| Author | Message | ||
    68tibbs New member Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2006 |
Hi Mark. It is interesting to recall that Martin Scorcese's film, The Last Temptation of Christ, depicted Paul in a similar light as the TJ. At any rate, what makes you so sure that the TJ account of Paul is correct? I have noticed that some people accept the TJ on the basis of the Meier case itself, his experiences, the photos, the 8mm film footage, etc., instead of on the basis of any critical reading of the TJ, which, I will admit, requires the knowledge of at least German and English, let alone Aramaic and Hebrew. Jim Deardorff, however, has remedied most of that trouble through his efforts and research. Not trained as a biblical scholar, Deardorff, nevertheless, is well read and presents his case cogently and readably. He actually writes as if he has been trained in biblical studies. The TJ needs a critical voice as his. I sure do wish we had those old (alleged) Aramaic scrolls that Meier found with Rashid. (Have any of you read the Gospel of Judas, and if so, do you find it relevant for the TJ or Meier case?) When I read the German text of the TJ, some of it does not find immediate correspondence to an Aramaic Vorlage, i.e., an Aramaic text underlying the German. Maybe Rashid or Meier were paraphrasing instead of giving a literal translation. Translation is a hairy business. I have had experiences reading Aramaic texts of the Dead Sea Scrolls that is near equivalent to the Aramaic used in Palestine during the 1st century CE. One might paraphrase, give a literal rendering, or attempt an idiomatic translation that might straddle between paraphrase and literal. It's enough to make you want to pull your hair out. It's not enough to know the meanings of words. You have to know how the language works, what it can and can't do and how this is either facilited or distorted by English. Learning this can be brutal. It's all about endurance and tenacity. As an aside, do any of you know if Meier has footage of a ship landing on its tripod legs and the occupant getting out of the ship? So often I've viewed his 8mm footage and wondered, OK, now, just land right there and let's see the tripod landing gear emerge--you've come this far, now just a liiittle further. Clint | ||
Norm Member Post Number: 915 Registered: 02-2000 |
There is a picture of the ship landed with legs down but it was cut at the legs for analysis. My Website | ||
Michael Member Post Number: 520 Registered: 10-2000 |
Hi Clint, There is footage of the next best thing, i.e. one segment where the ship hovers at the top of the screen, then moves about 1/4 mile away, goes BEHIND A HILL, then slowly flies back to the center of the screen and hovers there. In other words, IMPOSSIBLE for someone with a model to do. You can see some analysis of that segment at: http://www.tjresearch.info/bachtel.htm. Also, on the same video, there is a segment with a UFO hovering in the sky, above a hill and Meier walks into the picture wiht the UFO hovering in the distance ABOVE HIS HEAD. This same video has other amazing, daylight film segments, such as three UFOs hovering, two disappear in a blink, a UFO that Meier zooms in on with two lights that flash alternately (again, in broad daylight), the famous circling the tree and farm house and other amazing film segments. You can find the (VHS) video here: http://www.theyfly.com/products/products.htm#movie Michael Horn | ||
Markc Member Post Number: 341 Registered: 06-2000 |
Hi Clint ; In reading your insights into the translations from ancient Aramaic to German , I was glad to read the opinion of someone who evidently has some experience with the old language . I have thought that any era will have colloqialisms that either won't be understood at all by people of later times , or they will seem somehow inappropriate for the ideas they represent ( because times have made some things rare to the common person , like wineskins for example) . Of course , word for word translation in any language pair is nearly impossible . The reason that the TJ account of Paul rings true with me ,is from my observation of human nature . He was an enemy to Jmmanuel and his disciples . Naturally , after the principal was out of the picture , Paul took over the whole matter into his own hands . Of course you would have to reconstruct in your own mind what a current day parallel would be like : Tipper Gore as a Rapper ? Ken Starr having affairs with women half his age ? Bad analogies I admit , but the best I could do on short notice . People who once hounded others , suddenly turned completely around to do exactly what they hated before . Another aspect of my understanding of this is that when I first learned about "jesus" and his 'teachings' , I could at least recognize that what represented his words stood out from the entire NT as being of a different kind of thought altogether . Not once did the book quote him to say " worship me " . So here in the far future , worship is naturally the biggest part of the whole religion . When I first read the TJ , it was like hearing the Beatles for the first time , after only hearing bad Japanese Karaoke versions of their songs all your life . I also trust Billy Meier's opinion and his conviction . That is something that you can't really explain to another person , and it weighs no more when you say it to someone , than when someone says that they trust the movie account of Moses , because they thought Charlton Heston made a convincing Moses . Or that the Pharoah would have been good in 'The King and I'. I guess the best thing I could recommend to you is to read on with this material . It's the only real way to peice the puzzle together to make your own conclusions , and also I recommend reading the books in available in English , or in German , if you can . Regards , Mark Mark Campbell | ||
68tibbs New member Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2006 |
Mark, The New Testament neither records Jesus as saying 'worship me.' Matter of fact, worship of any being besides God is condemned in the New Testament. See Colossians 2:18 and Revelation 22:9. There is A LOT more to the Pauline literature than condemning it all out-of-hand simply because of the way Paul is portrayed in the TJ. Much of his "theology" is in line with early Judaism's messianic expectations and belief in resurrection from the dead, which did not refer to physical death but rather to the resurrection of the spirit from the spiritually dead (Hell, for the lack of a better word) to the spiritually living (Heaven, for the lack of a better word) via reincarnation, as many rebirths as it took to achieve permanent residency, if you will, in Heaven. See Revelation 3:12. I had the same experience that you had with the TJ with the Greber book. Just as the TJ rang true for you, the Greber book rang true for me back in 1992. I had read the TJ and Deardorff's Celestian Teachings at around that time too, as well as plowing through the Blavatsky stuff, Isis Unveiled and The Secret Doctrine. I read the TJ and Deardorff before I read the Greber book. Yet, it was the Greber that resonated with me, for some reason. I find it interesting that different people have different texts that ring true for them. For some, it is the Urantia Book; others, the TJ; still others, the Acquarian Gospel of Jesus; or the Edgar Cayce lit.; or the White Eagle lit.; etc., etc. It's a jungle out there! And discernment is very very difficult. One person's falsehood is another's truth. Jeece. While there is much to commend Deardorff's explanations for the TJ, the TJ leaves many many other things in relation to early Christianity and early Judsiam, as well as the Old Testament for that matter, unanswered and unexplored. But, that would take a book. Clint | ||
