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    Patm Member Post Number: 641 Registered: 07-2006 |
@Joseph_emmanuel From Questions to Billy, Answered - Archive of July 28, 2012 http://forum.figu.org/us/messages/12/12282.html?1343521600#POST61314 Reader Response:----- Your Answers about Near Death Experiences were.. "You cannot prove this by a "scientific experiment". A human being can prove this to himself if his consciousness-related evolutionary level has progressed enough. The experiences made by the personalities of the Nokodemion-Henok spirit form (which encompass billions of years) – through a process of a huge number of reincarnations – prove the correctness of the information. Experiences during a near-death situation have nothing in common with real death and the following existence in the other world (Jenseits). Such people have not more knowledge than before the accident etc., but they are deeply impressed by the effects they have experienced during their near-death state. Falsely assuming that they had been on the other side of death, they lose their angst of death, and this fundamentally changes their view of life. If it is really (!) the case that they have gathered new facts it is by intuition, but certainly not information from the other side / the other world. (Note by CF: What's beyond death cannot be experimented and proven, at least not with terrestrial science. Earth scientist have not even yet detected spiritual energy or that there are seven stages/levels down from the atom!) " Reader Question:------ Thank You for sharing your thoughts about what happens to us when we die. I really don’t understand what you mean by “A human being can prove this to himself..” A fact should be provable to everyone. Personally I see belief as nothing more than a current unproven theory someone tends to incorporate in there thinking as having some evidence to support it. The danger of belief is, people forget there belief is not proven, and start behaving as if there theory is actually a proven truth. Until it is actually proven to be true it always must remain in its proper category as" theory only" . What happens to us when we die" can not be experimented with or proven " You have stated this twice in my conversations with you about Near Death Experiences. You also state,” if people having NDE's are gaining new factual information" while in the physical state of death; they could be gaining this information by intuition. The definition of" intuition "according to the dictionary is "the ability to acquire knowledge without inference or the use of reason". Inference is defined as "the act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true" . My 4 main points are 1. All facts and truth must be first processed as a belief and graduated into true factual knowledge once undeniable evidence is able to support it. It used to be believed, the world was flat. A few people "believed" it was round. This was a belief that was proven to be fact. Many times you have stated a “belief can never be proven”. Some beliefs end up as provable fact. 2. What ever proof you have about the death experience is proof that terrestrial humans probably can’t understand. 3. The death experience "CAN be experimented with and studied". Study the experiences of those who have had NDE's. The physical state of death can be carefully medically induced for short periods with volunteers to help gain further valuable evidence of the death experience. After being on the other side almost everyone comes back as a much better person. This is the value I see in this type of research. Your lifetime of good teaching does not affect people the way 5 minute on the other side does, unfortunately. 4. If a person who temporarily dies, gains new factual information that makes them a better person, it’s not important how they got the information. What's important is, this new information makes them a much better person! Which again; is my main interest; in this type of research. My question is: If 1000 people were placed in a temporary state of physical death and 900 of them came back with new factual information and an equal or greater, amount of them, came back as a remarkably better person, wouldn’t that be a valuable tool to help us evolve? Kinda like a 5 minute microwave version of everything your trying to teach us! I do understand this type of research would involve considerable risk, but the accelerated evolution of who we are, seems quite relevant to the dangerously low level of evolution we are at right now. Besides that, I see no reason why the other side should be hidden from me. Am I to stupid to process what I could learn there? I feel like I’m on a field trip to help others find love they can not see or feel or understand in the physical world. This is how someone builds real wealth as I see it If this is a repost of same question I asked earlier please disregard Answer from Billy ----------- Your thought experiment is illogical. Either a