| Author | Message | ||
    Mahigitam Member Post Number: 248 Registered: 02-2009 |
In recent Q&A section, Dan_c Hello Billy. Thank you so much for all of your amazing dedication and work. I highly respect your neutral approach to life. I've been wondering lately, if Jmmanuel was not crucified for religious reasons (since he clearly did have the opportunity to prevent himself from being crucified and was not himself religious), then what was the real reason for letting himself be crucified? Warmest regards, Yours truly Daniel He was crucified for religiouis-political and political reasons. I think Daniels intention was that, even if Jmmanuel had the chance to escape the crucifixion, why didnt he simply escape ...but the answer seemed to be in a different context relative to the question. ---------------- Also in Talmud Of Jmmanuel(2007 4rth Edition), we find.. CH27,160E The Disciples' Agitation 2....I prophesied to you, that I shall be crucified in order to gain a special cognition? CH33,208E In Damascus 37.There was new strength within him and his teachings were more powerful than before. Question: according to my understanding, crucifixion is a step to reach a special cognition[that made his teachings much more powerful],so it was not avoided by jmmanuel but faced it and attained that special skill by facing intense pain. If my above assumption is correct, isnt there any other way to acquire that "special" cognition(spiritual progress)? Without love & compassion, meditation is meaningless - Jiddu Krishnamurthy | ||
Smukhuti Member Post Number: 441 Registered: 06-2009 |
All experiences of life are valuable including pain. That does not mean that physical pain like that of being crucified is required to be experienced in order to get special spiritual cognition. Think of this in a different way: Person A is spreading the teaching of truth. Person B comes with his group of mischief makers and threatens person A and inflicts bodily injury to person A. Person A retreats, and stop spreading the teaching of truth. Now, if Person A is a real truth-seeker and a highly evolved spirit who is aware of his role in spreading the teaching, and the consequences of not doing so - he would actually resolve to spread the teaching of truth in a more vigorous manner and with a new zeal and with stronger words. It is my opinion only.. Salome. Suv | ||
Elreyjr Member Post Number: 174 Registered: 01-2009 |
Greetings Mahigitam, Thank you for your seal and dedication in seeking for the truth. I enjoy it as well if not even better. Your question in effect, if I may, is "Why did Jmmanuel not used all the power (Billy prefers "might" of consciousness) and prevent his crucifixion? My guess is, it was the attainment of Jmmanuel's mission that was primordial and the "crucifixion" (though he did suffer a lot but did not die and only came near death and I would not be surprised if he did knew it as such as well) and also the role of Saul/Paul into the picture, is/are an important chapter/s of his life and evolution and he did not even avoid it from happening. Similarly Billy was told and did loose his left arm and did not even accept restoration works offered by the P's including having been told about the would be many assassination attempts on his life, all the hardship and agony, etc. but simply went on, all for the attainment of the/his mission. I do not know with you, but I could not imagine myself having the knowledge that I will soon be meeting a serious accident and would not even try to avoid it. Please do not accept what I just said. Study it for your self. Jun My will be done | ||
Eddieamartin Member Post Number: 18 Registered: 08-2010 |
|> Greetings, > (?) Did Jmmanuel look forward to his crucifixion? > There is much to consider regarding Jmmanuel, his personal spiritual and thus cognitive developments and keen understanding of said accomplishments. > He truly is an incredible inspiration to all of us, to strive towards the attainment of the same attributes and powers of consciousness, which every JSHWSH and JSHRSH has expressed to Billy is an integral component of our very Being/BEING. > Let us consider the following: > Word of Wisdom, Creational Law and Law of Love- are universal and immutable and therefore apply to all of Creation's creations. > Let us consider the following words as if directed to ourselves that we may gain wisdom. Asket's Explanations - Part 2 Asket: 1. The time has now come in which you are to experience many things which, at a later time, will be helpful to you and many others in the search for truth. 2. You yourself will thereby play a great role because you will become a fact of tradition. 3. I have already explained to you the possibility of time travel into the past or future. 40. The further events of your future are the following, which you, however, are never permitted to tell anyone: ... (Explanations of the future, about myself personally, about which, however, I must be silent. Explanation of Friday, February 7th, 1953.) 