| Author | Message | ||
    Michael Horn |
Hi Phil, Regarding "...an idea is the embodiment of Matter.", wouldn't it be more accurate to say, "Matter is the embodiment of an idea."? Also, regarding the fishes and the loaves, isn't what you are referring to called a "real vision" by the Plejarans? Regards, Michael Horn | ||
Jani Metso and Janette Poikajärvi |
Hello Phil, Where did you get that information about Jmmanuel using that technique you mentioded? (that people just believed they were eating when they really ate nothing.) Regards, Jani | ||
Thomas Hall |
Firstly, Phil, whether Jmmanuel said "faith" or "confidence", the fact still remains that he did tell the people he saw at that time, that they too could perform these feats if they had confidence or faith or whatever, so that question has not been answered. After all, Jmmanuel told Peter, when he had walked on water, that it was Peter's knowledge that gave him the ability until he had doubt. Also, according to FIGU information, when a "real time vision" is caused, the spirit of the affected person still would cause them to be filled(in the case of eating during the vision). In addition, I think you should get Billy's official explanation on the feeding of five thousand, because it is apparent in the Talmud that Jmmanuel did actually multiply the food through the power of his spirit. I don't mean to offend you, but you seem to not be in possession of the facts. Are you an active FIGU member? | ||
Jani Metso and Janette Poikajärvi |
Hello, But if Jmmanuel really used that technique, how can it be that "They all ate and were filled and saved what had been left over, twelve baskets full of morsels." TJ 16:25 (1992 edition) How can there be left overs if they really ate nothing? Regards, Jani | ||
James Roy Mizar |
mabye it was a spiritual "feeding" with a little food, 90% spiritual 10% material?. Speaking from experience of being a big eater, with the growth of the spirit and fasting I have noticed I don't need to eat as much to be satisfied. Salome James | ||
Andrew C. Cossette |
Moderator - For the purpose of this topic area, this is Phil McAiney's Message cont. "...In the example of Jmmanuel feeding the 5,000 with a few fish and pieces of bread, this actually took place. Jmmanuel used the technique of having the mass of people experience a virtual reality where they believed they were eating their fill though they physically ate nothing. Their bodies were nourished just as though it had digested actual food. This technique has also been used on some "contactees" to make them think they were on a ship when they were just in a hypnotic trance at home half-asleep. So it can be used positively or negatively by the user. Phil | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Thomas, and Phil, I recall having read Billy's explanation of this Feeding, which he received from Semjase(??), a couple years ago. It seems to have been an actual multiplication of the loaves and fish (so there could be pieces left over), but a multiplication into virtual loaves and fish. These, however, did supply the people with nourishment for their bodies even though it was some sort of "virtual" nourishment. Naturally, I didn't understand this in terms of anything I can grasp, still don't, and probably shouldn't expect to until our civilization has evolved a few more thousand years. Regarding Vertrauen and trust versus faith, Phil, my German dictionary allows that "faith" can be used, as well as "trust". It can depend upon the context. In the TJ, "trust" seems much better, almost all the time, as "faith" often tends to have the connotation Phil mentioned of being a misplaced faith or faith in a false concept. | ||
Anthea |
As far as my understanding goes, everything in the Universe, seen and unseen is made up of energy; all exists according to it's own vibration - both solid material and spiritual. So, in view of this it would not be too far fetched to assume that, given Jmmanuel's evolution and knowledge, he was able to multiply the loaves and fish with which to feed the people. Considering that modern science is able to clone a perfect sheep using another's DNA I can see how it may have been possible for the exceedingly far advanced Celestial Sons to have such knowledge, which would exceed any knowledge our Scientists possess today in such matters. | ||
Anthony Alagna |
Hello, I too have often wondered how Jmmanuel turned "five loaves of bread and three fishes" into a meal for "five thousand" hungry people. I had assumed from reading in the TJ 1996E 16:24 that when Jmmanuel "spoke some secret words" to accomplish this, he was making contact with his off world teachers. Perhaps the advanced technology of the Celestial Sons allowed for an Earth food replication at the request of Jmmanuel? Might we consider this "virtual" meal as actual food created artificially with some sort of alien technology (maybe something like the Food Replicators on Star Trek TNG), instead of just being an event created in the minds of the people? Regards, Anthony | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Anthony A., that sounds like a plausible solution, if it were a non-spiritual matter. But even so, there would be difficult complications in implementing that. One surmises that the multiplication of the loaves and fish wasn't just into two giant piles that suddenly appeared, one of loaves and one of fish, which the 5000 then filed past a few at a time, each helping himself to some. Instead, I would surmise that as the meagre food was passed around, a little multiplication occurred at each stage of passing it out. Have you wondered, were the baskets multiplied, too, to have twelve baskets of leftovers? | ||
Anthony Alagna |
