| Author |
Message |
   
Ilkka
New member
Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 09:48 am: | 
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Hi everyone,
I would like someone - preferably with more information about Meier's teachings - to explain what it actually means that animals aren't aware of themselves. I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that, for example, an animal's suffering is compareable to a computer's error report (that is, it would be ethically meaningless), because animal suffering has been used by Meier as a part of an argument. And then there was the story I've read of a Plejaran (or some other ET) accidentally crushing a deer or something while landing her ship in the woods and feeling really sad afterwards. Was this because she felt guilty of having disturbed nature's order or was she actually feeling empathy for the creature, just as she would for a human being?
If the latter case is true, and animal life indeed has value (perhaps equal value with human life - and with pure ethical-philosophical reasoning there's actually no reason to assume otherwise) this would, in a way, contradict Meier's writings where he states that eating meat and dairy products is acceptable. Even if we really do "need" this protein he speaks of (if I remember and understand correctly), wouldn't it be incredibly selfish to take another living and feeling being's life just because of that? And because the Plejarans allegedly grow their meat from cells and Mr. Meier himself speaks in favor of genetic manipulation of plants partly because we wouldn't "have to" slaughter animals for food anymore, there really seems to be something objectionable in our current way of getting meat.
My question is this; exactly how objectionable is killing animals for food (or any other similar reason)? What is the value of the life of a cow, or a pig, or a chickhen or any other animal we kill for food? To me it seems like Meier is saying, "killing and torturing animals is bad, but not bad enough so we should stop doing it", which seems a bit absurd.
Anyone, please enlighten me! |
Michael
Member
Post Number: 387
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 04:50 pm: |
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Hi Ilkka,
I don't know if I can add anything to the premise that animals aren't aware of themselves. It seems to me that it means that they don't have the same type of consciousness that humans do, that they don't think and make distinctions and decisions based on thoughts but rather operate on pre-determined natural instincts.
It's clear to me that all animals are capable of feeling pain and suffering though they wouldn't have comparative past and/or future "thoughts" as we know them associated with the suffering.
I would think that Semjase felt bad about causing the suffering and/or death of the deer but not in the same way as she would have for a human being.
There definitely is a distinction made between the value of a human and an animal life. It is only the illogical and extreme (usually vegetarian) individuals and groups like PETA that equate the killing of chickens, for example, with killing human beings. These same people often unconditionally support abortion but don't want people to eat fish or kill flys and cockroaches.
Is it "selfish" when a bear eats a fish or deer or when a cat eats a mouse? Are humans (arguably the most highly evolved life forms in the universe) less entitled to feed themselves than the lesser evolved species? Perhaps you may have an argument with nature! In reality, the world is like a 24 hour-a-day restaurant with things constantly eating each other, from the simplest organisms to the most complex, from birth through death. This is part of a naturally (Creationally) determined, intricate mechanism that perpetuates life. We may have emotional reactions about it, perhaps based on, or influenced by, anthropomorphic characterizations or portrayals of animals in cartoons, as stuffed toys, etc.
There is a distinction between killing an animal and torturing one. Ideally, there should be no torturing and unnecessary suffering inflicted upon the animals in our food chain (or for any other reason.) That doesn't mean that we should, even with humane means of killing food animals, rely on them for nourishment.
In the course of evolution we can do as the Plejarans do, grow our meat-protein. This probably wouldn't take so long to accomplish if there wasn't a lot of unreasonable resistance to genetic engineering by some of the vegetarian extremest groups, some of the same ones who think insects and/or animals are the "same" as people.
By the way, in a FIGU publication I once read, Meier did indeed expound on how much unnecessary suffering was inflicted on animals in the food industries. Of course, overpopulation is a major cause of these problems as well. And this is another area that various segments of the population don't want to address.
Let me know what you think.
Michael Horn
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Ilkka
New member
Post Number: 3
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 01:29 pm: |
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Hello Michael, thanks for answering.