41. There will be further events in which, shortly before the loss of your arm in Persia, you will be called something new - in fact, the name "Billy". Asket's Explanations - Part 4 Eduard: But the remainder gave him the truth about the life and work of Jmmanuel when Asket led us back to the year 32 in order to, there and then, examine those events which are described so wrongly and counter to reality in the New Testament of the Christian Bible. Asket's Explanations - Part 5 Eduard: In the course of the years of my life it has, however, also become completely clear to me that it is not good for the human when he knows his future. If he knows his future, then, in his egoism, he moves in the direction of wanting to influence the future in accordance with his own will and thereby creates enormous unhappiness. > This therefore brings to light Jmmanuel's extraordinary personal development, understanding of the Law of Love and the impressive level of wisdom which his father Gabriel had endowed him with; much as Sfath, Asket and the others have done with Billy. > Following, we discover his extraordinary powers of perception and of consciousness. Asket's Explanations - Part 6 Jmmanuel: 11. You have peculiar language, but I understand its meaning. 12. It is good and it honours you. 13. But let us sit here on these stones because I would like to have a conversation with you. Eduard: You know my name and also Asket's. Do you know each other then, and has she told you about me? Jmmanuel: 14. You are very connected to reality. 15. No. I have, as yet, never spoken with Asket. 16. My knowledge about you two is of another nature. 17. It is to be found in my power of consciousness, through which I behold the times. > We therefore see that Jmmanuel had indeed the power to look into the future and possessed incredible insight of things to be. > (research: Arahat Athersata). Eduard: That is so, I know, yet shortly you will also face a very difficult test. Jmmanuel: 22. Life demands all sorts of things, as you say. 23. But we must tread our path and traverse it in honour and in fulfillment of the laws. 24. As I will tread my path, so will you also tread yours, and in the same way every human will always have his own path to traverse. > This last statement by Jmmanuel that, "...and in the same way every human will always have his own path to traverse" is of great significance for us all. > Now let us consider the following: http://galactic.to/rune/billyeng3.html In the original "Semjase - berichte, block 2" - page 283 is told a method - hyperspacejumps - that this civilisation has developed to travel in space - outside of our time/space-dimension. In such a way, they "move" in dematerialized state - seemingly both craft and people onboard - on a frequency-level that is far raised above this level of existence. And at the same time - the "travellers" inside the field (craft/ship) seems to get an adventure that is very close to the reported ***OUT OF THE BODY EXPERIENCES.*** A lot of such cases has been discovered in the last 30 years - since Raymond Moody wrote his books about this in the mid 70ths. "The pleiadians" use this method to demonstrate for their people that LIFE is not the body/IN the body - but is independent of the coarsebody. Consequently THAT EVERY BEEING ON THEIR PLANET ERRA MAY HIM/HERSELF live to see IMMORTALITY. > We can now reflect on the manner by which the Plejarens have disseminated information; not only to Billy throughout his life, but in the way we have been slowly receiving testament of their existence. > Consider the following: Contact Report 311 Translation Billy: Thanks for the explanation. Now I would like to ask you if you know something about a flying object of larger size, which was in the area of Breithorn in the Bernese Highlands, and to be sure, on the 11th of August, 2001, approximately between 3:00 PM and 4:00 PM? Ptaah: 25. That was actually the case. 26. It was one of the larger aircraft of the Druans, who have joined our Federation and who are, at the present time, in the earthly airspace. 28. But why do you ask, and how do you know about this? Billy: It’s quite simple; Freddy was, precisely at that time, near the Breithorn area on vacation and was able to photograph the Druan ship. Ptaah: 33. Also, the Druans were urged, in accordance with our and the High Council’s decision, to make themselves visible to the group members if the opportunity should arise for it. 34. So it is possible that they made themselves visible for the purpose of photographing. > We can therefore surmise, through personal evolution, depending on the available technology and meeting the requirements of Creational Law, a moment in the spiritual-matter realm allows a new consciousness and cognition. > Anyone who has died, beheld their course-matter body and intermingled with this realm has indeed advanced in consciousness and cognition in an immeasurable sort of way. Still, it is only one additional little step forward in evolution as one must return to the course-matter and continue along one's "path" as mentioned by Jmmanuel. > Not yet having attained a specific cognition, we are therefore not ready- as Billy stated above that ..."it is not good for the human when he knows his future. If he knows his future, then, in his egoism, he moves in the direction of wanting to influence the future in accordance with his own will and thereby creates enormous unhappiness." > It is "our fear of dying" that overwhelms us and the dread for pain of the body, which shifts our focus on the crucifixion and not on what Jmmanuel was looking forward to. > We should therefore perhaps be better off focusing on our own cognition and personal development through the study, analysis, application and embodiment of the Teachings of Creational Law. > For it is obvious that perhaps Jmmanuel knew of something of which we know not of ...yet.  > Salome, > Eddie [7:-) | ||