Markc Member Post Number: 345 Registered: 06-2000 |
Actually , Clint , I have actual experience reading Paul's words from when I was younger , so to say that I dismiss it out of hand from the TJ is really not fair to me ,to anyone who has an empirical opinion ; that is , an opinion formed from actually being acquainted with the material . If you re-read all of Paul's words thoroughly , you might just get the impression that he was on his own little journey of self-discovery , of loving his fellow man . Being everyone's enemy before , and then making it all about him and his 'love' . I know alot of people like his work , but that in itself doesn't make it relevant to Jmmanuel's truth ; it just shows that many people are religious minded . And they like rowing down that river in a little row-boat together .If there were not strength in numbers in it , then it would be a scarce few who would be devoted to it , I dare say . But you are due your opinion , and I wish you well with your Blatavskys and the writings of Pauline . I tend to make my comments , conclude my thoughts quickly and pass on pointless arguments , so thank you , and good day . Mark Campbell | ||
Savio Senior Member Post Number: 555 Registered: 07-2000 |
Dear all Let’s suppose that the story of God and Paul is real. If we take a look into the Gospels and the messages written by Paul, we can easily see a big difference between the two. What Jesus preached within the Gospels is very simple, it can be summed up in a few words as “love thy neighbors”. However, what Paul had written is far above this, thousands and thousands of words, detailing how to worship, what to worship, what to believe, how to understand God’s will, how to live a life… he actually spoke for his God! How is it possible that a ‘human’ expressed in such an authoritative way that is far above his creator expressed in the Gospels? Think about this and we can find answers for ourselves. Regards Savio | ||
68tibbs Member Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2006 |
The Talmud of Jmmanuel has always been a little frustrating to me, even when I had come to the realization in college that the church(es) lack substantial meaning and are, more or less, followed blindly without much reflection or critical thought. At that point I began looking elsewheres and trying to educate myself about the bible and its history and transmission. One discrepency that has bugged me is the statement that John the Baptist is Elijah (reincarnated) in TJ ch. 11, lines 18,19, and 24. That's fine, but according to the fragment showing an alleged lineage of prophets from Elijah (Elia) to Billi, John the Baptist is not part of that reincarnated spirit's lineage, instead, it is Jmmaneul, implying the Elijah came back as Jmmaneul and not as John, as the Talmud states. The fragment is in Message, vol 4, pages 15-18. Also, having learned Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac, (and German, what a difficult language!) I find that, if the German is a good translation of the alleged Aramaic text, then there occur anachronisms in the TJ that cannot be found anywhere else in the extant early Jewish literature. One would think that something of the contents of the TJ would have survived elsewheres, or would have been quoted by opponents of the TJ text during the 2nd-4th centuries, which was often done by both pagan and Christian authors. Sometimes, our knowledge and reconstruction of a given text comes right from the quotes of that text from an author who is trying to belittle it with arguments against it. He quotes the text, then argues with it. Celsus did this with Origen. Our knowledge of parts of Gnosticism comes directly from the quotes of Christian authors such as Hippolytus. There is a mine of fascinating information and the alternative forms of Christianity that abounded during the first few centuries CE found in the Ante-Nicene literature. It is natural that without the Aramaic text of the TJ, biblical scholars will not take such a document seriously. Just imagine if all we had of the Dead Sea Scrolls was an English translation without any of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts and fragments to check and verify and study? But, I do see the importance in the issue of UFOs, and the Meier case boasts of some very heavy evidence, especially the 8mm film footage that I have seen many times back in the early 1990s and now on the internet. And that tends to lend interest in the occupants of those crafts and what they have to say, and the Talmud is one of those things. I've always thought that if we can gain a proper understanding of the ancient texts that we actually have at our disposal in Hebrew and Greek, the Old and New Testaments, with full knowledge of all their textual problems, but with an eye to their historical milieu and setting, then maybe we can begin to form some kind of a picture of things; and that picture, I have come to find is nothing like that which contemporary Christianity (even in academia!) expounds. Eventually, an honest objective evaluation will lead one to the arena of, for the lack of a better word, the supramundane world, encompassing spirits, UFOs, spirit possession, etc. This world is thick with briers and discernment is everything. If i've come across a bit too strong-headed, I apologize. I am still seeking and am still in the arena of "I Think". I've yet to have experiences of a personal nature that will bring me over into "I KNOW." It is a fascinating subject to say the least; one that very few academics ponder honestly, objectively, and seriously. But there needs to be a good balance between subjective and objective thought in this field. I'm sneered at by friends in my field whenever I raise the issue of UFOs. Oh well. Clint | ||
Norm Member Post Number: 925 Registered: 02-2000 |
A corrected version of the TJ will be out at the end of the summer, hopefully. There were a few errors in the last editions. My Website | ||
Norm Member Post Number: 927 Registered: 02-2000 |
One discrepency that has bugged me is the statement that John the Baptist is Elijah (reincarnated) in TJ ch. 11, lines 18,19, and 24. Clint, Its a TJ translation error it should read Elisha. What edtion of the TJ are you reading from. My Website | ||
Michael_d Member Post Number: 123 Registered: 03-2003 |
