| Author |
Message |
   
J_rod7
Member
Post Number: 241
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 02:19 pm: | 
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Hello PJ,
Sorry, but >"he will only accept as true that which he can touch with his hands and that he can see with his eyes and that he can hear with his ears."< is not science in the truest sense, but only the purely false material way.
True science is a metaphysical art by which one seeks beyond what can be seen, hears the voice of intuition which speaks from the spirit, knows that wisdom is beyond the touch.
Salome
Someone Shared Their LOVE Today. Was It YOU?
J_rod7
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Pauljanus
Member
Post Number: 25
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 03:00 pm: |
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Hello all,
I don't know about you, but if I was in a trial I wouldn't like to be sentenced to death because the police's medium has had the "intuition" that I am the culprit.
Nor I would like to undergo painful surgery because the doctor has had the "intuition" that I have a condition.
The intuition is a crucial element in the scientific process, but it only helps in developing a theory. After that, the theory must be tested, and everybody must be able to reproduce the experiment and check the results with their senses.
If in a far future we'll all grow a sixth sense that everybody will have since birth and consider reliable as the sight or the hearing are, we'll be able to use it as a validation tool, just as we use our eyes to see that the Earth is round or the objects fall under gravity.
And even in that case, the perception through that sense will have to be confirmed by multiple witnesses to be considered as proof.
But till then, I'm afraid we can only trust our five senses and our logical reasoning capabilities.
Peace
--PJ |
Indi
Member
Post Number: 219
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 12:04 am: |
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my thoughts on this are that even the five senses are not reliable, as the senses in themselves do not interpret -- it is the brain that interprets what the senses pick up.
What filters are in place, that is, what programming is in the subconscious, will determine how one interprets this data from the senses.
Granted, there are accepted standards in science, but even science is not without its flaws and problems with the scientific method. That is not really a topic for this board though, but a worthy one even so.
Rather than scientific method to 'prove' whether something is true or not, it might be more useful to use the 'logical method' instead. Utilizing this method, as i suppose in the scientific method, requires that the premises that things are based on be considered true, because if not, then any conclusions formed therefrom, will not be valid, no matter how valid they 'appear or sound'.
I have read hundreds and hundreds of research papers, and when I did my own thesis, realized the difficulties even more, to make a lot of headway with data that is not easily quantifiable - eg., in the field of consciousness -- (my theseis was trying to show that we can affect our bloodflow to our extremeties by hypnotic suggestion - the results of which were in the very least dependent upon the suggestibility of the test subjects and the myriads of variables that can affect that at the time of testing etc.....)
Intuition is more often likely to be as Rod mentioned, the inspiration that leads to amazing discoveries. Don't write it off just yet! And, also, there is not much use in using the above examples of use of intuition, as that is as just mentioned, not where the real use of this 'sense' is put into action.
Intuition is the 'idea' and it is an 'idea', a 'thought' that is described in the material being discussed here, as being the origin of our universe. So, not a thing to be sneezed at!
Robjna |
Adysor
Member
Post Number: 63
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 09:50 am: |
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Pauljanus,
I don't think Billy Meier meant that people should not use their 5 physical senses.....People should rely on them but not on them only....
You say "I don't know about you, but if I was in a trial I wouldn't like to be sentenced to death because the police's medium has had the "intuition" that I am the culprit"
The same I could say to you: would I like to be sentenced to death even though I am not supposed to, just because it "appears" that I am guilty?
Or a true criminal would avoid prison or sentence to death just because, in front of the judges, it only "appears", given the physical proof found, that he is not guilty?
So apart of using the 5 sense, there are other things to take into consideration before judging something...
As it is said "Things aren't always what they seem to be"
Adrian.
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J_rod7
Member
Post Number: 242
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 02:03 pm: |
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Hello PJ,
Knowledge combined with Experience leads to Wisdom.