Rarena Member Post Number: 607 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi Eddie, When Billy went back to meet with Jmmanuel he found that Jmmanuel absolutely knew it and also knew he would live through it yet went forward with fear and trepidation none-the-less. References: Contact Book No. 1 Page 343-356,Contact (C)8, C37, C31, C267 Various Wassermanseit documents. | ||
Eddieamartin Member Post Number: 19 Registered: 08-2010 |
Hi Rarena, Yes, based on the comments by both Billy and Jmmanuel, they realized that the foreknowledge of what they were going to go through was a major trial indeed of the mind. We naturally prefer to avoid pain wherein Billy explains the reason it is not good for humans to know their future. Never the less, although that was a confrontational vision to cope with, at their level of spiritual evolution, it was necessary as an experience to step into that realm and experience that. The higher spirit forms had shared technology with Asket's people that allows them to dematerialize and live in that level for a little bit of time without the need to die temporarily and return to coarse-matter. BTW, have you or anyone else in this forum ever experience or know of someone who has 'died and returned' and told of their experience? Not of the floating around the body and going into other rooms in the hospital, but rather, where they actually stand at the edge? There is a secret to our Being/BEING 'make up' that this experience sheds tremendous light on. Since we are being made aware of it, there must be something to it that we can tap into and evolve a little bit further with. As I am ever learning something new with all these teachings, (I've been studying less than two months now), I'm interested in the various perspectives and 'lessons learned' sort of speak. I'm certain, since I learn something new every time I read, there must be something someone else has 'realized' or 'learned' that others haven't. Would you mind sharing your perspective on the impressions or lessons or anything of value to our evolution that you have gotten from this experience Billy and Jmmanuel had? I know there is much below the surface and that if we search them out, it may just unlock certain cognition. Would everyone please share your findings and personal discoveries? Developing these attributes through the spiritual evolution is fascinating and appears to be the theme of the Plejaren message to us. [7:-) | ||
Smukhuti Member Post Number: 442 Registered: 06-2009 |
If anyone wants to research Jmmanuel’s work at India during his lost years, Notovich's book - "The unknown Life of Jesus Christ" is the largest publicly available source. Swami Abhedananda, who was initially a sceptic of Notovich, journeyed to the monastery himself to verify the source, and subsequently validated Notovich’s account. "The unknown Life of Jesus Christ" even contains some of Jmmanuel’s teaching delivered in this region, which Notovich gathered from the documents found at Himis monastery. After reading the book, I personally felt that Notovich copied Jmmanuel’s teaching from a document which was written by someone who did not completely understood Jmmanuel's teaching. But Jmmanuel’s teaching documented at Himis is closer to TJ than the New Testament. The best part of this book is where the chief Lama of Himis discusses a variety of topic with Notovich - ranging from prevalence of idolatry in Tibetan ceremonies/architecture to how Lamaism is connected to Buddhism. The book also names some lesser known areas in India where Jmmanuel travelled: "country of the five streams" (Punjab), Radjipoutan (Rajasthan), Djagguernat (Puri in Orissa), Radjagriha (Rajgir), Benaras (Varanasi), country of the Gautamides (probably referring to an area where Gautamites, or followers of Siddhartha Gautama lived). Notovich's book is now available as free download from Project Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/n#a33818 Salome. Suv | ||
Jim Member Post Number: 102 Registered: 07-2003 |
Hello Eddie, You asked this: "BTW, have you or anyone else in this forum ever experience or know of someone who has 'died and returned' and told of their experience? Not of the floating around the body and going into other rooms in the hospital, but rather, where they actually stand at the edge?" By now quite a bit of remembrances on this have been retrieved through hypno-regression into a past life, its death and thence into the between-life state. One of the first books on this was from Dr. Michael Newton, _Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life between Lives_ (1994). Most recently, Dr. Linda Backman, _Bringing Your Soul to Light: Healing Through Past Lives and the Time Between_ (2009). But the experience is so different and marvelous that most subjects have had difficulty in expressing it in words. | ||