Clint, Are you familiar with the works of Bart Ehrman, biblical scholar and author of “Misquoting Jesus”? Here’s an excerpt from a review. Scholar Bart Ehrman's new book explores how scribes -- through both omission and intention -- changed the Bible. Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why is the result of years of reading the texts in their original languages. Ehrman says the modern Bible was shaped by mistakes and intentional alterations that were made by early scribes who copied the texts. In the introduction to Misquoting Jesus, Ehrman writes that when he came to understand this process 30 years ago, it shifted his way of thinking about the Bible. He had been raised as an Evangelical Christian. If you’re interested, here’s a link to his C.V.: http://www.unc.edu/depts/rel_stud/faculty/Ehrman1.html and here’s a link to an audio interview with him about his book on NPR’s Fresh Air: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5052156 | ||
68tibbs Member Post Number: 6 Registered: 07-2006 |
Norm, I am reading from the 1992 edition, Wilf Flower Press. The German text has "Elia" and this is consistent with the transcription of the name listed in the alleged burned fragment in Stevens' Message, vol 4, pages 16-17. Is Elia incorrect in the German text? In the German Old Testament, Elia is Elijah and Elisa is Elisha (see Kings 19:19). If the Aramaic TJ is suppose to read Elisha, then the German text should be Elisa, not Elia. But if this is the case, then what about the fragment showing the lineage from Elia (not Elisa) to Billi? thanks, clint | ||
Norm Member Post Number: 928 Registered: 02-2000 |
Clint, The 1992 version is incorrect. I can't answer you because I don't have a current copy of the TJ. I gave it away. But maybe some one else can look it up in the corrected version. There's even a newer version coming out that is hopefully the final corrected version. My Website | ||
68tibbs Member Post Number: 7 Registered: 07-2006 |
Norm, I realize now that the fragment showing the lineage has no significance for the Elia/Elisa mistake for John the Baptist in the TJ. Sorry. Michael, yes, I have read Bart Ehrman's book, Misquoting Jesus, and much of what he says is correct. I did texual ciriticism in grad school, both with the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible and the Greek text of the New Testament. Ehrman wrote an equally good but more academic book entitled The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture. Another good book in this field is Bruce Metzger's The Text of the New Testament (Ehrman was one of Metzger's last studenst at Princeton). Yes, Ehrman states that he started out as a bleeding-heart evangelical at Moody Bible College and then to Wheaton College. But his experiences at Princeton changed that, and now he considers himself an agnostic with no belief in an afterlife (I read an interview with him on www.washingtonpost.com to this effect). Textual criticism is a laborsome task, but it does uncover texts that contain alternative readings for the same verse of a given chapter in the bible. Textual criticism attempts to best determine which reading is "original", or damn near close to it. You have to remove your theologically-colored glasses, put Athanasius and Augustine aside, and read the texts in their historical miliue and establish the best reading of a text; and this requires KNOWING the languages inside and out. In Hebrew, sometimes it is a matter of the difference in vocalization with the same consonants. Grammer is everything. Unfortunately, not everybody can go to grad school and take Greek and Hebrew. But it does help when confronting such things as the TJ and the claims that it makes (in the German, at least!). We can be thankful that we have such access to study these texts. Demonstrating that the New Testament texts were copied, copied, miscopied, etc., does not, however, lend immediate credence to the TJ. It does demonstrate the vicissitudes of written matter, whether it be "sacred" or profane literature. Yhwh made this same complaint through Jeremiah. See Jeremiah 8:8! And all of the ancient Greek literature that has come down to us, Plato, Aristotle, etc., has suffered the same fate as the Old and New Testaments. Thus, the bible did not fall out of heaven. BUT, despite its textual problems, it is one of the very few texts that we have for ascertaining the way in which humanity dealt with communicating with an extra-terrestrial reality or world, i.e., heaven(s). The bible is cluttered with experiences that are nowadays called out-of-body experiences. And despite popular and academic opinion, "reincarnation" is not unique to eastern religious thought. It is found in both the Old and New Testaments. See Psalm 30:3, Isaiah 49:1,5, Jeremiah 1:5, Galatians 1:11-17, John 1:6, 9:1-3, Mark 6:14-16, 8:27-28, 9:49-50, Luke 9:18-20, Matthew 11:15, Revelation 3:12. See also Reincarnation in Judaism: The Journey of the Soul, by Dovber Pinson. Thus, we don't necessarily have to choose between resurrection or reincarnation. Resurrection is the process of the spirit's various (re)incarnations in order to "raise" (resurrect) itself from "the dead" (spiritually and knowledgably speaking) to "the living" (the spiritually awake, whether here on earth or the beyond). Physical bodies do not "rise" and enter heaven, contrary to Christian doctrine. See Ecclisiastes 12:7, 1 Corinthians 15:50, 2 Corinthians 5:4,8, Philippians 1:23-24, 2 Peter 1:14. Reincarnation is something that the canonical New Testament shares with the TJ. Unfortunately, contemporary Christianity is used as a measuring rod by many for what the New Testament says and means. But the bible that sits on Granny's coffee table is just as "heretical" as is the TJ, if only Christians of today really understood some of the sayings in the bible and didn't read it the way they were raised to read it in the traditional sense. And, ofcourse, another problem is the fact that biblical texts can be just plain pithy! It is very difficult to get meaning out of texts that were written at a much different time for a much different audience and in languages that most people do not have access to, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Nevertheless, meaning can be had from it. Sometimes, parallel English bibles are a good beginning for those who do not know Hebrew and Greek but want to see how different English versions might render the same Greek text. Any proper study of a text such as the TJ will require a knowledge of the biblical languages as well as the different religions of that time, the debates in early Christian literature, what was deemed "heretical", by whom and why, and a good grounding in early Jewish and Christian texts. Alas, the proposed Aramaic text of the TJ no longer exists. And that is a problem, to say the least. Any so-called scientific study of a text requires, at least, that one have access to the text in its original language. Deardorff's book does begin to pave the way, but until an Aramaic text of the TJ surfaces, then the German will remain a poor substitute (some of the German text does not seem to reflect Aramaic, yet there do exist some Semiticisms, e.g., "he answered and said." But does this demonstrate the existence of the Aramaic TJ?). There is so much more to be said, but that would take too much space in this forum. Maybe another time. Clint | ||