Basically my problem is about the juxtaposition of philosophical ethics and Meier's teachings. The latter is a source I can never be entirely sure about, however convincing it is, whereas my own ethical values are (or at least should be) based on pure, undeniable logic, which should place them before everything else. I guess empirical knowledge always affects one's values and what one thinks of the surrounding world, but I still feel uneasy about basing my values on the teachings of any authority figure. This, and the fact that the choice between meat-eating and vegetarianism is definitely one of the biggest ethical questions in a modern man's life (horrendous mass murder and slave trade or not that big a deal?), is why this all feels so important and why I want to be as certain as possible.
Like I previously mentioned, there are seemingly no purely logical arguments that could support killing animals for food. Saying that meat-eating is "natural" isn't really a sound justification, when you consider that animals have no freedom of choice - which, of course, prevents them of being accused of acting right or wrong - whereas humans do. And I can't think of anything (besides religious and ideological dogmas) that prevents one from comparing an animal to, for example, a human baby or a mental handicap. So, if I choose to continue eating meat, it would (at least so it seems at this point) be because some new age prophet (albeit an unusually plausible one) I've never even met said it's OK, which I don't think I could be completely alright with. On the other hand, I don't really feel so much empathy for animals that even seeing a juicy piece of beef would make me sick (which, in a way, magnifies my feeling of unease), but that isn't necessarily the point.
About the suffering, I'm totally with you, but because there really is suffering and mistreating of animals in meat and dairy industries, couldn't it be easily seen as unethical to use what they produce? And if animals can be compared to children or the mentally ill, even painless milking of a cow could basically be seen as similar to sexually abusing a (dying) human child or putting a retarded freak in a circus sideshow.
You're right about overpopulation too; with a smaller human population problems like these would also be much smaller. But of course it doesn't really have anything to do with the ethical question at hand. And I don't actually know many vegetarian-nature conserver -types of people, but I do think they are normally more sensible, ethical and all-around better people than normal. I'm pretty sure many - probably most - of people rarely even give a thought to what's really right and wrong - or generally to anything what I percieve as really important.
But so you wouldn't think I'm a complete nutcase, let me just say that the picture you painted about it being natural for beings - capable of ethical thought or not - to consume one another seems probably the most correct, right and natural one to me. But, as I already said, I'm afraid that just isn't enough, and I don't know what to do or not to.
Well, um, I'm not sure if this was any good for conversation and I apologize if it was incoherent or something. But that's pretty much what I think now. |
Michael
Member
Post Number: 388
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 05:24 pm: |
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Hi Ilkka,
Humans have eaten animals for eternity, it is a definite part of evolution and not some aberration. Neither is it necessary to have an "authority figure" tell us what we should or shouldn't eat. It may be helpful to get qualified nutritional advice from someone who qualifies as expert in that field. We certainly agree that it will be better all around when we produce the nutrients without the killing the animals.
And don't overlook the tastes and desires of your body as they can accurately reflect its needs, though we all have certain tastes and cravings that don't fall into that category. Check and see what makes you feel good when you eat it. Some people don't feel good from meat or aimal products, others do.
I don't think you can equate an animal with a human, baby or grown up (retarded or not), and therefore it isn't murder. And the analogy about milking the cow and sexual abuse needs some logical rethinking. But one thing that has been said about certain native American Indians is that they gave thanks to the animal during the hunt and acknowledged that they were taking its life to sustain themselves.
Most of us don't hunt to provide our food but we could still be grateful for having food, whatever its source. Heck, we could even be grateful for having all that we have in our lives in every area!
I don't know that vegetarians are really better people (it's often mentioned that Hitler was a vegetarian and an animal lover.) Many vegetarians are full of fear about eating and have other problems around food. We don't live in a fairy tale world, there are choices to be made and since there is animal food provided one should consider if one's body and overall health benefits by consuming it. If so, then to not consume it may be to waste it and to neglect oneself.
Taking the fear out of the whole deal, having gratittude, thinking logically and finding balance in these things is a good idea.
