world is more mature than we expect. People are slowly waking up. ---- "When worldwide population was below 500million, not everything was unicorns, rainbows, and dancing pixies. " The population up until the 1600's was about 500 million, but there were wars - agreed. But the wars were necessary in the first place to forge empires, which in turn were a requirement of amass wealth and resources. The possibilities of per capita productivity of the non-industrialized world were much less than the per capita productivity of the world post industrial revolution. Had the population number not risen so dramatically post the proliferation of technology, the per capita productivity and energy usage (energy usage==wealth) would have been sufficiently high to enable a more uniformly prosperous world. Plus, a large percent of wars had religious motives. So much so were the role of religion in instigating wars, that while Christian Europe and the Arab world were busy engaging each other in Crusades and Jihads, India, even under the rule of a Muslim minority, continued to be the second largest economy of the world - with the highest per capita income. Had the population number not risen so dramatically post the proliferation of technology, the relevance of religion in the resulting prosperous and educated world would have been much less than it is now. Of course, the odd wars still would have been avoidable due our nature that stems from the genetic manipulation, but three out of the five major cause for wars that threaten now would have been minimized - i) Exploiting other nation states for their natural resources, ii) Securing strategic energy supplies located in another nation state, and iii) Religion. ---- "1. Who exactly is supposed to be the governing agent that monitors and enforces this policy? " It is a world-wide effective policy, and it is expected that the world governments come together and agree upon the modalities, or better, a multi-national enforcement agency (not like the current form of toothless, powerless, U.N. that we see) like the one Meier suggest for peace keeping. Even a global 1-child policy would require similar arrangements in place. The alternative is to do nothing, and wait for the population to reach 529 million in about 1000+ years. ---- "2. By creating a process where people petition for approval to have children, you create a separate class system still rife with corruption and favoritism. " Class system? Of "have babies" and "have not babies"? Okay, here is the thing: What is more important? * The right of human beings to beget - or the right of one of more unborn child to be brought up in an environment where the nutritional and educational needs are taken care of and the childhood is spent in a loving atmosphere and care of loving parent and free of life-threatening heredity disease? * The right of human beings to beget - or the right of citizens of planet earth to have enough food, fresh water and minerals for leading a healthy and prosperous life? * The right of human beings to beget - or right of every citizen of planet earth to live in a planet with moderate environment and the right of not suffering the 75% or so climatic catastrophe which are caused by the pollution ensuing from overpopulation? That means there are 3 times more natural disasters triggered by human activity than of purely natural occurrence. These catastrophes are taking the lives of hundreds of thousands, and are poised to take lives of millions in the not-so-distant future. * The right of human beings to beget - or right of every citizen of planet earth to live in a world with lower prevalence of diseases including cancer, which is mostly caused by pollution? As Eddiemartin said, the permission to beget is akin to asking for driving license. Moreover, the 7 year cycle would be redundant once the desired level is reached. Do you propose that a society should not put checks and balances in order to ensure long term sustainability? Every human being are equal - okay, but should the expression of equality be in letting some human being commit acts which are not in agreement with the long term betterment of society? ^ Couple X has 5 babies - none of them go to school and all of them are malnutritioned - we let go couple X unpunished because couple X is equal to any other couple. That is wrong interpretation of equality. ^ Then couple Y has 5 babies - they are well provided for, but consume food and energy equivalent to 50 babies in developing nation - we let go couple Y unpunished because couple Y being rich, have the right to beget as many children as they can.Yet another wrong interpretation of equality. ---- "3. This process has worked on other planets?" This is something which cannot be verified. But the question is not to simply follow what some ET's are advising. Do your math. If the birth stop petition were to be activated, instead of the alternative approach of 1 child policy, the former would be more effective in faster reduction of population. While implementing a global 1 child policy would decrease the fertility rate, it would not be able to immediately stop the increase in population owing to population momentum. On the other hand, the methods in the birth stop petition would ensure population depletion from the 1st year itself. This is in-spite the fact that birth stop methodology places a limit of three babies rather than one. We wait for the natural decrease in population - and we are dammed. Wait till the energy crisis hits us. "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." - Albert Einstein | ||