Jimi Hendrix expressed this in a song:
"Love IS a beautiful experience. Have you ever been experienced?"
I can only suggest that you should expand yourself in both Knowledge AND Experience.
Salome
Someone Shared Their LOVE Today. Was It YOU?
J_rod7
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Kerba
New member
Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 02:50 pm: |
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hello im a newbie here.
english is not my native lang so i hope my writing makes sense.
my best friends admiration to billy brought me here. and im very much intrigued with his work and teachings.
but im kinda sceptic about childish photos of UFO-s. all the evidence I've seen doesnt actually prove that they exist. my common sense tells me that we are not alone arround here. so i will stick arround to be here when actual legitimate proof appears.
still there is enough about billy that keeps me listening to his tapes, and searching the internet to learn more about his teachings.
peace:D |
Markc
Member
Post Number: 686
Registered: 06-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2008 - 10:16 pm: |
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Kerba ;
Actual legitimate proof will not appear unless you are able to recognize it .
I'm not really sure of anything I see on television ; is that really our president ?
It's not logical , how could it be ?
It must be fiction that he could still be in office .
How is it that he is really our president ?
I can only assume that he is not , that the whole thing is a hoax .
If the president situation would appear to make more logical sense , therefore presenting actual legitimate proof , then I would probably have no problem in believing it .
Therefore I'm almost certain that the whole presidency must be based on an animation , using film composites of a real person , since I have never met him and only seen photos and films of him .
English is also a second language for me .
At least that's what I'm sayin' .
Mark Campbell
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Kerba
New member
Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2008 - 07:14 am: |
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well i could jump, my gf could take a photo of me in the air. and ill try and convice u that i can fly.
well, i will not do such a thing. and i will not be telling u what should u belive. best friend of mine really thinks that "evidence" shown is enough. and he is 100% sure in all claims that contact with the "P" people really ocurred.
im not a religious person, and for the same reason i dont belive in the "allmighty" i refuse to belive in the contacts with other civs. i really need more to be convinced. But i dont doubt the extraterrestrial intelligence. call it a hunch.
the "presidency" thing. i dont think about it that much, so much corruption arround the world i really dont care who will be the next president, or who is the current one.
"P" people say that they are trying to help the humanity. well i say that the time to act is now. just talking about it will not make any difference. and ill go back to work the next day, so will u... we will talk some more about this, then again go to work and sleep and so on and on.... nothing will change.
im "fighting" the reallity every on daily basis. and im keeping my right of telling what is and what isnt real.
there just might be something. i feel it could, that and a friend brought me here. so ill keep my eyes open to see what happens.
peace :D |
Markc
Member
Post Number: 687
Registered: 06-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2008 - 03:16 pm: |
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Good enough , Kerba . Thanks for paying attention .
MC
Mark Campbell
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Jpm
Member
Post Number: 56
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Friday, September 12, 2008 - 08:18 am: |
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Kerba,
This mission is the only exception I have found to the rule, "if it's too good to be true, it probably is". The mission is real, and, possibly even for people that have studied it for some time can have doubts because it is so hard to believe sometimes. That's just my perspective, however.
"if central truth was a reality at lowly levels of the human-psyche, evolution would not be possible." - JPM
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Kerba
New member
Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 01:34 pm: |
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i respect your faith.
and the description of "god" as a high level selfaware human does seem as most acceptable explanation to me. because it could really be anyone of us if we could calm our mind enough.
Objectivity is a good thing. I have a good faith about life and its ways, but i like my feet to be on the ground at all times.
peace :D |
Bodhran
New member
Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 02:55 am: |
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Dear FIGU
, I don't consider my self a skeptic by any means,In fact I believe in the validity of the majority of Billy Meier's evidence but something has come to light that I would like opinions on if possible. I have been trying to introduce the subject to my friends and family, I have shown most of them the Silent revolution of truth. My brother in particular who is also a believer in UFO's, was impressed with some of the photographic evidence but when hearing the beamship sound recordings he immediately said it was faked.