Here's a song I wrote about the issue (20 years ago):
Attitude of Gratitude
You just found out that all you’ve been eatin’ is junk
from the first corn doggie to the last diet soda you drunk
so you’re grazin’ on sprouts sayin’ raisins are out
too much sugar an’ you’re feelin’ sunk
so you go to extremes only brown rice an’ beans for a month
But when your attitude is gratitude you get the best out of your food
so bless it don’t mess it up with all of those taboos
when your attitude is gratitude your body knows what it can use
when your attitude is gra-a-atitude
Well you’ve given that up now an’ all that you’re eatin’ are prunes
along with some algae that you consume by the spoons
you’re grazin’ on sprouts sayin’ raisins are out too much sugar an’ you’re feelin’ sunk
so you go to extremes only garlic an’ greens for a month
But when your attitude is gratitude you get the best out of your food
so bless it don’t mess it up with all of those taboos
when your attitude is gratitude your body knows what it can use
when your attitude is gra-a-atitude
Hey whaddya mean you don’t like tofu all the books say you’re supposed to
just what you need it’s another diet dip that book in lard an’ fry it
But when your attitude is gratitude you get the best out of your food
so bless it don’t mess it up with all of those taboos
when your attitude is gratitude your body knows what it can use
when your attitude is gra-a-atitude so pass those Twinkies!
Michael Horn
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Markc
Member
Post Number: 19
Registered: 06-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 12:05 am: |
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Hi Ilkka ;
Are you Norwegian ? You have a lovely name .
The only thing I would like reply to about your concerns , is that right now there are no manufacturers of cell grown meat on Earth . It's not up to Billy , the FIGU or the Plejarens to insure that this is implemented right away ,along with genetic repair to our DNA to lengthen our lifespans . We really have to do all this ourselves . It should be enough that they have got us looking in the right direction , I would think .
As far as Billy being this big authority figure telling people what to do and not to do , it's just not the case at all .Many people on this forum who have an opinion that Billy has some kind of attitude problem which makes him think that he has the right to tell you how to live , just don't know the man .
As a society , we readily beleive what "They" have to say about whatever sciences of health that the medical authorities( "they") mention - without a name or face given . We are generally more comfortable thinking that responsible people who have medical degrees will tell us the truth , and that they are smart enough to know it . As soon as someone comes along who wears many hats , and is very open about his origins , however fantastic it may sound , of course there will be many unhappy ones who regard this kind of person to be very arrogant .
Meeting Billy will definitely change anyone's mind of such a cold opinion ~ that is , that he is a cold authority figure .It's the same with most anyone who we don't meet ....we don't know the person , and it's always warmer after we meet .
As far as this subject being a hot topic socially , as it tends to define some social prejudices as well as familiarities ,it is an important one , in that many people develop real deficiencies which noone would ever guess start with a Total vegetarian lifestyle . Moderation seems to always be a balancing factor .
If eating meat from animals that have big brown eyes and cute faces bothers you ( I like to watch cows run , to tell the truth) , you might try shark ( and help keep the beaches safe) or alligator (a cajun delicacy , tastes like a T-Rex steak - keeps Lousiana folk safe when they're changing tires on long stretches of highway ) .
Some people prefer lightning to fire ; but it feels the same when it touches you .
I really don't know where that came from ........instinct , I guess .
Regards , Mark |
Savio
Member
Post Number: 417
Registered: 07-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 09:45 pm: |
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Hi Ilkka
My point of view is this:
All living things consume "food" to sustain and grow, no matter it is in the form of mineral, plants, insects or animals; they take it as and when it is necessary, that is the way of nature and is proven by our own observation.
We kill the animal when we need food is an act of nature and in doing so we help the animal to meet its purpose of existence as well.
As for Semjase felt bad for the deer, I think it is just because that lovely deer was hurt without any necessity, people do feel very sad when their pets pass away don't they?
Regards
Savio
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Ilkka
New member
Post Number: 4
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 12:32 pm: |
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Hi to all of you.
Markc,
not Norwegian, Finnish. I don't especially love my name, but it's cool if it sounds "lovely" to a foreigner. (I'm guessing the a-ending makes it sound feminine too, although it is actually masculine, just as myself. Um, just to avoid any confusion.)