Hello Jim, Thanks for the response to my above post. However, I would disagree with you that the use of technology to create food for the five thousand people would diminish this event as a non-spiritual matter. Two thousand years ago, it was a major effort for a human being to acquire their daily food requirements. Not like today in our plentiful western civilization, where we spend little time thinking about our next meal, and are usually satisfied to free-up our minds to concentrate on other matters. So when Jmmanuel and the Celestial Sons(?) fed these primitive, poor, probably starving and undernourished, people an alien replicated earth meal(?), might they have been better suited to concentrate on spiritual matters, instead of preoccupying their minds with thoughts of survival? Also, keeping the assembly of five thousand together in the desert, instead of having them split up and go to the villages for food, would enable Jmmanuel to continue his work with them. So the big question I have about this is, what were Jmmanuel's "secret words"? Were these for some sort of communication to the Celestial Sons asking for help? Or did these words help Jmmanuel to invoke his spiritual powers to multiply the food all by himself? Personally, I think that since the Pleiadians of today seem to rely on technology to accomplish miraculous feats, it would seem unlikely that Jmmanuel, a simple man of Earth, would be able to create loaves and fishes out of thin air. But then, there is very much for me to learn regarding the power of the spirit. Best regards, Anthony | ||
Michael Horn |
Hi, ...[Comments shortened -- Applicable under German law.] ...could Jmmanuel have been using his own powers to manifest the physical matter (food)? | ||
James Roy Mizar |
There was also the part where Jmmanuel walked by a fig tree looking for something to eat and it did not have any fruit so he made it whither and die (most likely to become ground sustaining nutrents for seeds) and he was asked how he could make a tree die and the reply was "If you have knowledge with the true power of spirit and trully believe then anything you ask will happen a tree will wither or a mountian will move into the sea" I may not be exactly accurate as I have only read some of the TJ yet it seems to me that Jmmanuel point is that with the power of your knowledge of creation and spirit and that you trully believe in yourself it enables you to do miraculous things and in creations eyes they are creative. Salome James | ||
Anthea |
Hi James Good point. Can you tell us exactly what Chapter and verse you are referring to? | ||
James Roy Mizar |
As I was scanning through the forum material I came apon James W. Deardorff's web page and he/others did a comparison of the bible and the TJ I think it is the 1996 version. TJ 21:11-14 11"Truly, truly, I say to you, if you are knowledgeable and comprehending and embrace wisdom, and if you practice love truthfully and do not doubt, not only will you do such things with blind eyes, but when you say to the fig tree: 'Dry up' it will dry up. Or when you say to a mountain: 'Lift yourself up and throw yourself into the sea,' it will come to pass. 12Be knowledgeable in truth and wisdom, so that your spirit and your consciousness will become powerful. 13And when you are knowledgeable and live in the truth of wisdom, your spirit and your consciousness will be filled with infinite power. 14Then everything you command or ask for in prayer, you will receive if you trust in it." Salome James | ||
Anthea |
I would say that due to Jmmanuel possessing the necessary knowledge about the power of Creation and his own spirit this is precisely what he had done. My earlier reference to the Celestial Sons were not clear. Besides his advanced spiritual evolution and being fathered by Gabriel (a Celestial Son) Jmmanuel was taught by them also. (1996E TJ Chapter 4) I did not mean to simply refer exclusively to the technology of the Celestial Sons but inferred to their spiritual knowledge about Creation. | ||
Andrew C. Cossette |
Hello Forum, Please remind ourselves that this is a specific study group area for Chapter 16 of the Talmud Jmmanuel. For those wishing to discuss "Sai Baba," (who is not mentioned in the Talmud), they should do so in another area. This topic was created for serious discussions on this book only. Thanks, Andrew | ||
Michael Horn |
Dear Andrew, Your point is appreciated, however in discussing the feeding of the 5,000 we are attempting to understand how this was done. This assumes that what we read in the Talmud is accurate and also without explanation, so it is up to us to figure it out, if we can, or get a credible explanation from Billy/FIGU/Plejarans. Therefore, it is not my intention to insert another personality into the discussion but only to point out that there is some evidence for similar manifestation abilities on record. The purpose was to actually demystify the event, although the demonstration of such abilities by another person, if they are indeed real, may only add to the mystery. Also, I do not know for sure that ALL other persons who demonstrate an unusual ability are frauds, maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't know if and where in the Talmud the statement (paraphrased), "These things and greater shall you do," is contained but, along with the passages regarding moving of mountains and withering of trees, these seem to indicate that we have within us these abilities and more. I am comfortable with the idea that the realization of such lies far in the future when we are at the necessary stage of development to handle and appreciate them. At such a time, I expect that we would be using them more wisely than if we had access to them now. Moderator: Hi Michael, yes I understand, but there was a string of messages coming in (the queue) regarding this 'Baba' man. I had to stop the domino effect from taking over in this particular topic area. It was our intention to make this exclusively for study of the book itself. One