Jim Member Post Number: 66 Registered: 07-2003 |
Hello Clint, Let me comment on one piece of your message, where you mentioned spots in the NT where reincarnation is mentioned: "Galatians 1:11-17, John 1:6, 9:1-3, Mark 6:14-16, 8:27-28, 9:49-50, Luke 9:18-20, Matthew 11:15, Revelation 3:12." Actually, it's slimmer pickings than the above might lead one to think. To start with the Gospels, in Mk 6:14 or Mt 14:1-2, the implication is that perhaps John the Baptist, after decapitation, was raised from the dead and became "Jesus." This seems to represent some sort of idea of "possession," not reincarnation. With Mk 8:27-28, Mt 16:13-14 and Lk 9:18-19, it indeed indicates that some people had reincarnation in mind, but it was nothing that the Gospel writers wanted to convey as authoritative, as they elsewhere put definite words of resurrection into "Jesus"s mouth. Regarding Mk 9:49-50, extracted from the Sermon on the Mount, even scholars can't agree on its meaning (being salted with fire, having salt in yourself...). Regarding Mt 11:14, the Jewish interpretation of Elijah coming again was that he could "translate" back down from heaven whenever he or God wanted, since he had gone up to heaven in a whirlwind. The thought seems to be that he had translated into the body of John the Baptist and could somehow (don't ask me how) translate back onto earth again some day. The TJ, of course, from which the writer of Matthew obtained that and many other of his verses, tells it as it is and was. Re Galatians 1:11-17, the Greek text has the meaning that "but when the one who separated me from the womb of my mother was pleased...", which then yield various bible interpretations. I'd better end here, as the Forum probably isn't the place for discussion of such details. Jim deardorj@proaxis.com | ||
Kingman Member Post Number: 128 Registered: 07-2004 |
Hi Clint, I appreciate the depth and clarity your writing creates for my learning of the TJ. With the perspective and knowledge base of your learnings, as well as your opinions, you have helped renew support of my some-what erratic research in religious history I engage in. In short, welcome to figu. a friend in america Shawn | ||
68tibbs Member Post Number: 8 Registered: 07-2006 |
Jim, Yes, you are so correct that evidence for reincarnation in the canonical New Testament is very slim indeed. But the idea of "being raised from the dead" was not in reference to a physical death, the likes of which we see in Lazarus (who was probably not 'all of the way' physically dead, but in possible near-death suspension, i.e., the "silver chord" was not yet broken, see Ecclesiastes 12:6-7). If man dies but once and then is raised, then, by that logic, Lazarus should be walking the earth today. "Dead" in both the Old and New Testament almost always refers to something other than physical death. Biblically speaking, at least, "the dead" are those who were thought to be, in some form or fashion, severed from God, either in this life or in the life hereafter in the Beyond. See Ecclesiastes 9:3,10, Hebrews 2:14 where "the power of death" is "the devil," and 1 Timothy 5:6 are but a few examples of this usage of "dead" or "death." A "resurrection from the dead" implied possible incarnations to gradually rid the soul/spirit of its ignorance and vice in order to achieve a higher spiritual status. So, arguably, reincarnation is implied in other texts than the ones I mentioned earlier; these texts refer to "resurrection from the dead." In the Greek "the dead" is plural, indicating "those who are dead, yet are still existing, nonetheless," and not to the "state of physical death." Being "among the dead" meant that one was, indeed, among sentient persons and beings, whether here on earth or in the beyond, but these beings lacked conviction in God and a spiritaul lifestyle; at least, that is what one can safely surmise from the canonical Old and New Testament texts. See Tobit 5:10, 1 Timothy 5:6, 1 Peter 3:19-20, Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 4:9. The apsotles, apparently, had a hard time understanding what "resurrction from the dead" actually meant. See Mark 9:10,31-32. For physical death, the separation of the spirit from the physical body, see Acts 5:5-10, 7:59, 2 Peter 1:14, Philippians 1:22-23, and James 2:26. It is necessary to have a clear understanding of the differences in the usage of "dead" and "death" in the bible before deciding whether one needs to choose resurrection over reincarnation. The contemporary Christian understand of resurrection from the dead, i.e., being raised physically back to physical life (and apparently, this includes those whose bones are scattered across the globe!), should not be the underlying meaning of "resurrection" in choosing between it and reincarnation. This is, unforntuanetly, one of the problems in Christian theology that creates the (unnecessary) choice between resurrection and reincarnation among New Agers and the like. In the writings of Jerome (I can't remember where), Jerome speaks of a secret teaching among Christians that was not divulged to the masses that had to do with reincarnation (no wonder! Again, see Mark 9:10,31-32). Origen also believed in the idea that the soul/spirit was purified through repeated incarnations on the earth. See De Principiis (The Principals) 1.6.3. Well, I know this is not directly about the TJ, per se, but I just wanted to respond in some fashion, Jim. Thanks. Clint | ||
68tibbs Member Post Number: 9 Registered: 07-2006 |
Jim, Here are other possible references to reincarnation in the canonical New Testament. The Nicodemus meeting with Jesus in John 3:3 where the Greek phrase gennethee anothen, "born from above" or "born again," meant just that, a literal physical rebirth and not, as in contemporary Christianity, "turning over a new leaf by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior." The translation "born from above" admits of a possible subsequent incarnation from a higher realm than Earth, a spirit realm, possibly. In Titus 3:5 a man is made fit for heaven "by the washing of regeneration." Here, the word paliggenesia means "regeneration" or "rebirth." It is made up of the the adverb palin, "again," "once more," "anew," "back (in the sense of 'go back', 'return') and the verb ginomai, "to be." So literally, it means "to be again," i.e., "to exist again." This term was already used by such authors as Pythagoras and Plato in references to the transmigration of the soul. In Titus 3:5, the phrase "by washing of rebirth" is meant to convey repeated life experiences on Earth until the lessons are learned and the spirit is purified and made fit to enter the higher spiritual realms. This term is also found in Matthew 19:28 in context of those who enter "the new world," i.e., "heaven," do so through paliggenisia, "rebirth." Some English versions, the RSV for instance, do not translate this word. Sorry for any typos! Clint | ||
Jim Member Post Number: 67 Registered: 07-2003 |