I didn't mean to say I think Meier (I just don't feel entitled to call him "Billy", as if I'd know him well) is a "cold authority figure" - I think I have a somewhat accurate picture of his character. I'm just saying that he, like anyone else, inevitably becomes a kind of authority figure if I think he's believeable and perhaps alter my thinking and actions more to what he says is good and right.
But still I really haven't read any valid ethical arguments in defence of killing animals for meat, and I am pretty much certain there is none. Yes, people have eaten animals for a long time, but they have killed and tortured each other for a long time too. And as already stated, humans have freedom of choice, which puts them ethically in a whole different category than animals, therefore making impossible for a human being to really act in a "natural" way.
And I already said I really don't feel too bad about eating killed animals, and if I did, I at least should be pretty much equally sad about every killed animal, be it a cute little bunny or an "ugly" (all animals, as part of nature, are really immensely beautiful) crocodile.
Nutritional arguments have also been brought up, but important as it is on a practical level, I don't think doing what's right for your own body is nearly as important as doing what's right for everybody. Although it probably would be better for everyone and the whole world if people, especially in the Western world, cut down their meat and dairy consumption, ethical problems would remain practically the same.
But of course there is no problem if one regards Meier's teachings as plausible and trustworthy. I have thought about this for some time now, and although I am not, and certainly will never be, entirely sure about the validity of his claims and teachings, I do feel now he can be trusted enough so that I can eat my meat in good conscience (this probably means that my feeling of guilt will totally crush me should Meier ever be proven as a fraud). Mikec has a good point there about them scientific experts; it truly is very hard to tell who or what should be trusted.
It is generally (as it should be, I think) thought as laughable and idiotic to even mention some new age prophet's teachings when talking about nutritional, ethical or any other such things, but I think I'm able to trust my common sense this much. Also, on a purely instinctive level, I don't feel animal-eating is wrong, but I'll probably still diminish and restrict the amount of animal products I'll stuff in my mouth, as that would probably be better for myself and, even if in a miniscule amount, to the world.
And thank you for taking part of this conversation. |
Michael_d
Member
Post Number: 22
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 09:33 pm: |
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Ilkka,
How about this? Try not eating meat for as long as you can and see if you feel better or worse. Could this lead to any "realizations" or just another series of "rationalizations"? |
Imagematters
New member
Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 04:32 am: |
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Hi all
Please ignore my username as I have a graphic design company (now its in context).
Anyway to answer your question, my uncle went veggy years before it was fashionable to do so. It eventually made him very ill and his doctor told him to start eating meat again. He recovered, and realised his veggy ways was depriving his body of the protein he needed.
I went veggy for 2 years, difference being i took supplements, but i still felt drained all the time. so I started eating meat again, and my energy levels are much better.
Humans have been eating meat indefinately, so to cut our main protein source out in one/two generations, WILL have adverse effects.
Hope this is helpful
P.S. I am a total animal lover, do charity work for animal charities, but meat is still important for good healthy. Maybe veggies, or wannabe veggies should help animal in other ways. Just a thought.
Stuart Lovatt (England) |
Hunter
Member
Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 11:08 am: |
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Good dietary information:
http://www.westonaprice.org/ |
Hunter
Member
Post Number: 13
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 05:04 pm: |
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One disclaimer about the above link--they're against genetically modified foods. But their other information seems to be sound. All I can say is, nobody's perfect... |
Ilkka
Member
Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 03:49 pm: |
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All right then, I've now been a vegan (no animal products whatsoever) for about six months. And even if I probably haven't planned my diet as thoroughly as I should have (I do take a daily vitamin B supplement and occasionally vitamin D), I feel fine. In fact, quite a lot better than before this decision, although I can't really say how much of it is psychosomatic. I had a blood sample taken a few weeks ago and they said there's nothing wrong with me, so at least at this point I see no cause for concern about my well-being.
If you for some reason or another are not able to regard an animal's life as equal to that of a human, there are at least two other good reasons to be a vegan. One is that nutritional experts quite unanimously agree that a good vegan diet is healthier than one which involves consumption of animal products. And the other is that using animals for nutritional and other kinds of products is incredibly wasteful and puts a lot of strain on the environment, so a vegan lifestyle is also ecologically very sound.