message (that you did not see) referred to this man in a terrible way and could have started a landslide of trouble for the person posting the message. Therefore, it was decided to get rid of all references and stick with the subject at hand, namely, Chapter 16. Many things happen behind the scenes here, and all of the viewers never get to know the whole story. I hope you understand. Regards, Andrew | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Regarding James Mizar's earlier post, the business about the fig tree being commanded to wither up and die is in Matthew, but is not in the TJ. Jmmanuel had no reason to cause a tree to wither up, but was just using this as an example of what knowledgeable spiritual power was capable of doing. The writer of Matthew recalled having read in the TJ (TJ 21:11, 1996E) about this example of spiritual power, and so rewrote it into an actual event in Matthew 21:21, to show that "Jesus" actually had that power. Comparison of the TJ with Matthew indicates that that writer also made up a few other miracles. | ||
Michael Horn |
Dear Andrew, Got it, no problem and...thanks. Michael | ||
James Roy Mizar |
Thank you jim for correcting my post. Salome James | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Going back to the post of Michael Horn, and reply by the moderator, I would say that his topic on Sai Baba is definitely very relevant if he can manifest things to eat out of apparently nothing. This he has been found by witnesses and some investigators to do; in particular, amrith (a sweet substance) and various eatables. The same spiritual process could well be involved here as what Jmmanuel used in the Feeding of the Five Thousand. However, as the moderator noted, this is not the forum to discuss whether Sai Baba could actually do this or not, or whether his level of spiritual evolution comes at all close to that of Jmmanuel. Since in either case we must admit not knowing how replication or manifestation of food is done in any logical sense that we could understand, it seems fruitless to me to pursue the "how" of it further. (Just my opinion.) | ||
Anthony Alagna |
Hello, I think that the "Walking On the Sea" example of utilization of spiritual powers is different from the "Feeding of the Five Thousand" example. When Peter steps out of the boat onto the water, he has the faith in himself (from his own studies of Creation and learning from Jmmanuel) that he can really do it. And no doubt, he walks for a little while using his own mastery of his spiritual capabilities. Jmmanuel only suggests to him that he can do it. So it seems to me that the effects of spiritual powers are an individual achievement and not created by an outside force. I think we see the same example in 8:29-37, where we have Gabriel beaming(?:) down to deal with a couple of possessed people. The evil spirits possessing the two innocent(?) people cried out to Gabriel to drive themselves out of these people and into a herd of swine. But Gabriel speaks up, instilling confidence, and says, "So go there." So in my mind, these two evil spirits abandoned their hosts on their own accord. Maybe Gabriel's higher evolution and strong presence of consciousness only served to amplify the conditions for these evil spirits to do something on their own? The same thing could be said about Jmmanuel's spiritual presence on Peter. However, It seems to me that the five thousand people at the "feeding" got a handout -- courtesy of Jmmanuel's spiritual ability, through some "secret words", to help him multiply some food for a bunch of starving people. Personally, I think that the "Feeding" story displays Jmmanuel's far stretching capabilities and depth of interaction with the extraterrestrials; and not the same message of doing things for yourself, we see in TJ 8 and 16:20-26. Regards, Anthony | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Anthony A., In that passage of TJ 8:29-37, Gabriel is only mentioned once, and that in the context of Jmmanuel being Gabriel's son. Gabriel wasn't involved there, and there was no beaming down. In the walking on water episode of TJ 16:30ff, it seems to me, also, that Jmmanuel's words spoken to Peter enabled Peter to make full use of his own spiritual power, for a brief while. | ||
Anthony Alagna |
Hello Jim, Thanks for setting me straight on Chapter 8:29-37. You must be thinking that I'm trying to discuss a book I haven't read; sometimes it makes me wonder myself when I make such blatant mistakes. But the whole point of my above post was to address the differences in meaning between the verses relating to the utilization of spiritual power. Personally, I think the requirements needed to accomplish these individual feats differ in their intent and magnitude. Just for the fun of it, let's try to theorize how one might go about actually walking on water or to multiply food for 5000 people. I'm going to take walking on water, the easier feat in my opinion. If I had to guess how this might be done, I would say that this could be achieved with a Creational mindset focused on the necessary thought 'program' that would use consciousness to address the extra-dimensional nature of the spirit to change one's physical make-up. Maybe something like, phasing your molecules to vibrate at a frequency where water is solid enough for a human to walk on it. Just an idea, but maybe a way for us to explore the reality of human spiritual powers. Even though I'm amazed with the power of the spirit and still looking for a clue myself, I kinda look at the TJ as a blueprint for ways to refining one's thinking about Creation, and the capabilities of a human engaged in spiritual development. What I see in this book is that with hard work and a mindset observing Creation, anyone can learn how to walk on water, heal themselves, or otherwise develop their individual spiritual capabilities. Just maybe the TJ is not so much a book for us to concern ourselves necessarily with the "who" and "where," but maybe more of the "how to get there?" Best regards, Anthony | ||