Phi_spiral Member Post Number: 537 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hello Suv Since this string is about the Talmud Jmmanuel, I shall start there. There are two contradictions between Notovitch’s version in, The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ and the Talmud of Jmmanuel which jump out at you as red flags. The first is that Notovitch uses the name Issa which closely resembles the Arabic name Isa used in the Koran to refer to Jesus. But according to the TJ his name was Jmmmanuel and since Notovitch claimed his version was recorded from the mouths of some Jewish merchants who came to India immediately after the crucifixion and was written down in Pali, there had not been time for the historical distortion to occur about his name and logically it should still have been Jmmanuel. The Koran, of course, had not even been written yet. The second contradiction is that in Notovitch’s account, Jmmanuel travels to India during those “lost years” between Jmmanuel’s childhood to the beginning of his teaching period in Palestine, whereas according to Billy, it was after Jmmanuel’s crucifixion that he traveled to India and taught there. Actually there is a third problem I have with the Notovitch document. Notovitch asked that the manuscript on the life of Jesus be brought to him and his interpreter be permitted to read it out loud in Russian. This was done and he wrote the interpreter's words from which he later composed a manuscript that was originally published in French. So the text found on the internet is an English translation from French that was a translation from Russian that was an impromptu translation from Tibetan which was earlier translated from Pali of an oral recollection in Hebrew! And just how is it that those Jewish merchants who arrived in India immediately after the crucifixion knew not only what had happened to Issa (Jmmanuel) in Palestine, but also were privy to what had happened to Jesus, or Issa, while he spent fifteen years of his life among the Brâhmans and Buddhists in India, learning Sanskrit and Pâli, and studying the Vedas and the Tripitaka? About 15 years ago before my study began of the Meier material, I had read the writings of Nicolas Notovitch among many others of similar topic. About that time my paths crossed with Joe Szimhart and we had many conversations about parallel spiritual interests. He gave me a document that he had prepared and written which debunked the authenticity of Notovitch’s account. Joe had even written Tibetan scholar, Nawang Tsering who together with a friend who was both a monk and a historian at the Hemis Gompa Buddhist Monastery in Ladakh — a region north of India (now part of Kashmir) thoroughly researched the story. When his research had completed Tsering replied that no such manuscript ever existed at this or any other Buddhist monastery and that it was all “thought construction.” Regards Bob | ||
Elreyjr Member Post Number: 180 Registered: 01-2009 |
Dear Suv, Thank you. I had you in my mind when I asked about Jmmanuel's travel in the land of India. I will look into the book you offered. Dear Bob, Your view is very much appreciated. I will keep it in mind during my reading about Notovitch's book. Jun My will be done | ||
Ramirez Member Post Number: 509 Registered: 06-2008 |
Hi Bob, Your research and questions about inconsistencies makes a lot of sense. Having purported original manuscripts is doubtless an excellent tourist - religious scholar attractant for some of these monastery's as is the publishing of books containing an air of mystery. However .... what was Jmmanuel doing and where from the ages of 12 to 30 ? Surely he wasn't knocking together tables & chairs in his fathers workshop. Cheers. | ||
Markcampbell Member Post Number: 545 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hi Bob ; I have an idea that Jmmanuel needed another name (Issa) while he distanced himself from the area .Or, Issa is just the translation of his name , like 'Jesus' means Jmmanuel in cult-speak .The Jewish merchants may have been informed by the Plejar of Jmmanuel's crucifixion before the fact . MC | ||
Savio Senior Member Post Number: 660 Registered: 07-2000 |
Dear all As confirmed by Billy in a Q&A session, Jmmanuel did traveled to India during his young age (say 12 - 30). Answer: "...Therefore, they were not faithful ones, but knowledgeable ones. With a clear conscience one could call them as persons who did not belong to any denomination/religion. The same holds true for Jmmanuel who firstly was thought by his parents Joseph and Mary in the teachings, and later by his extraterrestrial "fathering-father" Gabriel, with whose help the young Jmmanuel went to India, but returned again sometimes later..." Salome Savio | ||