So, based on my own experience and information I find plausible, its quite hard for me to see any sense in Billy Meier's - or anyone else's, for that matter - acceptance of animal product consumption. I would kindly urge anyone who disagrees with me to reconsider his/her position. |
Michael
Member
Post Number: 436
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 07:13 pm: |
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Animals are not the same as humans though hardcore vegetarians demonstrate their illogic by confusing their feelings for animals with this fact. And, of course, the majority of us don't endorse cruelty to animals.
The Plejaren have apparently mastered the science of reproducing the animal food in every way through some form of culturing or duplication processes that they developed. But they maintain that certain substances essential to the health and well-being of the majority of humans can only be found in these products/substances.
Human evolution and the human digestive system tell us a different story than idealistic vegetarians wish to hear, with animal protein being a staple of the human diet for countless millenia. Nowadays there is much pollution and other problems with animal foods, as there is with every other food on our polluted planet.
We will hopefully evolve our technology to the point where we, too, can produce and utilize the types of foods produced by the Plejaren and solve many environmental problems in so doing. This will require genetic engineering, the biggest opponents of which are often irrational, illogical vegetarians who, in their opposition to it, actually help to prolong the very conditions they claim they would like to eliminate.
Michael Horn
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Thomas
Member
Post Number: 62
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 07:17 pm: |
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Ilkka, I think you have made some valid points. I personally have no way of knowing the full picture. I agree with you that animals are living creatures and therefore should be respected and afforded the right to live naturally in their own environment. In the past, I have even attempted to become an ovolacto vegetarian, but I wasn't successful for more than one reason.
On the other hand, I understand from the contact notes that the effects of veganism would not show themselves for some length of time after the person changed to that diet. I also understand that children would be more adversely affected, and more immediately. According to Billy's information, there is no reason that a person shouldn't be a vegetarian as long as they received the animal products in proper balance from another source, such as certain types of seaweed (though not just any seaweed will do). The Plejarans are said to consume animal products without the killing or mistreatment of animals. I seem to recall that they culture their meat somehow and that the meat is grown seperate from any host animal. So, in a manner of speaking, the Plejarans are not vegetarians, yet they harm no animals for the gain of food.
I guess it boils down to the fact that, yes, animals are mistreated and shouldn't be, and no, we do not have the proper knowledge to supply ALL the necessary nutrients that are needed for balanced health without consuming animal products.
My question is this: Can a balanced diet be had without eating meat (or the specifically mentioned seaweed) if no meat is consumed, but eggs and dairy products are???
Anybody know the answer??? Thanks.
Thomas |
Ilkka
Member
Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 05:18 am: |
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Michael,
Animals are indeed not the same as humans, but I simply do not see any good enough reason not to give them the same basic rights we usually give each other. It may be true that there is some sort of universal law that says what is okay and what is not, but then again it may not. I don't think I can ever be sure enough.
Nevertheless, biologically humans are omnivores, who can live without or with nothing but meat. Vegetarianism is not really a new phenomenon, although it mostly has occured only when meat hasn't been available. I am fully aware that a strict, yet healthy, vegan diet wouldn't be possible in more primitive conditions, but that really should not be a problem even if it makes it sound "unnatural" or something.
And I'm sure there are a lot of less informed and intelligent vegetarianists out there, but I believe that many of those who have given up using animal products mainly through ethical reasoning are able to see what good potential science possesses and are not completely against genetic engineering etc. I, for one, would glady eat meat artificially grown from cells or plants that include animal protein, provided they are indeed safe for consumption. But I don't see these kind of things happening for a while; as long as it's cheaper, meat will be cut from dead animals.
Thomas,
If there really would be some terrible effects from veganism, I'm somehow sure they would have already come up. And because promoting veganism probably isn't exactly in many people's interests (like promoting animal products), this sort of information would definitely not be suppressed or anything.