Andrew C. Cossette |
Hi Anthony, Jim, and all, You bring up good points above. But, instead of making the water solid, what about human levitation? Regards, Andrew | ||
Michael Horn |
Dear Andrew, I read the comment to mean just that, i.e. "phasing your molecules to vibrate at a frequency where water is solid enough..." suggests the change is in the molecular makeup of the person not the water. Perhaps this would be similar to what the elves are reputed to do by phasing themselves into this dimension rather than changing our world (a bigger job) to their vibrations. | ||
Anthony Alagna |
Hi Andrew, Maybe I'm not clear. I'm talking about changing the person's frequency, not the water. I would think that perhaps raising one's frequency might make a person 'lighter', therefore the water more dense. This might be defined as levitation, eh? But who is to say that a person (spirit) can't also use their consciousness to change the vibration of water? Regards, Anthony | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Anthony, I've read plenty of accounts of where ETs were witnessed to be gliding along a little bit above the ground while making walking movements. If this was possible due to their spiritual power, then Jmmanuel's and Peter's walking "on" water may have been of the very same nature -- a spiritually induced levitation combined with walking movements of the legs. The additional forward motion would be spiritually induced also. So this builds on Andrew's suggestion, though it doesn't get us any closer to the "how" of it. According to TJ 16:16:36-38 (1996E), being completely confident that you can do it, and so not afraid you can't, is the key. (However verse 37's mention that the water "shall carry you" does not, literally, support the levitation suggestion.) But this means believing that gravity will stop working on you, or that water can become solid -- things you've learned since childhood aren't so. Thus the difficulty in doing it. | ||
Jean Pierre Lagasse |
Hi all, I'd suspect that "complete confidence etc." wouldn't necessarily be enough (to walk on water), if one has been living (or "existing") materially (as we, or at least most of us do). Is "firewalking" similar to the presently discussed "real visions" or is this something different again? Regards, JPLagasse | ||
Anthony Alagna |
Hello, What I'm trying to suggest here is that there could be many degrees of levitation. Depending upon the amount of change a person could apply, they could shift themselves just a little, as to the level where water is as dense as the ground, or turn up the process to completely defy gravity, and float above the water. In other words, water exists in all dimensions(?), but its density to our physical perception is that of it being a liquid. If a person speeds up or slows down their particles, they might experience a full range of physical perceptions of water, such as it being as solid as rock to as thin as air. The way I'm trying to understand it is, that a change in the speed of a person's particles would shift their physical perception of all the objects in their proximity; therefore when Peter made his small shift to be 'light' enough to where water became more solid from his 'new' reference, he was partially in another dimension from the other people on the boat. This is why I think the disciples thought Jmmanuel was a "ghost" when they saw him walking on the water; Jmmanuel might have looked somewhat translucent, perhaps in some sort of glowing field. Speaking of UFO cases, discs have been witnessed flying right into the ocean water, without creating so much as a single wave or ripple. Think there might be some sort of connection? Remember, this is just my best logical guess; and I would love to hear anybody else's ideas. The way I see it, any bit of thinking you do to understand something gets you a little further ahead in understanding, even if it seems like nothing at first. Best regards, Anthony | ||
Jani Metso and Janette Poikajärvi |
Hello, Jean Pierre Lagasse(9/28/): About firewalking. My understanding is that firewalking (walking on coals) has nothing to do with psychic or spiritual powers. What I've noticed - anybody can do that. This is just my opinion. Best regards, Jani | ||
Jim Deardorff |
In TJ 15:1 (either edition) Reads, "That same day Jmmanuel went out and walked to the sea, where he sat down." Then he started speaking parables to the people around him. My question is: Was this at the shore of the Sea of Galilee or the Dead Sea? The TJ's previous chapter seems to place Jmmanuel and his disciples in Bethlehem, which is south of Jerusalem. Being some 8 or 10 miles from the Dead Sea, it is possible they walked from Bethlehem to the Dead Sea, and then Jmmanuel spoke the parables to them that very same day. However, one doesn't suppose that there were very many people around the lifeless Dead Sea for Jmmanuel to have spoken his parables to. And would people from Bethlehem have walked all the way from their city to hear him speak at the Dead Sea location when he could have spoken to them right there in Bethlehem? After the parables were spoken, TJ 15:66-67 mentions that Jmmanuel left from there and went to Nazareth. This doesn't say anything about how far away Nazareth was from the location where he spoke the parables, or how long it took him to walk from there to Nazareth. But the other possibility is that he spoke the parables at the Sea of Galilee, where it seems much more likely that people would have been around to hear him, and a boat would have been available for him to step into (TJ 15:2). However, it is some 80 miles as the crow flies from Bethlehem, and a several days' journey. So he could not have gone there in one day after all. My guess is that Judas, writing years after the fact, could not recall all the places and timings correctly, and that the parables had been spoken at the Sea of Galilee, but not on the same day they had been in Bethlehem. What do you think? | ||