Let me explain that he is a sound engineer first of all, he then explained that it was an easily reproduced sound that you could do with two or three tape recorders that were availible in the 70's. He demonstrated the priciple to me with two mobile phones, he called me on my mobile, put his on speaker then when I answered he put mine on speaker then held the two near each other. The resulting sound was uncannily similar to the beamship sounds. He said although the technology was slightly different the principle was the same. Here is the mail he sent me afterwards..
"For the sound effect, you'd need two tape recorders that can record and
have a speaker that plays back what's recording at the same time, or a
tape deck with a mic socket, lots of them had back in the 70's.
Do you remember my old little grey portable cassette player, two of
those would do.
basically the microphone is recording the sound coming from the speaker,
which is sound from the mic, in essence, a loop.
So what you normally get is just straight feedback.
Now if you put two recorders facing each other you're recording the same
thing but then there's a slight delay due to the space between each
recorder, (sound needs air to travel). So now you've two sets of
feedback, but because you're recording the same thing and there's a
physical space between the two, it sounds like a delay.
Think of it like when you put a mirror in front of a mirror.
There'd be a bit of fiddling to do regarding the levels of the
microphone and the playback volume of the speakers, but in a matter of
minutes you'd have that sound. Add more recorders then you more varied
sounds and then record the whole thing from a short distance away.
--------------
In the early 80's only high end cassette decks were actually able to
operate at 20hz-20,000hz, most operated at lower levels than that, they
wouldn't really have gone as low as 20, or as high as 20,000.
That report said there were frequencies at 4hz, even....(and i say that
even though it's impossible for cassette tape deck to capture anything
remotely near 4hz), but even regardless of the tape, everything in your
recording chain would have to be able to function at those frequencies.
Certainly there's mics that can easily capture frequencies above
20,000hz, but expensive ones, I'm not sure what mics would be able to
capture a 4hz frequency, or much below 20hz.
And that type of magnetic tape, rolls off the low end fairly quickly
after about 30hz, i don't know if can pick up anything at 20hz, never
mind 4hz!
I've a good tape deck here, when I've some free time I'll feed it some
sine wavs, so what it can take, I can generate a 4hz freq. I'll record
it onto tape, then digitise it and analyse it."
End Quote.
The last thing I want is for more unfounded misinformed claims to detract from Billy's message but I cannot ignore the fact that he recreated the beamship sounds in one minute with two phones.
Is there information we are missing about the nature of the recordings that would disprove these statements? If so please let me know as I would like to counter his argument myself.
Salome
Tony.
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Indi
Member
Post Number: 238
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 05:23 am: |
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Tony
keep in mind that there were many witnesses, and the sound was heard kilometres away it was so loud
There are many ways to reproduce things, but when you also require all the facts to align, that is where things cannot be reproduced.
Eg., where out in the fields, with no electricity available, can there be a source of noise hidden from everyone's view that were loud enough to be heard for kilometres, and at the same time recorded etc.....
You need to read the complete account of that event, and produce all the facts for it to be an issue.
just some thoughts
Robjna |
Michael
Member
Post Number: 663
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 09:04 am: |
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Tony,
I suggest reading the Report on UFO Sounds at www.theyfly.com.
The other thing is that various skeptics claim to have duplicated the "effect" of Meier's UFO photos, for instance. You say that "he recreated the beamship sounds". Until his sounds can be analyzed, as Meier's were, and shown to contain the same, very complex, layering of different, simultaneously occurring frequencies, it's only a "similar effect".
But I do suggest that he goes ahead and makes the recording and then gets it analyzed to see how well it compares.
We now also have a 26-minute recording of the "Beamship Symphony" available for people who want to really wake their neighborhood up.