And if it's quite easy to have a balanced diet (as I believe) with little or no animal products, a lacto-ovo-vegetarianist should really have no problems at all. |
Thomas
Member
Post Number: 63
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 11:01 am: |
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Ilkka, I wonder if you might post a question to Billy in that section and ask him what the supposed negative, physical affects of veganism are? If you did ask him, you might mention the fact that supplements are available and see what he says...just an idea. I would do it but I have already posed a question to him for this round. Thanks, Thomas |
Hunter
Member
Post Number: 61
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 02:08 pm: |
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Ilkka/Thomas:
I can tell you from personal experience--I've had severe chronic health problems--that a vegetarian diet does not produce all the necessary nutrients for human beings. A few years ago I read some of the vegan literature and decided it was worth a try to improve my health so I went on a vegetarian diet for almost a year. I felt better initially, and I think this is because, as Michael says, our planet is polluted and unless animals are raised naturally, eating organic vegetation, etc., we take in the toxins they absorb as well. But after the initial "burst" of energy from switching, I did not have any long term improvement. I lost 30 lbs on a vegetarian diet, which for me was not healthy because I was not overweight. After I switched back to meat (try to stick mainly to free range, organic stock now) my energy and strength improved and I gained the weight back in short order.
All I can you is that I feel much better when I eat meat. The difference is very noticeable to me. I would not recommend a vegetarian diet to anyone. I think the best way to improve your health is to avoid pollutants in plant and animal foods (pesticides, high levels of antibiotics, methyl mercury(in fish), chemical fertilizers, artificial colors and flavors, MSG, etc).
Namaste,
Hunter |
Memo00
Member
Post Number: 56
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 08:57 pm: |
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hi to everyone,
its supposed that a healthy ADULT
can live with a vegetarian diet with almost no serious health problems for a long period of time (maybe you have to wait for many years or even decades depending on your lifestyle, genetics etc, etc) , so it´s no surprise that after only 6 months nothing "bad" has already happened . . .
its natural to feel better since vegetables, fruits, etc have many positive effects, but that is precisely the problem,
since our goal in life is evolution,
we have to experience both, the positive and the negative in all, we have to find the equilibrium and the harmony in everything we do, to really comprehend and evolve,
too much "good" or too much "bad" lead to degenerations, and degenerations lead to selfdestruction
an excess of animal food leads to sluggish thinking
and a pure vegetarian diet leads to the opposite, so with time
abnormal mental activities can arise, and
a person´s critical judgement can be impaired to an extent were he/she can no longer distinguish what is real from what is unreal
it´s supposed too that animal products make us a little more aggressive, which is something healthy, since all living beings MUST be capable of defending themselves at any time
the opposite can lead to very strange ways of thinking, where people slowly no longer want to kill anything (including plants)and they change their diet to only fruits and similar things (and even there are people who claim that they don´t need to eat but that they can obtain the necessary "energy" by breathing in some special way)or where they prefer to be murdered than to kill other human being or animal
and that path takes you surely to decadence and to death. . .
if you really have a very well balanced diet, maybe you can live and die like anybody else, but after many generations of only eating plants you can be 100% sure that those human beings would be weaker and soon or late would die
for one reason or another
just remember
what happened when the Sirius people removed the negative from their genetics . . .
a complete disaster |
Jay
Member
Post Number: 325
Registered: 01-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 11:02 am: |
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Hi all,
I also had a friend who was very conscious of his health do to his young yrs of being overweight. He decided to change his life around by understanding and becoming a VEGAN, the results were good as soon as he lost all the weight but as the results went on, he began to feel his teeth were getting sensitive and turning somewhat of a dark color. To say the least he lost 2 teeth and he then understood that the VEGAN diet was diminishing him from certain Proteins and Calciums needed for bone structure. He also understood that Glutamine is continually needed in the body and meats are the great sources of this enzyme. He began slowly taking clean organic semi raw meats and fish, within a period of a month or so his teeth began to turn back to proper normal white coloration. He understood now that meats are essential in a balanced manner and that eating organic clean meats in small portion throughout the week he has become much more stronger and energetic. He does have friends who are still Vegan and when I met them, they totally looked sick and drained not to mention lethargic.