James Roy Mizar |
Great conversation!!! I think it has to do with fine matter and how it is manipulated through our connection to creation; the spirtual matter through psi powers, so material objects can be moved and sence the body is a material object it can also be moved along with the spirit..kinda like the smaller humans who move dimensionally through Creation, Truth, Knowledge and the belief in it. Salome James | ||
Ardie Fox |
I have heard that coals are not a good conductor of heat. (I hope I said that right) It is similar to aluminum foil. Foil can sit in a hot oven for hours and you can still touch it. That doesn't mean that I would walk across a pile of red hot looking coals! Ardie | ||
Michael Horn |
Regarding firewalking, I've done, kids have done it, anyone can do it (unless they stop in the middle wondering if they can do it.) Ardie's reason seems to be the reason for it. | ||
Phil McAiney |
I think this musing about how to do marvels is not how people are to evolve today. In Jmmanuel's time, people were mostly illiterate. Even the Apostles had only Judas who, besides Jmmanuel, was the only one who could read and write. Matthew was able to write numbers only and maybe some symbols or marks for names as a former tax collector. Therefore, it was not possible for the Israeli people and others living in the area of Palestine to read about the teachings and ponder them as they could not read. A way had to be shown to demonstrate the power of the teachings Jmmanuel was giving and this way was the logic of the teachings based on the laws of Nature, and performing "miracles". The word spread like wildfire about this man, naturally. And the rabbis and administrators of Judaism would certainly have been sceptical and threatened by his messages which empowered the people to find their own spirituality and break away from those who were spiritually enslaving them while stealing their land and valuables under the guise of serving God. Since literacy is widely entrenched today, the teachings are not being demonstrated by marvels and physical wonders but are being written down in a painstaking manner that is true to every last word spoken. These writings are the basis of the teachings and are to be read and studied, which means reread, as they are very profound. Our own thinking and pondering about them is what stirs our consciousnesses into realizing new aspects of life and truth. This, in turn, stimulates our unconsciousness and our spirit to develop. | ||
Phil McAiney |
Before any of us get impressed with "tricks" performed by Sai Baba, let me give you an sight into his "wisdom" in an area all of you are familiar with - the life of the man "Jesus". In the book, "The Jesus Mystery" by the American author Janet Bock, she travels to India to hear Sai Baba give various lectures, one of which was about "Jesus", of which she recorded him saying the following: "In the pilgrimmage (of a human being journeying through evolution)...a person is bound to encounter various obstacles and trials. In order to smoothen his path and help him overcome these troubles, sages, seers, realised souls, divine personalities and incarnations of God appear among men and illumine the path. "They are those who long to share their bliss with those beyond the pale. They instruct others that each one is really three in one; the one he believes he is, the one others believe he is, and the one he really is. "Jesus declared, as a Messenger of God, that he was the son of God. 'Jesus' was the name he was known by; he was honoured by the populace as Christ, for they found in his thoughts, deeds and words no trace of ego. "The heads of the monasteries and temples became angered by him and tempted one of the disciples of Jesus with 30 pieces of silver to betray him into their hands. "The Roman rulers were told that Jesus was attempting to assert himself as King and so could be punished for treason. Their insistence made the Governor order his crucifixion. "The name 'Jesus' itself is not the original one. He was named 'Isa', which with the letters reversed is 'Sai'. Isa or Sai both mean 'God'. (Is Sai Baba hinting here he is the reincarnation of Jesus? - pm) "The Jesus Mystery" Janet Bock - published by Aura Books, Los Angeles 1980 Chapter 17, pp. 188-191 To those of us familiar with the story of Jmmanuel, we can readily see the holes in Sai Baba's teachings in this one area. His version is simply a flowery continuation of the teachings of religion and are inaccurate, untruthful and wrong in every respect. He doesn't even mention the correct name "Jmmanuel" or that Pontius Pilate did not order the crucifixion but handed Jammanuel over to the Chief Rabbis to punish Jmmanuel as they saw fit. The other errors in Sai Baba's lecture I will leave to your own knowledge and detective work and trust you will be able to spot them without too much trouble. So much for the "truth" coming from this carnival man. "37. Because many a false Jmmanuel and many deceivers and false prophets will rise and do great signs and miracles, it will be possible to lead astray not only those who seek, believe and err, but also the scholars and knowledgeable people." "Talmud of Jmmanuel" (1996) Ch. 25: 37 (p. 191) "29. Therefore, beware of the false and adulterated teachings of the future which will insult me by callng me the Son of Creation and also the Son of God." Ibid. Ch. 21: 29 "32. Beware of these false and adulterated teachings of the future because a trinity is impossible according to the logical laws of Creation." Ibid. Ch. 21: 32 | ||
Anthony Alagna |