Phi_spiral Member Post Number: 538 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Mark Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but why would Jmmanuel need to travel under an alias before his crucifixion? Who would he be trying to distance himself from? The Notovitch narrative ends at the crucifixion. Hi Savio Thanks for the clarification. But I guess the real point I wanted to make about that was the time Jmmanuel spent in India and the general region thereabouts was far greater after his crucifixion and thus his impact on the region would have been far more measurable and more likely to have been chronicled in some fashion for his later years. If there was some documentation sequestered in the bowels and inner sanctums of centuries old Buddhist monasteries, I would think it far more likely that it would have surfaced as a testament to this period of his life. And perhaps that may still happen. But to me, the Notovitch document appears to have too much of an agenda serving flavor to it. That’s my opinion and I could be wrong. Regards Bob | ||
Smukhuti Member Post Number: 443 Registered: 06-2009 |
Yet another reference from TJ showig Jmmanuel was in India in his lost years. Chanter 29 23. "Furthermore, I have traveled extensively to faraway places and lived for many years in the land of India. There I was taught much knowledge and many secrets by the great wise and knowledgeable men who are known as masters. 24. "When I have fulfilled my mission here, I will return there with Thomas, my brother, who is a faithful disciple of mine. Salome. Suv | ||
Jim Member Post Number: 103 Registered: 07-2003 |
Hi Bob, A key uncertainty in it all is when and where the Lost Years (LY) document was first set into writing. It must have been written after the Gospel of Matthew had gained enough recognition to be circulated into Asia. E.g., in LY chap. 13, v. 10, and 14.1, Issa is condemned along with two thieves (the two were murderers, which the writer of Matthew altered into thieves. Also, nails were used to attach them to the crosses.) Such was scarcely known until Matthew appeared. And Matthew wasn't written until some time after a transcript of the TJ appeared in the Mideast -- well into the 2nd century. So, some time in the second century (or perhaps even 3rd century) a Buddhist monk or lama in India or Tibet, who had read Matthew, put two and two together and recognized that Matthew's "Jesus" was the same person who as a youngster in India had stirred things up in his travels there. So the name used for him had to be what he had become known as (thanks primarily to Paul), namely "Jesus" or "Joshua". But in India, the name used for Jesus had become Issa, and Isha, according to Abhedananda, means "Lord." This monk or lama then wrote the "Lost Years" document, which sympathizes with the Jewish clergy. Hence my guess is that he was one of the Buddhist clergy. Whether Issa was called "Immanuel" during those "lost years", or had adopted some other alias then, we may never know. But in order for the writer of the LY document to make clear who he was writing about, the name had to be altered into Issa. By mid-2nd century, I'd estimate, the name "Jesus" had almost totally replaced the name "Immanuel". Re your 2nd contradiction, Just because Billy didn't mention Jmmanuel's "lost years" in India in the Talmud of Jmmanuel's (TJ's) Foreword or Epilogue, doesn't mean he didn't know about it. He does, as Savio pointed out. And even the TJ mentions it, in TJ 29:23. Regarding the translations involved in the LY document, it's not clear to me that Notovitch's interpreter spoke in Russian to Notovitch. This interpreter had been recommended to Notovitch by a Frenchman, and Notovitch knew French. So it seems a bit more likely to me that the interpreter just gave his translation to Notovitch in French. Regarding an original "oral recollection in Hebrew" of the lost-years material, this according to the LY I.5 came from "the merchants from Israel." Since these persons had traveled from Israel to India/Tibet, they may have been returning to India/Tibet and not have been Hebrews. Yet, they probably spoke some form of Aramaic at least. The author of the original LY document likely knew of the Hebrew Scriptures, and so knew either Hebrew or Greek. Much of the LY's first 3 chapters probably came from its author's interpretation of the Scriptures. This author gave his own view throughout of what the young Issa had done while in India, based upon his oral sources. I have little idea of how much of it all, or how little, was based upon what the merchants traveling along the Silk Road reported. Much of this is indeed shrouded in uncertainty. Regarding Nawang Tsering's opinion, the book by Elizabeth Clare Prophet, which is all about the Lost Years and includes Notovitch's book within it, gives some independent indirect evidence that this LY manuscript had indeed existed at the Himis monastery. It is compelling evidence. | ||
Smukhuti Member Post Number: 444 Registered: 06-2009 |