Hi Clint, To make this discussion relevant to the TJ, we should probably be discussing these topics within the Gospel of Matthew, and then discussing the evidence for its writer to have gotten the basics for his gospel writings from the TJ. A point I should have emphasized is that the writer of Matthew firmly believed in resurrection; he didn't have any secret agenda of slippng in hints of reincarnation into his gospel. What few hints of reincarnation there are, there, are just left over from his not having edited them 100% completely out from the TJ when using the TJ's text. You mentioned Mt 19:28 in which its Greek version uses the word paliggenisia, which primarily means "regeneration", "renewal." The writer of Matthew certainly meant it in that connotation, when, after the End Times, those who would be resurrected and back in their former bodies would be in heaven along with those sitting on thrones alongside "Jesus." He didn't have reincarnation in mind; all that the TJ has on reincarnation was fairly carefully avoided by the writer of Matthew. Jim | ||
68tibbs Member Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2006 |
Jim The German word Wiedergeburt, "rebirth," (literally, "again birth"), that appears in chapter 23 of the TJ, line 12 (by the way Jim, who was resposible for dividing the Aramaic text into chapter and verse number?) is closely related, in meaning at least, to the Greek paliggenisia. But an Aramaic equivalent, underlying the German translation, is difficult to come by. Forms of the verb hayah, "to be," do not occur in the sense "to be again." The verbal root would indicate repetitive "to bes" instead of making hayah into a substantive and adding a prefix form of "again" (which I don't think occurs with the verb hayah). The earliest ideas of being incarnated into another earthly life go back to the Old Testament passages that refer to being "raised out of Sheol" or "out of the Pit," or "out of the netherworld," implying a previous existence that led one to the netherworld with a chance to be raised again out of the netherworld. The TJ's reference here to the Sadducees "who did not believe in rebirth" recalls Acts 23:8 where the term anastasin, a participle meaning "those who are raised," is translated as "resurrection." In my two-cents worth opinion, this term did not, in any way, refer to the contemporary Christian doctrine "resurrection of the physically dead," supposedly in imitation of Jesus leaving his tomb (which, if Jesus is "the first-born of the dead" as he is called in Colossians, contradicts the earlier "raising" of others such as the daughter of Jarius and Lazarus, and the spurious material in Matthew 27:52, among others). Resurrection of the dead is not resurrection of the flesh, not in the 1st century, and this applies to the Gospels, too. The term anastasin simply means to "rise up" and can have the figurative meaning of "cause to appear" or "be born." I am sure people back then, of humble means and intellectual capacity, may have misunderstood "resurrection" to mean dead bodies rising out of their graves, as they misunderstand it today (Ezekiel 37:1-14, The Vision of the Dry Bones, was, obviously, not meant to be taken literally to apply to any context of resurrection from the dead). My point is that, even staying within the gospel of Matthew, we do not have to choose between resurrection and reincarnation, IF we understand resurrection in its "original" (I dare say) context and meaning, i.e., the raising up of those who are "spiritually dead." I don't think reincarnation would have been as heretical back then as it is today among Christians who have a discouragingly wrong-headed theology about spiritual matters, life after death, etc. I think that anastasis, "those who rise up," incorporates within its underlying meaning that which paliggenisia denotes. Jesus' appearance after his crucifixion has caused a host of debates ever since it occurred some 2,000 years ago. Crucifixion, though, was not meant to be a survivable event. You were meant to be killed, and I can't recall any record of one who survived crucifixion in those days. Thus, his appearance has been deemed "a miracle," which it was not, because he was never in the tomb--his dead body was, but he, as a spirit (his and our true selves) was elsewhere. I know the TJ tells a different story, an intriguing one to say the least. Clint | ||
Jim Member Post Number: 68 Registered: 07-2003 |
Hi Clint, Let me comment on your "Resurrection of the dead is not resurrection of the flesh, not in the 1st century, and this applies to the Gospels, too. The term anastasin simply means to "rise up" and can have the figurative meaning of "cause to appear" or "be born." The Greek anastasin indeed just means to "rise up" "or stand up", so its obvious meaning is and was just that. "Jesus" rose up from the tomb after those three (or so) days and nights, and was later seen in the same body he had had before, with crucifixion wounds still evident. So this could be explained by "resuscitation" or "revival" from a nearly clinically dead state, as well as supernaturally through "resurrection." The Greek word could include either meaning, but not, IMO, rebirth or reincarnation. "Jesus" was not seen following the crucifixion as a fetus or newly-born, as reincarnation would demand. In the Gospels, their meaning of resurrection was what their writers thought had happened to "Jesus", which was the view of resurrection promulgated by Paul decades earlier. Paul evidently shared the general Pharisaic view of resurrection -- of them dry bones getting together and being clad in flesh at the Final Day of General Resurrection (I've forgotten right now what the theological term for this is.) Regarding survival of crucifixions, there's the well known case reported by Josephus where he and his friends got permission to take down three persons they recognized from crosses, after a battle in which the captured Jews were crucified. Two of these died, one survived. If you wish, email me for details. Jim | ||
Michael Member Post Number: 523 Registered: 10-2000 |
The following is in the introduction, by Billy Meier, to "Prophecies from 'Talmud Jmmanuel'", copyrights 1982/1996, which is a collection of prophecies from various contacts and the TJ itself. It is VERY important at this time that people read this lengthy introduction to really understand how this information is acquired and what it is intended to provide for humanity. I will be making available selected sections and excerpts from this work. MH .......................................................................................................................................................................... The contents of this book are of prophetic and predictive nature, however, it is not (with few exceptions) the work of myself and therefore not the work of my own ability. I only occupy the role of mediating prophet, making available to Man in responsible manner the conversation explanations revealed to me or the symbol-pictures transmitted to me in Spirit-telepathy form, in that I translate the symbol-pictures into words, formed according to the understanding and grasping of knowing and recognizing people of Earth, who