Hello Phil, You bring up some natural points about the need to display 'miracles' 2000 years ago for people who could not read. However, I disagree with you when you say above, "...how to do marvels is not how people are to evolve today." I recall from video tape lectures that I've seen on the Meier case, Billy shifted a large silver coin and bent it in his own hands, as well as moving a very heavy stove all by himself -- all using his own spiritual powers. I agree with you that performing 'miracles' is not as necessary today in Billy's efforts toward the Mission. However, the whole point to spiritual evolution is to expand one's own spiritual awareness, to grow in consciousness; and I think this includes exploring one's own spiritual capabilities/powers today, as well as in any lifetime. In my eyes, all the prophets up to Mr. Meier have been around to set examples for people to learn from. But people should not be submissive or dependant upon their teachers, rather they should be striving to excel beyond the spiritually great. Maybe a person will never attain high spiritual evolution in their life to surpass their examples, but at least they were pointed in that direction. A journey of growth that will take many lifetimes...and today looks as good a day as any to start. Best regards, Anthony | ||
Louis Mukiraine |
Regarding Anthony's earlier posting dated Tuesday, September 26, 2000, do "evil spirits" exist and what mention is made of them in the TJ? What is their purpose and from where did they originate? | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Hi Louis, Yes, they exist, and Jmmanuel cast a lot of them out of people. But nowadays I think we'd just call them "ignorant spirits" (ignorance = evil?), because indications are they are just spirits that didn't know enough to "go to the light" after death, but instead latched onto the spirit of someone around them at that time, quite often someone they knew. | ||
Savio |
Hi Jim Is there any reason that the "ignorant spirits" always behave badly instead of at least 50% towards behaving nicely or somewhat without direction? While Gabriel was highly evolved, why drove "ignorant spirits" into a herd of swine instead of pointing them "go to the light"? Thanks in advance  Savio | ||
Jani Metso and Janette Poikajärvi |
Hello, I think spirit can never be ignorant that way - how could it be so that spirits can't in some cases find the way to the other side? Could it be that those so-called "evil spirits" are actually self generated in some way, ie. inside the mind of the "possessed" person due to wrong thinking processes etc.? But then again, how could these self generated states be driven out from the person - unless they're not only states but self created beings? | ||
Andrew C. Cossette |
Hello all, Jim, you might find this interesting. According to the teachings, there is no way that one spirit form can inhabit the material body of another. The rule is; one brain, one spirit (form). "Possession," as it is called, cannot exist. Therefore, I think Jmmanuel was actually 'casting out' their own schizophrenia and/or dementia. I also feel that maybe this was the way that Jmmanuel was communicating to the people of his time (i.e. mentioning so-called "evil spirits," since the level of evolution at that time [i.e. stage 2, levels 3,4,5] was that of extreme superstition, etc.), but, this is just my own opinion based on the above-mentioned teachings. Another point of interest here is that a spirit form cannot, without doubt, be "evil." It is impossible. A spirit form existing in/on the Other Side, is in a state of neutral existing in existence and being. "It," has no good or bad, just existence in the connection to Creation, not to mention that "It" lacks a consciousness to decide on being good or evil. According to the teachings, all so-called possession is, in actuality, the individual him/her self suffering from a diseased consciousness and/or self-creating entities (inside of themselves) on their own, whether consciously or unconsciously. In my opinion, this brings new light to the words of Jmmanuel in this regard. Kind regards, Andrew | ||
Norm |
"According to the teachings, all so-called possession is, in actuality, the individual him/her self suffering from a diseased consciousness and/or self-creating entities (inside of themselves) on their own, whether consciously or unconsciously." Andrew, is this the same case with Channels and Mediums? That think they are in communication with Ets, Spirits, Demons Etc.? | ||
Andrew C. Cossette |
Hi Norm, Yes, in 99.97% of all cases. In the remaining, they are tapping into the Akashic Records, which is not a big deal anyway. Now, we should get back to Chapter 16 Regards, Andrew | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Hi Savio, and Jani & Janette, My understanding is that before one's spirit "goes to the light," it is still guided largely by the knowledge and personality of its just-departed life. So if its spiritual knowledge is small or lacking, its behavior as a spirit that failed to pass into the true afterlife would reflect this ignorance, thus leading sometimes to the attached spirit causing harm to the health and well being of its host. And, Savio, it was Jmmanuel, not Gabriel, who drove the possessing spirits from the two possessed persons into the swine, causing them all to rush into the water and drown. Why did he do it? From TJ 8:32 one sees that these possessing spirits asked Jmmanuel to do just that. So the question is, why did he not tell them that that would not be good, to cause the pigs to drown, and instead drive them "into the light"? I don't know. Perhaps he felt that was the only way these particular evil spirits could be exorcised, due to their great number, so he let them have their wish. Or perhaps he didn't foresee the consequences (drowning) of letting them go into the swine. But these