Saalome and BE WELL to ALL 
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Ilkka
Member
Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 12:46 pm: |
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Hunter,
Are you sure you planned your vegetarian diet correctly? I mean, it does require some basic nutritional knowledge to plan a healthy diet. Of course I'm not expert, but I'd guess that sort of weight loss could indicate that you weren't eating enough or right kinds of food. There are many vegetarian food items that are very much comparable to meat (soy, mushrooms, different kinds of beans), and according to current knowledge the only thing you need and can't really get from plants is vitamin B12. I haven't really lost any weight since I left the army three months ago, even though I could lose a few pounds.
Memo00,
I'm sure you have something like empirical studies you can refer to? Because I just don't find it very believeable that a vegan/vegetarian diet would have any negative consequenses if you take care to prevent all possible deficiencies.
And personally I don't feel I have any less feelings of aggression and hostility towards other people than before. |
Savio
Member
Post Number: 487
Registered: 07-2000
| | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 09:11 pm: |
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Dear all
I would think that a vegetarian diet might be alright in certain conditions, this is where the balance of the physical body and the psyche can be achieved.
We can take an example from the Shou Lin Monks, they have a balanced vegetarian diet and they practice martial arts and meditations, this is how they get rid of most of the undesirable side-effects.
However, for general people, they cannot achieve these kind of balance, hence, more or less, they will suffer from those undesirable side-effects of a vegetarian diet that Billy and many of you have mentioned.
Well, I would think a balanced vegetarian diet plus a certain amount of meat dishes at times will do good to all of us, and it is so easy to achieve
Salome
Savio |
Memo00
Member
Post Number: 57
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 06:51 am: |
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hi again
the source for the information about the changes on the mind with an exclusive vegetarian diet, is the plejarans, and you can be 100% sure that they know a lot more about nutrition than any earth human, and that they could very easily use nutritional suplements and that kind of things. . .
since in the universe, we are almost like little babies, there are many many things earth scientists still have to discover, i think is something wise to follow the plejarans advice. . . (but that is only of your business)
(if you are not 100% sure the plejarans are real people, and not just an invention, you have to search, and search, and search, until you find the truth)
about the agression, i meant in the sense of selfdefense
............................................
there are many ways to realize something, some are simple and easy, and some are hard and painful
the simple and easy is to observe nature,
watch the animals, watch the plants, observe all that is happening out there, observe the relationships between them, observe the cycles, and the rythim, observe the balance between life and death, between positive and negative,
i love nature, i love animals and i love plants,
i don´t like even to kill little insects without a reason , i don´t like even to cut the grass, but truly,
to eat meat is the natural way,
is the way we are, is the way mother nature created us,
is nature stupid???
i think you only have to observe,
and you will see that from the smallest to the biggest, from the simple to the most complex,
everything was created wisely, with love, well balanced and harmonious
the old mother nature is wiser than all of us together!!!
if you want to use your body like a lab, well,
is your decision, but remember too that maybe you will have to wait for many years depending on your diet, you genetics, your lifestyle, etc, etc (and remember too that the changes in the mind are sometimes very subtle, so you will have to deepen your awareness, to really know if something is changing or not)
take care |
Ilkka
Member
Post Number: 9
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 01:36 pm: |
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Jay,
as I said before, if one is planning to become a vegan, one should possess adequate nutritional information. Getting enough protein, calsium or other essentials is not at all a big problem if you know what your body needs and where to get it. And you can get all that you need without having to consume animal products. So it seems certain that your friend - and also his vegan friends - simply does not possess enough and/or right kind of information.
Of course, meat and other animal products can be good sources of protein, calsium and other nutrients and, if eaten in moderate amounts, can be part of a healthy diet. But if a vegan lifestyle is no less healthy and additionally more ethical and ecologically sustainable, it shouldn't be a tough choice. And even if changing your diet is out of the question, you could think about at least avoiding other animal products, like clothes made of leather, fur or wool. |
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