are able to extract and interpret these values. Needing to be explained to you regarding this, dear readers is this: The prophecies, probability calculations and predictions are given to me, on the one hand, by extraterrestrial human beings from planets and universes unknown to Earth- and SOL- systems but, on the other hand, from higher planes of Spirit. Therefore, as a rule, the prophecies and predictions are not the product of my own ability as a seer, wherefore I only pass on the transmitted facts conveyed to me. The products of my own predictive ability are based on exact calculations, of which, however, I do not make extensive use, because the transmissions of the predictions and prophecies from higher Spirit planes and extraterrestrial humans, who know the future, are much more far reaching and precise. The transmissions from high Spirit planes and from extraterrestrials, at any given time, take place at irregular intervals. In addition, these transmissions are often partial and fragmented, so that only in total context they make sense, wherefore it is my obligation to establish the connection and create a whole, however, according and ever true to the transmissions, as I would not be allowed to add or subtract any one incorrect word. The symbol-pictures, by which the transmissions to me from high Spirit planes take place, are the language of Spirit, and this language I have to clothe into justifiable word values of the terrestrial understanding of language. The symbol-pictures of the Spirit language do not consist of traditional picture forms, as these usually are seen by true seers. The seers known to Earth Man (if it truly concerns such), do not master the symbol-language of Spirit, wherefore it is impossible for them to receive transmissions from other planes. So their seer-predictions are ever the product of their own inner powers, which make the future visible to them. It would be useless for anyone to ask me for explanations, if any matters of the probability calculations, prophecies or predictions are not understood. Although I know the value of their interpretation, but it has been imposed upon me to be silent, if something is not understood, because this is ordered into the laws of life, which say regarding this, that prophecies and predictions are not allowed to be explained if these are not understood. This because only the one human being, who can bear and handle the truth, can also decipher the truth himself, when it is presented to him in coded form. This therefore always has to be kept in mind, wherefore in the lack of understanding of certain prophetic passages no one should imagine, that I in a certain lack of understanding would tell him the truth quite openly, because he believes that he could very well handle this. Such an understanding of things would truly not be right, because this understanding would only be imagined, which also is rooted in the lack of knowledge and understanding of things as a whole, wherefore the strength of understanding is also missing; as also the strength to bear the truth; because as the stomach can only work on digestible food, but not on indigestible and poisonous, which may cause death, so also the mind can only take in and absorb the digestible, otherwise it would be overloaded, would fall victim to a disturbed mind or insanity, would resort to death or cause catastrophes. Therefore, all are asked for the required understanding, to not pressure me with questions for exact or approximate points in time, or the exact facts of the prophesied and predicted events of the future, because I am not permitted to further express myself in these matters. It is quite possible for me to calculate with extreme precision certain facts of the future for people etc., as also for example the death of a person. This is known to many, as also the fact, that I can delve into past lives. For this reason many people approach me, begging that I should explore this or that. If it concerns acceptable matters, I am always gladly willing to take such steps, if this is justifiable and benefits the person. Should people, therefore, be interested in such explorations of the past or future, they may in confidence contact me, however, always only in person, because I do not undertake anything of this sort in writing or by telephone. A detailed conversation is of great importance after which is also revealed, whether an exploration of the discussed facts is advisable or not. On the other hand, such investigations as a rule are also very time-consuming and in addition connected to things, which to certain people, due to false thinking are unpleasant or ever shocking, wherefore as a rule it always is better to absolutely leave these matters alone. Regarding prophecies and predictions, the following still needs to be explained: Predictions concern as a form of foretelling the future, which is established as such, that extremely extensive kabbalistic calculations lead to very exact results, or that via travels into the future of different types, the future will be explored. A process which can occur technically or via travels in consciousness. Certain forms of future visions are also of this category. Through this is clearly discernible that predictions occur with absolute certainty and are inevitable, without the possibility that a change or avoidance would still be possible, because due to visioning the future, the event will be seen, which actually and inevitably will occur at a future point in time. Predictions are based on logical consequences of already firmly established facts, so that from their source and development a very exact effect has to result. However, it is different in the case of prophecies, which as a rule only have a warning function and only show the result of a matter, which would result of certain facts, if no change in time would be affected. But if a change is not affected, then the prophecy becomes a prediction, which unhesitatingly has to occur. Needing to be considered also is that prophetic expressions and announcements are changeable according to the measure of conduct of Man. Therefore, no certainty exists that a prophetic event must actually happen in the future, if it is changed for the better in positive evolutionary form. But this evolutionary process has to take place in the thinking and actions of Man according to lawful normal issues of life, without any exact previous knowledge of the approaching occurrences, wherefore the prophetic announcement of an event represents only a possibility of the information and at the same time a warning. Every life form has to walk its way upward, evolving based on perception, recognition, knowledge and experiences. Therefore all and everything first has to be gained by work, before it can bear fruit. This is the reason why prophecies or their time of fulfillment are never allowed to be presented in clear text, because otherwise certain evolutionary steps would simply be skipped by which gaps in evolution would be created, and on the other hand, because exact prophetic data and time indications could lead to fear and panic. Furthermore, prophecies may not