Hi Bob, I cannot be sure that the accounts in the book The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ are all authentic - translation error may of course be there, so may be possibility of misinterpretation. But after rummaging through various sources, I have come to the conclusion (and other may differ) that Notovich was in general truthful in his account. Swami Abhedananda as well as another Russian (some Roerich) confirmed his story. Edward T Martin and his book “King of Travellers: Jesus’s Lost Years in India” is closely aligned to Notovich’s account, though not exactly identical and differ at places. Christians are still referred as Issai (those who follow Issa) in India. There may be several reasons behind this name sticking: A) Jmmanuel, being difficult to pronounce by Sanskrit/Pali educated people, he used a name like that. B) Jmmanuel used his original name. Later on, the legend of Jesus arrived in India. People related accounts of Jmmanuel to that of Jesus. Jesus, Yesu and Issa being close in pronunciation, this easier name stuck. C) Many other reasons…. Jmmanuel was in India both during his lost years and also after his crucifixion till death. TJ 18:63. "My friends from faraway India, who are well versed in the art of healing, will be my caretakers and will help me flee from the tomb on the third day, so that I then may finish my mission among the people of India. How could he make friends in India if he had not been in India before? Savio cited the source I wanted to add as additional proof in this regard. Plus in some bulletin/contact note also it is mentioned (need to check). Nobody would be able to do a proper investigation on Notovich’s account. The Himis monastery now vehemently denies that any such manuscript ever existed. There may be a political reason behind this. Dalai Lama is residing in India and he may not antagonise Indian political leadership. Indian government has very close ties with Christian majority countries including the U.S.America. Imagine the shock it would generate if it comes to public light that Jmmanuel spent his lost years in India – first thing that would happen is that Hindu and Buddhist religious leader would claim that Jmmanuel plagiarised spiritual knowledge from Hindu or Buddhist teaching. Already few years ago, a Hindu religious leader threatened that he has proof that Jesus Christ was in Puri learning Hindu teaching. Imagine the mass of conversion it would generate in the Christian countries to Hinduism and Buddhism. This is heretical. Salome. Suv | ||
Eddieamartin Member Post Number: 20 Registered: 08-2010 |
Hello Jim, Thank you for the contribution and your response. In regards to hypnotherapy and past-life regression; interestingly to me, Ptaah had given an explanation regarding the unreliability of such in one of the Contact Notes. For example. I have friends, some are hypnotherapists and one a scientist working with programmable matter at Northrup Grumman who has had it done and expressed that he does not recommend it too much and feels that "the suggestions from the therapist may have too much influence on the regressed information" - which interestingly correlates with what Ptaah had said. On a personal level my friend, I am familiar with the experience and wish to pursue the relationship the experience has with the particular Laws of Creation as this cognition impacts our personal & spiritual evolution. From actual 'dying and returning' experiences where one stands at the edge, have you, or anyone else on this forum(?) received any cognition and growth that would be of importance to consider and discuss; that we may mutually benefit and grow spiritually? Warm regards, Eddie [7:-) | ||
Elreyjr Member Post Number: 181 Registered: 01-2009 |
Dear Suv, "The Himis monastery now vehemently denies that any such manuscript ever existed. There may be a political reason behind this." Oh well, may the proper time be soon. How about other materials referring to the record of the time Jmmanuel was in the land of India after the crucifixion? Jun My will be done | ||
Markcampbell Member Post Number: 546 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hi Bob ; I was under the impression that his name Issa or Isa was used in his travels from Jerusalem to Srinagar , and that would be after the crucifixion . I assume from your post that I misunderstood what I read some years ago .I think that I skimmed over the parts about Notovich's treks though the snow ,how he almost died , and looked for the parts that coincided with Jmmanuel . I thought that Notovich's writings covered Jmmanuel's visit to Hemis , but I guess that's wrong ....by what you write . It's easy for me to to comprehend that a name like Jmmanuel can become a name like Jesus or anything else in another language . The Indian people of those times wouldn't call him 'Jesus' , unless I am mistaken about that . So , they likely had a different name for him , which meant something in their language , kind of like how we can't possibly call "Japan" by it's real name , it's too long and complicated .So , Issa , sounds to me like an Indian name , or the Notovich claim is fake . It doesn't do anything for my understanding , except that I don't need to know about it anymore , and so am free of any conflict over it . | ||
Smukhuti Member Post Number: 445 Registered: 06-2009 |