are speculations! | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Hi Andrew, I've lost track of which part of "the teachings" this came from -- that possessing spirits of departed persons don't actually exist, but are instead symptoms of a diseased consciousness. I mean, did Billy Meier hear it from Semjase, or Ptaah, or from one of his high-level channel sources? As you know, I believe that Meier was sometimes fed misinformation from his contactors, this for the purpose of passing it on in his Contact Reports and elsewhere so that readers could find things to disagree with, and therefore not simply accept it all on faith, without thinking for themselves. So I tend to place this teaching on possessing spirits in that category. I feel it was of higher importance for the Pleiadians/Plejarens to prevent us from blindly accepting everything they told Billy, thus turning it into a faith or religion, than to speak only truths, without purposely feeding in occasional falsehoods or misleading statements. Thus, I differ with FIGU members on this issue. However, I don't think that Jmmanuel was under any such obligation to do this in his teachings. His way of trying to get people to think for themselves was to speak sometimes in parables. | ||
Scott Baxter |
Hello Jim There is some information regarding the creation of entites by a person in the English Phamphlet put out by the FIGU, entitled "An important word concerning the occult forces and meditation". This little book goes into how a person may create an alter ego, and through time this ego may gain such a hold on the person that, it can lead to his own demise. I guess in a certain sense it could be looked upon as a form of possession. Whether this is what was being presented in the Talmud Im not sure. If in those times superstition was the lot of many, it stands to reason that it is possible for people to be led astray to the point in false teachings that they could start to believe in all sorts of strange things which could lead to the creation of these alter egos, or a diseased forms of thinking. Possibly Jmmanual was able to heal a diseased Pschye as well as a diseased body. You mentioned that the contact notes had instances of misinformation to cause people to think or ponder things for themselves. I understand the use of parables as used by Jmmanual for the passing on of wisdom by forcing a person to think about a given story. Do you find this the same thing as you indicated in the contact notes? I thought one of the things in this overall mission was to clear up a lot of misunderstandings and false teachings and to create a more clearer understanding of what is true or not true. I feel this is important especially during these times when the need for truth and clear sight is needed. Salome Scott B. | ||
Louis Mukiraine |
Thanks for clearing that up Andrew, and Jim for your initial response, since my next question would have been how can two spirits, the evil one to be cast out and the spirit that belongs with the body, both inhabit the same body at the same time. But I have another instead. Andrew, you stated in your posting that, and I quote; "A spirit form existing in/on the Other Side, is in a state of neutral existing in existence and being. "It," has no good or bad, just existence in the connection to Creation, not to mention that "It" lacks a consciousness to decide on being good or evil" If spirit forms are unable to distinguish between good and evil, how is a spirit form on the Other Side able to recognise it's mistakes in the previous life and determine what kind of life will be necessary as a result in the next, while it awaits reincarnation? Or am I perhaps confusing the spirit with the conciousness? | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Louis, I think that what Andrew wrote, in stating: "'It' lacks a consciousness to decide on being good or evil" does not mean that one's spirit, or "It", does not usually *recognize* good from evil. Thus, one's consciousness is free to decide whether to follow the good course of action or the evil. In the latter case, it may be ignoring signals from the spirit or from one's conscience as to which is the right course of action. | ||
Michael Uyttebroek |
Dear Norm and interested readers... With regards to truth pertaining to the channeling of the dead or other entities and the use of occult forces, I would like to refer you to the booklet put out by FIGU entitled: "An important word concerning the occult forces and meditation". There it is made clear that the channeler is not in contact with the spirit of a deceased person, but in fact he accesses the Akashic Records via a self-created entity which controls and misleads him. Salome, Michael Uyttebroek | ||
Norm |
Michael,
It is sort of like and that Scifi movie the Forbidden Planet, Where the scientist creates a monster in his mind/dreams, that comes alive and attacks people. | ||
Jim Deardorff |
I have a question on TJ 11:28, which reads, "Yes, it has been good of Creation, and of god and his celestial sons as well, that they have thwarted until now the misuse of power among the human races." What is the meaning of this? There were a lot of wars of violence before and up to Jmmanuel's time, considering the conquering armies of Alexander the Great, the Romans, and much else. Wasn't some of this the misuse of power? I have wondered if it means that the really bad modern wars, wherein large segments of civilian populations can be bombed or gassed or infected with biological agents, were thwarted from occurring much earlier by the Pl's or other ETs. Could they have seen to it that the Renaisance and industrial revolution would be postponed for many centuries, thus giving mankind more time to evolve spiritually before having all the means of modern warfare at their disposal? If in our own century the Pl's could place ideas in scientists' heads that, if acted upon, would speed up our rate of scientific advancement, could they not have done the opposite, so to speak, in earlier centuries? This seems like a rather far-fetched possibility, so I'm wondering if any of you see a more plausible explanation. | ||