Ix09 Member Post Number: 13 Registered: 03-2011 |
@ Smukhuti: FINALLY! Thank You! Where have you been? I am pleased that finally someone has come up with some intelligent and reasonable debate and return against my propositions. You have some very good points and I'm enthusiastically grateful for the time you've taken to return some intelligent well thought and well framed discourse as opposed to parroting dogma like an unthinking puppet. I'm overjoyed that there is indeed someone else here capable of using their mind objectively. I will give your returns appropriate thought and consideration, and reply in kind with agreement where I find agreement, and disagreement where I still have problems. Thank you again for a point by point reply. You are absolutely magnificent, even if I still have points to disagree with on topic. Even if we cannot resolve disagreement on a point between us, you have my profound respect for being the first to give me anything worth pause and consideration. Thank you. As said, I'll return additional reply after proper consideration. --Matt Marquis Anything we can conceive, we should also be able to achieve, but, nothing worth having is or should be easy. | ||
Justsayno Member Post Number: 357 Registered: 10-2009 |
Ix09, it's quite obvious you cannot read sarcasm through my post. Hell why stop at spraying people who have no access to birth control, spray them all (today would be a good time to spray those at the vatican, lol). That way no one would feel left out. Which is the bigger crime? Allowing our kind to destroy our earth or allowing a few choice people to render humans infertile? Since there is currently no form of vaccine that you suggest that enables people to have one child then renders them infertile, how is this to be implemented? For the sake of argument, let's say your vaccine is available today. Will it be administered as a flu vaccine, with no knowledge of what it does? Or do you take the risk of telling everyone so most will opt out? Education is the key? My point was that overpopulation is NOT talked about as a cause of environmental problems currently in the school system. And you don't seem to understand how hard this is going to be to make it part of the education system. All I'm saying is that it only takes one person to bring it up in converstion. So let's get out there and talk about it so it becomes common knowledge. Currently the radiation levels on earth may spark a world wide birth stop due to not wanting mutation of our species. Therefore the birth stop can be declared "humane". Good, better, best. May you never rest, until your good is better, and your better best. | ||
Ix09 Member Post Number: 14 Registered: 03-2011 |
@ Justsayno: 1. It only becomes quite obvious once you say you've been being sarcastic. "Spray them all"? When you say THEM, that tells me that you feel that for some reason, real or imagined, you think you are special and don't need sterilization yourself. How many children do you have already? I have ZERO. I'm doing my part, and I'm 40. How would you feel about mandatory sterilization of everyone that's a fanatic for any cause? Fanaticism is a negative illness and should be removed, yes? Everyone in groups like this would then get put under examination. Your posts, even if you say they are sarcastic, could very well be looked at as fanatical. You would be sterilized. 2. I don't suggest a vaccine. I never have. I have suggested an engineered virus that spreads worldwide (preferably airborne, or even through simple contact) infecting every single person on the planet. It's entirely possible as demonstrated by development of other viral weapons. This one, however would be harmless in every way until it is triggered/activated by birth where it then renders the host chemically sterile like most temporary birth control measures. This allows for everyone to be treated evenly so that no corrupt government can make corrupt choices. Everyone still gets chance, even if they are unfit, and once they have child, they are done. Many people who have led self destructive controversial lives come to enlightenment once they experience the beauty of looking on the face of their own child. They turn their lives around and finally become productive and responsible. This has happened in the past, and will continue to happen. If you completely take away someone's potential for birth, you may as well just kill them outright, because many without anything left to lose will become human bullets out of personal feeling of anger, robbery, inhumanity, and injustice. They will become army of violent terrorists to clothe the world in fear, violence, and blood. So long as someone has feeling that they can still at least have one child, or be taken up with time in caring for the one child they make which will be all the more precious since it is only child they will have, such risk of blood is mitigated. 3. Education is indeed very important. You insult my intelligence in saying that I "don't seem to understand how hard this is going to be ..." Have I not said time and again; Nothing worth having is and should not be expected to be easy? It's even part of my signature statement. Go back to my first post here in the overpopulation forum. My main argument has always been for education. I always bring the subject up in groups, because education is a solution for many more problems than just overpopulation. 4. I'd love to see your data from independently correlating sources that show this indication of radiation levels. Do you even know what radiation is, the different types of radiation, and what the effects, dangers, and safety margins are for each kind of radiation? Too many people with an irrational panicky lady complex talk about "radiation" when they really understand nothing about it. Anything we can conceive, we should also be able to achieve, but, nothing worth having is or should be easy. | ||