Thanks Jim for your explanations. Jun, book that deals particularly with Jmmanuels teaching in India after his crucifixion is not known to me. Most books provide a general arguement - for or against the concept only. Abhedananda was a close friend of Max Müller and they both initially blasted Notovich. But while Max Müller never visited Hemis, Abhedananda did, and found evidence supporting Notovich's claim. According to Abhedananda, the original document were in Pali, while the manuscripts in Hemis were Tibetan translations. Max Müller remained a lifelong Notovich sceptic and differences arose with Abhedananda on this topic. "Journey into Kashmir and Tibet" by Abhedananda is a wothwhile read if you want to hear from a sceptic turned supporter. The original book is in Bengali - "Kashmir o Tibbate" and was translated later to English: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0874816432/qid=1123622434/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-7053943-4023240?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 "King of Travelers" by Edward Martin (ISBN: 0967240832) must have been a good read since its movie adaptation "Jesus in India - King of Wisdom" accompanied by a book namesake is interesting: http://www.jesus-in-india-the-movie.com/html/kingofwisdom.html Another book I want to read - "Jesus Lived in India" by Holger Kersten (ISBN: 0906540909). There are other books – Google 'Jesus Lost Year books'. Salome. Suv | ||
Phi_spiral Member Post Number: 539 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi Jim Even if one gets past the argument of so many people claiming that the Notovitch document exists versus so many people claiming that the document does not exist, among whom includes the very same Chief Lama, who, according to Notovitch, took him in at Himis and nursed him and whose original sworn document appeared in The Nineteenth Century whereby the abbot claims in sworn testimony that Notovitch is a liar, a copy of which can be found halfway down this website: http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/scanned/notovitch.htm which, by the way, I find more compelling than what is found in Elizabeth Clare Prophet’s book which you referenced and I have also read; the same Elizabeth Clare Prophet who also claimed to channel Mother Mary, St. Germain, El Morya, Archangel Michael, Jesus Christ, the Elohim and various other etheric friends du jour; and whose record of lies, deceits and cons I have on file from former members of her church some who exited her cult with the assistance of Joe Szimhart; even if we get past all that and assume for this discussion that Notovitch, Roerich and Abhedananda all saw “something” in common - that itself is not proof that the document was authentic. If the document was mostly the inspired compilation of a monk, as depicted in your hypothetical scenario, then that would be a document whose only value would be as a curiosity. On the other hand, if it was mostly the firsthand account of traveling merchants, then there is the potential for credibility. But as you said, there’s no way of knowing for sure which it is. And that is the entirety of my point. The document has no reliable value. Perhaps the reason the monastery denies its’ existence is that they recognize that unreliability. And whether the merchants spoke Hebrew or Aramaic makes no difference, it is still one language removed from the alleged recorded Pali. In the Notovitch document, you can still see some of the same Judeo-Christian lexicon that can be found in other apocrypha books and is refreshingly absent in the Talmud Jmmanuel. If original copies were dispersed to other monasteries as claimed, one wonders why they have not shown up elsewhere. Who knows - perhaps someday they will. Regards Bob | ||
Jim Member Post Number: 104 Registered: 07-2003 |
Hello Again Bob, If the Lost Years document was real, then we know of only one person in a position to have denied its existence, and he had every reason to (falsely) do so. The head Lama at Himis had a very good idea of what would happen to the document and probably also their library if he were to admit it was true to an outsider, a professor, who obviously wished it didn't exist. With your solution, you are assuming that Notovitch was an inventive liar, also Swami Abhedananda, then also, you are accusing Madame Elizabeth Caspari (who later founded the first Montessori School in the U.S.) as a liar, plus, independently, Edward F. Noack, and Robert Ravicz, once professor of anthropology at California State University at Northridge. Or, I suppose you would rather assume that Elizabeth Clare Prophet lied about all those names. It is interesting that several people with close connections to the Jagannath Temple (e.g., the Shankaracharyas of Puri) have admitted knowing from their documents of the young Issa having spent time there. That is, Juggernaut is the place that the LY document says Issa spent six years at. I'll agree with you in not placing any credence in whatever E. C. Prophet has channeled; I know no connection between such channeled material and her research on the Lost Years evidence. But that Head Librarian at Himis Monastery had exceedingly strong motivation to have lied to the hostile Prof. Douglas about Notovitch having been there. Yet there is evidence that Notovitch had indeed been at Leh, besides the extensive descriptions in his book. Regards, Jim |