person is dead, or not. You cannot place a person into a temporary state of physical death. Therefore, reports from near-death experiences (NDE) are always reports about the individuals' thoughts, fanatasies etc. When the brain is lacking oxygene, seeing a tunnel of light etc. is a normal effect. And when people, who experienced a NDE, are seeing a situation from above, this has to do with an increased activity of the consciousness-powers as it is the case in the agony phase of a dying person. (Note by CF: Regarding your "I see no reason why the other side should be hidden from me" I refer to the fact that you will arrive there sooner or later and then can make up your own mind. Regarding your present life and your evolution it is absolutely irrelevant to know what "happens" in the other world. It is a person's thinking HERE in your present existence which is decisive regarding one's path of evolution. And since in the "other side/the other world there is no consciousness, there are also no thoughts present which you could see or feel etc.) ------ Hope this helps Salome PatM | ||
Justsayno Member Post Number: 828 Registered: 10-2009 |
http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Death,_Afterlife_and_Rebirth "When people see tunnels or loved ones when they are in a life threating situation like a heart attack or stroke, or anything else, then its nothing more then a lack of oxygen, or imbalance in the hormonal make-up of the brain which causes the Material consciousness and Material subconsiousness to generate tunnel effects, 'Jesus' and god experiences, just like the way people have lived and thought all their lives. Religious people will often see helper-spirits, god, jesus, Mary, etc. There are as much near-death experiences as there are people." Good, better, best. May you never rest, until your good is better, and your better best. | ||
Joseph_emmanuel Member Post Number: 428 Registered: 05-2004 |
Thanks once again. So in conclusion, during the final moments when one is dying to the point when one is dead, there is no conscious experience of any kind, just darkness. One switches off, like going to sleep: you close your eyes and then nothing. We are no more. | ||
Joseph_emmanuel Member Post Number: 429 Registered: 05-2004 |
"The basic personality is based on what the Spiritform needs to learn, which means that certain experiences are required to gain a certain knowledge." -- Death, Afterlife and Rebirth As human beings in the world we are individual and have free will and yet we are compelled to follow certain rules and regulations as a way of maintaining order, and in this sense life in the world directs us. Therefore, to a certain extent our lives can be said to be guided. Likewise, the spirtiform is individual and follows its own course according to its evolution. But it is also the case that the spiritual realm is the world in which the spiritform dwells and so its life in this realm must also be said to be guided other than by its own volition. Now taking this into consideration with reference to the above quote, there seems to be some implication of what is to be expected in the material world, which leads me to think that a new life must at least have a blue print, an outline, of its course. And if that's the case, then how does that relate to a situation (war, murder, disease, accident) that cuts short its time in the world? Are these events, these disturbances, accounted for prior to reincarnation? | ||
Joseph_emmanuel Member Post Number: 430 Registered: 05-2004 |
I would like to ask about the basic personality that the CCB creates from the old personality and with which it and the spiritform return to material life. This is clearly a case of "wiping the slate clean". A basic personality is a nascent personality that needs to be developed through experience in the world. My confusion with this, however, is that I have always thought that one's personality was somehow inherent, which is not to say fully developed, but with enough characteristics present to distinguish one child from another. Imagine the scenario where a child is being raised by a parent and the parent is aggressive and domineering and overprotective. That child then grows with the parent's personality overwhelming his own to the point that the child doesn't know his own personality. Yet if all we have at birth is a basic personality, it can't be said that we have distinct characteristics and so when a parent imposes her personality onto the child, preventing the child's basic personality from developing, there are no personal characteristics that the child can identify with and say "This is who I am", but rather the child either retains the parent's characteristics or finds himself lost within himself. With a basic personality this must surely be the way this scenario would progress for a child. -------------------------------------------- "When the human dies, his Personality (Personality and Consciousness are the same and integrated in the Comprehensive Consciousness Block) will transfer over to a Spirit-realm..." -- Death, Afterlife and Rebirth When I think of personality, I don't think of consciousness, but of characteristics and qualities that make up a person's character and identity. By contrast, when I think of consciousness, I think of something more ethereal that animates the mind, but without personality. To me, and to most people in the world, they are two very distinct things, and yet in Death, Afterlife and Rebirth it states they are the same thing. How is this? | ||