Michael Horn
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Bodhran
Member
Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 10:32 am: |
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I understand that Robjna,
but as my brother stated above you can produce a similar sound with nothing other than two or three tape recorders as was present during the event.In theory if you were in a quiet countryside area and produced a feedback loop from tape recorders with the volume up full you might hear it from far off,and he did demonstrate the principle to me as you could try for yourself.
I have read the account of the recordings ,what I was asking for is if anyone can point me to a more detailed analysis of the event itself , what type of tape recorders were used,( I know one Aiwa recorder was used) were any other type of recording instruments used? What was the decibel level of the noise?(I know it says the level increased by 50 decibels and decreased by 40Db but if the level of the noise was only 40Db in the first place then it's feasable that it could have been created by tape recorders.) This type of info can prove or disprove his assumptions.
Bear in mind I'm not a skeptic, I'd like to prove him wrong myself. I don't mind searching for the information if someone can tell me where to look.
Thanks
Salome
Tony.
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Markc
Member
Post Number: 689
Registered: 06-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 03:36 pm: |
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Bodhran ;
If you want to think that , you will be hard pressed to think otherwise .
Michael Horn has technical information at http://www.theyfly.com concerning this . Otherwise , my effort trying to prove that a photo is of an object made of metal or shiny cheese , is only wasted time and energy .
Same thing with the recordings .
This whole mission is not about recordings or photos .
They were used to attract the interest of the kind of people who are seeking to learn ; and yet some won't .
If your brother is a sound engineer and said that it was a fake recording , then , what will we do then ? I guess that ends everything .
But what proof do you have that you have a brother ?
Or that he is not just made of shiny cheese ?
So far your skepticism makes no sense at all , since I am a music producer myself , well acquainted with recording as well as the archaic method you mentioned .
I hope you learn something and pass the arguing stage , and make the best of what's offered here , free of charge .
This type of challenge is typical and suspiciously patterned , as in ; someone has a job to do , and it's always the same office , different day .
Good luck with that .
Mark Campbell
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Marcela
Member
Post Number: 28
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 07:32 pm: |
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Tony:
You are very right in some points; you might be able to reproduce in part the look or the sound of the beam ships with miniature models or tape recorders like your brother said. However, I disagree with your brother in the following. First he reproduced the sound with two mobile phones. Well, the technology has improved greatly and I would like him to reproduce the sound with two tape recorders from the 70’s and then I might believe him. Secondly, I have a friend who is an electronic music DJ and I must say that the siren of the beam sounds like that music. There is a documentary made by American journalists who visited Billy Meier in the 70’s and brought to the USA all the evidence for analysis. At that time experts in sound couldn’t reproduce the sound of the beam ship and they used a total of 12 synthesizers. They analyzed the photographs and Billy took a lie detector as well, which he passed. What I am trying to say and like Michael stated too, the evidence of the veracity of the UFO’s is very diverse and has been analyzed for years. Also, your brother should read the predictions of Billy Meier that proves alone the veracity of the whole story. Because Billy Meier and the Plejarens are not only about the existence of extraterrestrial life but also about the prediction of events that were made 50 years ago and are happening now with accuracy of names, places, events, etc… The proof of the beam ships is not only the sound of beam. The documentary made in the 70’s is on youtube, and of course Michael’s movie must be an update of the whole evidence analysis.
Marcela
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Bodhran
Member
Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 01:32 am: |
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Hi all,
To Markc: Did you read my post properly? I'm not a skeptic, I believe in the validity of Billy Meiers material. All I was asking for was if someone could tell me where to look for more detailed information about the sound recordings.If my brother can't reproduce the sounds the way he says then he's obviously wrong in his assumptions but he can't try if he dosen't have the correct data. And asking me if my brother is ficticious and made of shiny cheese?? What kind of response Is that to a logical question? If anything hurts the Billy Meier case its irrational respones to legitimate questions.I can send you photo's of me and my brother, copies of birth certs, photo's of his studio, I can send you a picture of the whole family if you want! Also I never even mentioned miniature models at all. This only concerns the sounds.