be given in detailed clear form, because due to knowledge of certain facts violent destructions and catastrophes could be unleashed - out of fear, hatred, envy etc. Certain prophetic values, therefore, must necessarily always be suppressed, so that only a few understanding ones would be able to decipher these and would be able to truthfully understand and bear everything. Many think themselves quite wise, thinking to have deciphered old prophecies, but many of these are caught in the lack of knowledge and in error teachings, so they found the wrong codes, but which they consider as correct. But rude will be their awakening, or the awakening of those, who believe in the false interpretations. Unexpectedly, however, many have come quite close to the truth, even dangerously close in their lack of understanding and in their irresponsibility. And due to their offense the world, in the future, will be trembling in fear, because they revealed to mankind of this Earth the horrors closely to a clear text, so they will be slandered due to their stupidity, will be persecuted and killed, where one may get hold of them. Truly, the Third World War encompassing the Earth was averted between 1955 and 1989, but already it again glimmers in its beginning and therefore makes the being of the world fearful. It is not the prophecy, which will cause the blaze of the Third World War, but Man in his power- and religion mania. But Man still has time in the year of 1996 to refrain from the doings of his mania, so that the prophecy remains only such, without being fulfilled. But will Man do this? Everything changes due to the thinking process and due to action, and as Man of this Earth leaves his path of destruction, he will survive thousands of years of peace, and nip the threatening Third World War in the bud. But if Man does not change himself into a balance, the positive-neutral, in true honesty and universal love and all-encompassing harmony, truly, then the terror of the prophecy will come in cruel and long-lasting manner. This has been well averted since the year 1989, due to mighty universal peace-powers, meaning also the total atomic destruction of the Earth globe, but averted is not the danger of the Third World War, which already glimmers again in its bud, stirred up by religious fanatics. And if this war actually does occur, then this will happen mightily and unexpectedly, when Man of this Earth still lies down peacefully to sleep in the evening, to be torn from his peaceful slumber by war cries: And it will be so if he does not presently change his mind for the good, and for the way of Spirit and in love, peace and harmony. And I say unto you, Man of Earth, you who walk on the path of destruction and of death: If you do not change in a reasonable period of time, you will fall into damnation, which is horror, terror and bestial death. As you continue to walk on the path of destruction, the sword of annihilation will catch up with you, which you yourself have forged, and hand which you hand over into the murderous hands of those, which will be born out of your ranks as Anti-Logos, who will destroy all knowledge and truth, and who will swing themselves aloft to the height of their insanity, to let themselves be called redeemer, after which they call themselves gods, in order to fall victim to the insanity and to maintain to be Creation Itself. You still have a short time for reflection to turn back, Man of this Earth, but already your time is limited, because deep underground already glimmers death, which you provoke with your doings. But sufficient time is still given you to change, so you can still change everything toward the good, through which the glimmering mud of evil is stifled and crumbles into ashes. Listen, Man of this world, quite often this has already been proclaimed to you - for thousands of years. But you have disregarded and cursed the prophecy, have slandered and laughed about it. But heed it NOW, because it is the time of the great change, when you still have a last chance. But if you do not use it, your descendants will curse you into the fourth millennium of your time count and long beyond that. If you continue to wrangle against and slander Creation, man of this world, then are announced to you terrible events for over two thousand years. Events, however, for which you carry the blame, due to your error teachings and your false doings in lack of consciousness. To me the years of terror are partially known, which you conjure up, if you do not retreat from the path of destruction, but it does not lie in my competence, to list the years in their value. Only in a few matters has this been allowed me, because the time thus requires it. Man of this world, it is not the judgment of a creator which befalls you, as proclaimed in flowery religious cult phrases long ago, but it is the judgment of your own doings and thinking, which you conjure up with mighty power, as you have done thus far, and burdened your world with war, misery, need and infirmity and with over-population. This is the time of renewal demanding accountability from you in the kingdom of spirit and of a reality consciousness, as well as in the reason and intellect thereof, against which you live in lust, wickedness and greed, through which you create misery and need and a boundless desire for material things only. Thereby all love dies for you and the respect for all things, the sense for peace and harmony. And the greed for power and passion and viciousness rises unbounded, bloodthirstiness overtakes you and the respect for life withdraws and flees, so you degenerate from barbarian to beast, will breed creatures of evil, who fight against all truth, knowledge, wisdom, peace, you will kill harmony and love, and persecute and murder all those, who have not fallen prey to their materialistic insanity. You yourself, Man of this world, breed and stir up your own judgment through your insanity, through your false actions and wrong thinking. Your over-population descendants you will force into untruth, so they become beasts in human form and who are against all that is good. The untruth increases, the lack of knowledge becomes the Anti-Logos, which embodies as human being and causes evil degenerations. Thus mighty ones appear on the scene, demoralized throughout by the Anti-Logos, marked by bloodthirstiness and power greed, greed for possessions and wickedness. The evil in embodiment of human form, the Anti-Logos, as has been prophesied since times of old: Criminal fundamentalism, over-population, anarchism, despotism, sectarianism, criminality as well as terrorism and all other imaginable evils of every form. The Anti-Logos is the unstable, able to be out-pictured by every human being, who falls for him. It is the no-good, the degenerating, the lack of the spiritual, the damning, the cursing, and the destroying and annihilating, the untruthful, the non-love, the lack of peace and the disharmonic, this all in all is called Anti-Logos; that which is unjust, and unreasonable, that which is illogical and the non-creative. But you, Man of this Earth, you do not understand this truth, because you are