Getknowledge Member Post Number: 216 Registered: 04-2008 |
A personality as an individual wesen. Each person born is a personality. Every blade of grass, every flower, every leaf, every snowflake is it's own personality. Many people's true personalities are hidden. The Globlet of Truth talks about the inner and outer personality. For background information what books have you read so far, Joseph_emmanuel? Tien | ||
Joseph_emmanuel Member Post Number: 434 Registered: 05-2004 |
I've recently just heard about an American weekly webcast called The Atheist Experience, which has been broadcasting for twenty-one years. The topics discussed are very interesting, although the arguments put forward by callers, many of whom are religious, aren't convincing. Two of the hosts, Tracie Harris and Matt Dillahunty, are very intelligent people using logic to the very best of their ability. Most people who call to speak to them usually make themselves sound like they don't know what they're saying or thinking. But some people call in to discuss things such as spiritual evolution and reincarnation, and without the scientific evidence to demonstrate these, the hosts immediately dismiss them, preferring to take the position of "I don't know" rather than to assert and speculate and to believe in something without proof of possibility. I would like to ask, how can you go about demonstrating the reality of reincarnation using evidence from the physical world? Is this at all possible? | ||
Joseph_emmanuel Member Post Number: 435 Registered: 05-2004 |
Further to my previous post, how can you demonstrate that something spiritual exists, that the spirit exists? And if we are unable to demonstrate this and, therefore, unable to prove it, does that mean that we should look only to what we know and can see - to physical reality - to guide our lives? I can't honestly say that I have a spirit because I can't prove it, not even to myself. I can't say I know I have a spirit. I can only say I believe I have a spirit. But that belief to someone who does not believe is not a true belief because there is no evidence to prove it is true, and so therefore it is a false belief according to rational thinking and, therefore, logic. Because our scientists aren't able to prove the existence of the spirit, is it rational and right, to dismiss the spirit until we are able to prove it exists? | ||
Eddieamartin Member Post Number: 955 Registered: 08-2010 |
Joseph_emmanuel you bring up a good question (post 434). On YouTube, I have found an impressive amount of videos, uploaded by parents, regarding reincarnation evidence. In these videos, the children's accounts of a former life are, impressive, when it comes to corroboration. If they and/or their producer were to be made aware of these videos, perhaps they would be open to a logical discussion of the corroborating and alleged evidence. Salome, Eddie In the *Goblet of the Truth* there it says: Live always in love and in peace, foster freedom and harmony on Earth and never forget the real truth. Foster your life always in goodness of heart and live in the true BEING of the Creation. The *Goblet of the Truth* will wake you, not to the bane - but to the boon. (pg.3) | ||
Redbeard Member Post Number: 309 Registered: 04-2006 |
Joseph, I once asked billy if there was any a way that the plejaren had to prove the existence of reincarnation ( paraphrasing) and his reply was to the need to prove it within oneself. Along with a rather terse comment from Christian that seemed be an indication that my question was somehow unnecessary. Well one thing is for sure whether all believers of whatever the idea is, is that the playing field is level, as no one can really prove much of anything to the satisfaction of all. I heard a scientific/ logical discussion once around the concept of the examination of evidence that the more credible and numerous that said evidence was then more likely that a given idea or event could be possible or plausible. Being that the playing field is level then we can also assume that many ideas cannot also be disproved. The problem lies with certain lines of belief or non-belief tend towards an exclusionary foundation of those things that don’t fit the mindset or cause. The idea that one cannot prove or disprove something/concepts that it then is cancelled from all future discussions or considerations is of course, well to me, unintelligent and a very narrow approach to possibilities or ideas. I do think about the spirit of humans and animals in the context of it charging or enlivening the body as billy has laid out and that has some merit with me. The idea that the spirit and consciousness block go through millions of go rounds , now that is a tough one to grapple with for anyone , especially I’ve noticed with people who have an ego issue. Peace, Matt... | ||