I realise most of you are fed up defending Billy Meier but lots of people are only coming upon his story recently. I myself am a believer but when someone presents me with a question ( especially a member of my family) about the evidence I feel the need to answer it. We are supposed to be leaving the age of belief and entering the age of knowledge, how is .
Salome
Tony.
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Bodhran
Member
Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 01:51 am: |
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Hi all,
To Markc: Did you read my post properly? I'm not a skeptic, I believe in the validity of Billy Meiers material. All I was asking for was if someone could tell me where to look for more detailed information about the sound recordings.If my brother can't reproduce the sounds the way he says then he's obviously wrong in his assumptions but he can't try if he dosen't have the correct data. And asking me if my brother is ficticious and made of shiny cheese?? What kind of response Is that to a logical question? If anything hurts the Billy Meier case its irrational respones to legitimate questions.I can send you photo's of me and my brother, copies of birth certs, photo's of his studio, I can send you a picture of the whole family if you want! Also I never even mentioned miniature models at all. I don't doubt the reality of the beamships at all. This only concerns the sounds. I even think the sounds are real!! And yes I'd like to see him recreate the sounds with two tape recorders from the 70's too.
Michael Horn has done excellent work in telling debunkers to put up or shut up .If I knew the make of the recorders he could have a go.
I realise most of you are fed up defending Billy Meier but lots of people are only coming upon his story recently. I myself am a believer but when someone presents me with a question ( especially a member of my family) about the evidence I feel the need to answer it. We are supposed to be leaving the age of belief and entering the age of knowledge, I am trying to apply that.
Salome
Tony.
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Bodhran
Member
Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 02:16 am: |
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for your reply,
I have read the accounts on theyfly.com it only mentions the make of one of the tape recorders does anyone know the makes of the other two tape recorders Billy used?
Salome
Tony.
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Kingman
Member
Post Number: 390
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 04:29 am: |
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Proof for much of Billy's experiences/knowledge exist already in society, but only in minute amounts of historical artifacts, or in occasional events where witness's cannot offer any explanations regarding unusual circumstances. Skeptics we deal with in ufology deny anything that
adds a positive light towards Billy's experience being true.
A few days ago here, two trains collided head on, killing 25 crew members and passengers. One family, unaware of their father having been involved in the wreck, started receiving several cell phone calls from him that began after the accident happened. When answered, unknown static laden sounds were heard each time. The calls were being made to each family member while the news soon informed them of the train wreck that was carrying their father. Concerned, they called each emergency service involved, as well as all the hospitals that received the wounded. He was not reported to have been located by any responders. Eventually his body was located about one hour after the calls had stopped. The area his body was found had been completely demolished and instant death was considered as the only result possible in this location.
Was it possible that this man's spiritual level gave him enough abilities to access the electronics of his cell phone and connect one last time with loved ones? No one can ever know for sure, but if the event holds true as told, only the power of the spirit would make any sense as an answer.
These type of stories are deserving of skepticism, not the heavily evidenced mission Billy serves for the good of all on Earth. Skepticism should be hard to maintain once a person has researched into the documented evidence which is still being newly produced.
a friend in america
Shawn
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Bodhran
Member
Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 01:23 pm: |
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Dear Moderators,
Is there a reason that my replies to these posts have not been posted?
Salome
Tony.
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Michael
Member
Post Number: 664
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 03:57 pm: |
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Tony,
Your brother claimed to be able to duplicate the sounds. There were 24 in the audible range and 8 in the inaudible range, deduced through a formula, etc.
Have him use an AIWA or similar machine and duplicate the sounds.
Then have him play them outdoors loud enough to be hear for several miles...with no detectable speakers or electrical source.
Simple enough.
In the meantime, contemplate just what it would mean to you if he can't and if the sounds are effectively irreproducible with the available equipment of the time, under the same conditions, etc.
Again, simple enough.
Michael Horn
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