driven into confusion by error teachings, allowing yourself to be led astray by religious cults, to hope for the never appearing miracles; hoping for a creative god, who is only a human being, and who shall bring to you the kingdom of Spirit in all Its splendor. Oh, Man of this world, how erringly you go and walk along in your delusion; while seeing you are blind, and while hearing you are dumb, because a creative god does not bring you salvation but you alone through your own consciously correct and responsible action, if you align yourself with truth and free yourself from the Anti-Logos. The kingdom is not with a creative god, but in the Spirit and in the consciousness, in the Spirit, which as part of Creation resides within you and ever walks in harmony with Creation, even if you do not become aware of it, because you do not want to recognize it. You will not find peace in a creative god, because only within yourself you are able to find it, if you align yourself according to the laws of Creation. In religious cult delusion since times of old you speak about an Anti-Christ about the man of evil, and about the beast of evil, about the number of evil - the 666. You are well aware of this evil, namely that it exists, however, again you mislead yourself in religious cult insanity. The evil you call Anti-Christ is in total accord to your erroneous belief of your cult religion. And you do not want to understand, that Anti-Christ and Christ etc. embody the Anti-Logos, created within Man by himself, due to his false doings in not adhering to the creative laws. You do not recognize that the Anti-Logos, which in your error belief you call Anti-Christ is embodied within Man, already has become active in the mighty ones of this world, who bring death and ruin to you and allow the prophecies to become reality, that the Anti-Logos will rule the world and eradicate all Logos, whereby two thirds of mankind will be murdered, when the time of the last Anti-Logos-Powers will roll over the Earth. Yet you still have time to halt this insanity. But hurry, for time is running short, before the epoch of bloody terrors begins, if you do not abandon the path of insanity. Terrible things will be announced to you, if you remain on the path, which you have trod up to now. The Anti-Logos becomes overpowering and a gigantic threat. Mighty ones will arise, ensouled by Anti-Logos, cruel, bestial and bloodthirsty. They will be the Anti-Logos itself, the evil in embodiment, which has been told to you since times of old in prophecies as the 666, which in your error belief you call Anti-Christ. A prophecy does not mean the foretelling of events or occurrences which must happen, but it simply indicates the forecasting of events to be expected, resulting from exactly determined previous thought- and action-processes or other previous events. Therefore this means, that a prophecy must not happen with absolute certainty, if the previous thought- and action-processes or other events, from which the prophecy is created in logical conclusion, are revised by new, logical thought- and action-processes or other events are changed in a manner so that the event to be expected will be influenced to a great extent, meaning that a change for the better will be caused and brought into effect. Therefore, a prophecy, or prophecies in general, are only tied to an absolute occurrence of the forecast logical predictions, when nothing takes place to change the processes. Explained in other words, it means that a prophecy must NOT occur and must not fulfill itself, if opposing processes against the calculated even take place, which logically have to cause a different effect. The conclusion thereof is, that prophecies do not represent an unchangeable determination, but are equal in meaning to an effect of a certain cause. As a cause logically has to produce a certain effect, the cause is valid, if it is predicted as so-called prophecy, which again does not mean anything else, than that it refers to a prediction of an occurrence or event to be expected, which must take place as effect of a cause. Therefore, only cause and effect are decisive in a prophecy to be given or having been given which therefore excludes the erroneous assumption, that everything has been predetermined since ages of old by a power set over Man. Therefore, it is now clearly recognizable, that EVERY prophecy presented to mankind of Earth corresponds to an effect of a cause, which by him, Earth Man himself, has been created, if the cause and effect were based on his thought- and action-processes. Predictions regarding cosmic events etc., naturally do not fall into this category, because cosmic and universal powers are totally independent of Earth Man in their sphere of action. If for example, a prophecy goes forth, that at a certain point in time an event of cosmic nature will appear, this then corresponds to a cosmic prediction, which is based on totally different powers and laws, than the effects of causes called forth by human thought- and action-processes. Unfortunately, regarding a prophecy, Man, as a rule, understands something totally false, especially based on religious matter, because prophecies usually are considered to be determinations of supernatural or godly powers. But what is to be understood under the term, prophecy in truth? Quite simply: Prophecy means nothing else but an announcement. Thus in the sense of the announced prophecy, it is simply an announcement of an event or occurrence to be expected. This also explains right away that a prophet does not embody anything else that an announcer of knowledge, a teaching, or of preliminary announcements of events or occurrences to be expected. But what purpose do prophecies have? This question also is easily explained: The meaning of a given prophecy lies in a warning. Thus via a prophecy a warning is uttered about a happening or occurrence to be expected for the purpose that the recipient of the prophecy (as a rule Man of Earth) prepares himself for the coming events and occurrences as best as possible and try to influence the happenings and occurrences of negative nature to be expected positively, whereby the negative events having to occur change to a not having to occur, and therewith the purpose of the prophecy is achieved. The prophecy, the warning, therefore corresponds also to a teaching and an advice, to which the recipient is obligated to comply. Therefore, as prophecies contain a warning, a teaching and an advice, quite logically they only announce things of a negative nature, because nothing would be more paradox than a prophecy of positive a nature, which the recipient would try to influence negatively. This explains, why prophecies given, without exception, contain negative previous announcements of any causalities, because only the negative in exaggerated form needs a change to the normal-positive, in order to allow a balance to be created thereof. Billy Meier Michael Horn | ||
Miraj_raha Member Post Number: 13 Registered: 09-2006 |
http://www.atmajyoti.org/pdfs/christ_of_india.pdf perhaps this article will throw some new light on the "Talmud of Jmmanuel." |