Niko_sulonen Member Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2008 |
Joseph_emmanuel, One way to demonstrate reincarnation in the physical world would be using a tree's seasonal cycle. Imagine that the tree itself is the spirit, or the entity that gathers and stores all the required components for it's growth, and the leaves it grows every spring are the new consciousness and personality, whose role is to make possible the continued growth of the tree. This same principle can be applied to pretty much everything in the living nature and out in the cosmos. Also the law of polarity gives us a hint of the spiritual, since every value in existence has also an opposite value to counterbalance it. There is negative to positive, anti-matter to matter, darkness to light etc., and one would then also conclude there is spiritual to material. However the human being lets his/her imagination run wild when it comes to the world of the spiritual, because in most cases he/she can't understand it and all too easily accepts some readily available explanation (i.e. religions) to bring some kind of closure for himself/herself. Truly, that is just laziness and feeble-mindedness on their part, because the human being has a consciousness and its powers of rational thought to find out the truths of existence within themselves, and the feelings to guide them accordingly. I recognize my path, which is the truth and living in accordance with it. I carry out my mission for life and for the fulfillment of life. I abide by the creational laws and recommendations, which reign in me as true love and wisdom. | ||
Getknowledge Member Post Number: 220 Registered: 04-2008 |
If you read the GOT it suggests that life itself is evidence of the spirit. Spirit means awakening creational energy. The spirit-form and material-form are two parts that form a unity. You have to change your thinking from purely materialistic based only what can be seen and measured this is how to comprehend the material universal belt. Tien | ||
Joseph_emmanuel Member Post Number: 436 Registered: 05-2004 |
The truth of the matter is, there is no evidence of the spirit. Science is not yet able to prove its existence. A logical argument may be made for it, but without scientific evidence, it proves nothing. We who believe, whether it is in something true or false, or all in the same dilemma: we can't prove what we believe. Therefore, I am inclined to agree that it is only within ourselves we need to prove it, which is to say that beliefs are a private matter that have no place in the world until they are given a place through scientific investigation. Sadly this is not the case as many areas of our lives are dictated by our beliefs, or worse by other people's beliefs. | ||
Niko_sulonen Member Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2008 |
I see what you mean Joseph, when viewed from a purely scientific viewpoint. The time for scientifically proving the existence of the human spirit-form is still in the far future. Still, I don't think it falls under the matter of belief until then. Observing the nature and existence will provide all the answers for the human being. In my opinion it should be enough to recognize that one isn't separate of nature and its laws and is the creator of their own life through their thoughts and feelings and therefore fully responsible for it. It is the undeniable truth. Anything beyond that starts to become subjective and falls into the area of border-sciences or spiritual-sciences, on the threshold of the tangible and intangible. Those sciences do not unfortunately have a foothold in our society yet. But it can be said that the concept of a human being is an universal one, and thus, contains the universal truth within it. I recognize my path, which is the truth and living in accordance with it. I carry out my mission for life and for the fulfillment of life. I abide by the creational laws and recommendations, which reign in me as true love and wisdom. | ||
Eddieamartin Member Post Number: 956 Registered: 08-2010 |
I would say the following regarding evidence of the spirit. Spirit/spirituality is evidence based. This is what I find fascinating about the spiritual teaching, it emphasizes rational and logical thinking. If something exists in our reality, then it can be quantified. If undetectable by the human eye or science, then it will provide its own evidence. Spirituality I would say is water where spirit are the H2O atoms. If the teaching is correct, then its instructions will be proven. But one must put in the effort. Salome, Eddie In the *Goblet of the Truth* there it says: Live always in love and in peace, foster freedom and harmony on Earth and never forget the real truth. Foster your life always in goodness of heart and live in the true BEING of the Creation. The *Goblet of the Truth* will wake you, not to the bane - but to the boon. (pg.3) | ||