Smukhuti Member Post Number: 577 Registered: 06-2009 |
Matt Marquis, My reply took long time because your posts are long and I had to wait till I find much over an hour of my time in order to make sense of the gist of your queries and frame the answer. My job requires me to work on computers, prepare presentation, be on telephone etc. (the usual mundane stuff) and I dislike working on computers at home. Had it not being the worthlessness of the mainstream media (the good stuffs are there in the internet only) and the constraint of researching the Meier material over the internet, I would have love to stay away from computers. You can post long stories if you wish but I would simply dislike spending another hour in framing yet another long reply to your post. I do not wish to get into debate with you just to prove you wrong or to resolve disagreement between us. There are certain opinions that develop out of thoughts and feelings the roots of which runs deep in the mind and the same cannot be changed by hammering of counter statements. There is no harm in disagreement. Bottom line is â I have made my point and I do not need to reply to your each and every post, especially if the content of those posts are nothing more than re-phrased content of any previous post. And I do not understand why the forum members here, who overcame a carefully engineered suppression of anything related to the Meier case and managed to find this forum, are deemed by you as lacking objectivity and reasoning. Perhaps it is your time for self-reflection. But I could not say that there could be black sheeps in the forum as mentioned in contact 376. "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." - Albert Einstein | ||
Ix09 Member Post Number: 15 Registered: 03-2011 |
@ Smukhuti: I understand your position and stance. For you, and everyone else, please try to understand that I am not here as an enemy or agitator. I am not addressing disagreement for the sake of disagreement, trying to foment doubt, be disruptive for the sake of disruption, or instigating argument for the sake of any trouble. If anything, I am here as a friend. When I first contacted Michael Horn, I was quite clear in stating that even if Billy were proved to be a complete fake beyond doubt, the message as a whole is beautiful and he'd still have my profound respect for the message alone that's been worked on for half a century. How many faithful followers would leave, their faith shattered, if Billy was proved beyond a doubt to be a complete fake? I'm not saying that Billy is a fake either, nor do i have any aims toward trying to prove so. I'm here as a friend. You may think of me as devil's advocate if you will, because, if I, as a friend, can ask these questions, surely true enemies could go about instigating trouble with malicious intent. My intent is not malicious. I aim to point out problems, and present solutions to those problems where solutions present themselves. You may notice that I've confined posting activity to the overpopulation segment here and am not running rampant all over the forum as an enemy would in trying to stir anything up. Overpopulation is an important topic, and through examination of the proposed solutions there are indeed problems such that the rest of the world apart and away from FIGU can and will use these problems to their advantage in any aims or purpose towards painting a target on FIGU. For instance, the core group of FIGU is German speaking, and learning to speak German is encouraged for those who have no faculty with the language. True, the SSSC is not in Germany, but, the association is there. For all those who remember their history, when you put the words German, and Sterilization together, you come up with some rather unpleasant images. Is this the kind of association FIGU wants for the rest of the world to have of it? This is one of the reasons I argue so strongly against any language proposing sterilization. Do you want the rest of the world to take such associations and twist them horribly into images completely out of context? Using language that promotes sterilization while encouraging German, paints a huge target of opportunity for your enemies. Your enemies will not fight fair. I am here as a friend, a friend that can point out problems like the above, and alternative solutions that can be put in place. I'm genuinely sympathetic, and interested in the message, but, I will take a practical, objective, and critical approach. Though the criticisms and disagreements I put forth, and the questions I ask may be considered counter, or heretical, the intent is not for ill. I wish all of you the best in peace, understanding, and wisdom. --Matt Marquis Anything we can conceive, we should also be able to achieve, but, nothing worth having is or should be easy. |