Patm Member Post Number: 651 Registered: 07-2006 |
For those interested: Our drawing depicting the Reincarnation-Incarnation Process has been corrected/updated and can be found at: https://creationaltruth.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=0biaVJREz9M%3d&tabid=305&portalid=0 Salome & Happy Birthday Billy! | ||
Kenneth Member Post Number: 936 Registered: 04-2013 |
Excellent, thank you Patm; That's right; Happy Birthday to BEAM. So thankful for all that he has done and is doing for us Earthlings. Kenneth | ||
Msmichelle Member Post Number: 487 Registered: 02-2010 |
PATM, great piece of work (post 651) MsMichelle | ||
Tat_tvam_asi Member Post Number: 965 Registered: 04-2011 |
A truly creative mind at work - Thank you, Pat. Salome, Bill | ||
Cpl Member Post Number: 1043 Registered: 08-2004 |
Back to the spirit-reincarnation discussion: I think you are getting there Eddie in your post 956, but I would say it goes further; that the spirit in the water is beneath the seven levels beneath the H2O atoms. That's why it is impossible to currently prove scientifically. The proof of spirit for me is that I see it as the very essence of life. I cannot encapsulate life and test it, only its manifestation in physical form. I know that I have life: it does not require belief or testing. Unless I go unconscious. That, to me, is spirit, and the existence of every person and thing that lives demonstrates it. Chris Use fully to the best both heart and head and never lose either. | ||
Eddieamartin Member Post Number: 969 Registered: 08-2010 |
If our scientists arduously studied the Goblet of the Truth, they would make leaps and bounds in discoveries. Because contained in the Goblet of the Truth, specifically the "teaching of the truth" is, the empirical thesis of spirit and all that exists. Chris, I once met with the panel of scientists that presented to aerospace industry engineers, university students, etc. The panel members are directly developing the architecture and technologies for Moon & Mars colonization as well as asteroid mining. We met privately in the bar after the event and had an interesting discussion. What I learned from them corroborated what Ptaah explained. Long story short, they had not recognized the difference between religiosity and spirituality. The atom is viewed from the outside inwards, hence the failure to consider what is evidently the inner most part of the atom. The good thing is that through quantum physics, they have actually observed evidence of the spiritual. Because without spirit there is no atom. Without the spirit and consciousness there is no influence of the observer. As a child, I had waved my hand back and forth feeling the air and then straining to see the air. Eventually at one point shortly after that, I was shown what air is -but consider what the Goblet of the Truth states; "one cannot wave their hand from side to side without touching the Creation." Every scientist should consider the following: Spirit requires no evidence, spirit provides and is, its own evidence. We simply need to shift and change our approach and method of observation in order to see (recognize) it. Salome, Eddie In the *Goblet of the Truth* there it says: Live always in love and in peace, foster freedom and harmony on Earth and never forget the real truth. Foster your life always in goodness of heart and live in the true BEING of the Creation. The *Goblet of the Truth* will wake you, not to the bane - but to the boon. (pg.3) | ||
Cpl Member Post Number: 1044 Registered: 08-2004 |
Exactly as I see it, Eddie. Chris Use fully to the best both heart and head and never lose either. | ||
Corey Member Post Number: 528 Registered: 10-2016 |
Dear All, I don't know if PatM posted this link yet for the forums, but I found his translation of this important topic: Changing Gender Form Hi Corey, I modified your link, because originally the link went through Face Book.-Scott (Message edited by scott on June 27, 2019) Salome, Corey Müske. -"Kelch der Wahrheit"/"Goblet of the Truth" ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- 22:08: " Werdet ihr Menschen vom Unglück verfolgt und könnt ihr euer Leben nicht so harmonisch gestalten, wie ihr das gerne möchtet, dann vermögt ihr dies zu ändern, wenn ihr euch dem Einklang der kosmischen Ordnung und damit den schöpferischen Gesetzen und Geboten zuwendet und sie befolgt." 22:08: "If you human beings are pursued by the unfortune and are unable to form your lives as harmoniously as you would like, then you are able to change this if you turn to the consonance of the cosmic regulation and therefore to the creational laws and recommendations, and follow them." |