Jean Pierre Lagasse |
Hi Jim, Given that TJ 11:27 speaks of the “… power of the spirit…” and the Title just before this is “PRAISE OF THE SPIRIT AND KNOWLEDGE”, that TJ 11:28 also speaks of this same “spiritual power”? Wars and physical abuse (from one person to another) do not necessarily speak of using the “powers of the spirit”…? Being “…unwise and imprudent…” tends to “protect us” from knowledge & power we are not ready for. This seems to be by Creation’s design. (TJ 11:27) Kind Regards, JPLagasse | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Thanks, Jean Pierre. That sounds right in retrospect. I should have carried over "power of the spirit" in TJ 11:27 to the "power" in the next verse. This would then be related to TJ 18:24, where J warns Peter about opening false locks and portals if he were given the key to the spiritual kingdom. Can you think of some examples of misuse of spiritual power? I don't think that false teachings would come under that description. | ||
Michael Uyttebroek |
Hi Ardie and all... As clearly expressed in FIGU Bulletin no.2, there are 2 forms of (male) homosexuality... the natural form is called natural-anti-nature homosexuality and is considered natural because the homosexuality is the result of a genetically induced factors and yet it is considered anti-nature because no procreation can occur. The other form of homosexuality is a degenerating form which is the result of degenerating thoughts. In the TJ chapter 12 line 6 6."And if two men bed down with each other, they should also be punished, because the fallible are unworthy of life and its laws and behave heretically; thus they should be castrated or sterilized." After having re-read bulletin no.2 I've concluded that the male homosexuality that the TJ is referring to is the degenerating form. The FIGU Bulletin no. 2 describes this form as follows: "Degenerate tendencies of emotions and self-created anti-natural desires in a perverse form, as well as an individual's own homophile egoism, are interpreted as the creation of a pseudo-homosexuality that is brought about by the person's own thoughts and fantasies that transgress against nature's laws and directives and consequently become a degeneration. This form of homosexuality does not show any link to the natural-anti-nature, hence gene-produced , homosexuality. The degenerate homosexuality, hence pseudo-homosexuality that is self-produced through one's own thoughts and fantasies is, as a rule, coupled with other pseudo-, self-produced sexual abnormalities and transgressions against nature, such as sodomy, masochism and sadism, to mention a few." It naturally follows that animals would not have this form of homosexuality hence the following line from the TJ chapter 12 line 9: "Truly, I say to you: There are no animals under the sky that are like people and would go against the laws of Creation and nature; but are you not much more than the animals?" Furthermore, in FIGU Bulletin no.2 it clearly states that in the TJ, chapter 12, lines 6 and 8... homosexual men become culpable when they have intercourse (one man with another man) in a manner that makes them capable of giving birth (such as through genetic manipulation, etc.), in a anti-natural and wanton way and have sexual relationships in order to procreate children. As far as the explanation about the spread of Aids in Stimme der Wassermannzeit Nr.5 Feb. 1989 (English version) , this is simply meant to be an explanation of how Aids got transmitted over to the human species ...a relaying of information... Salome, Michael Uyttebroek | ||
Savio |
Hello With reference to 1996 TJ 11:2 regarding John's question... 3. "Are you the one to come, the king of wisdom, as foretold by the prohets, or should we wait for another?" I think John should have known who Jmmanuel was because the name "Jmmanuel" was foretold by the prophets which John proved to be well awared of by his own words. Secondly, according to what John said to Jmmanuel when he baptized Jmmanuel: "I certainly need to be baptized by you, because you possess greater knowledge than I, and you come t me?" Is there any reason that John asked the question being knew who Jmmaneul was? Regards Savio | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Savio, I have wondered the same myself. It must be that John wasn't absolutely certain, even when he met Jmmanuel at the baptism, that Jmmanuel was the prophesied one. It doesn't say in TJ 3:27 or thereabouts that John was for sure aware that Jmmanuel was the one prophesied by Isaiah. Could John have known that Jmmanuel had greater knowledge than he without knowing this? Jmmanuel may have been around Galilee for some time, after having returned from India, and gained a reputation of being knowledgeable, which John learned of. But since Jmmanuel had not yet, as of that time, made the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers be cleansed, etc., as prophesied in Isaiah 35:5-6, John may not have been certain until he heard that Jmmanuel could and did perform healings. To me this seems a bit more plausible than the only other alternative I can think of. Namely, that by the time of TJ 11:2 John had forgotten what he knew of Jmmanuel a few months earlier. Regards, Jim | ||
Savio |
Hi Jim Thanks for the response Yes, your solution is logical - when John baptized Jmmanuel, those healing acts as prophesied were not performed yet. A third alternative comes to mind... Perhaps John and Jmmanuel should have known each other the first time they met. The first environment confirmation was the UFO event right after the baptism which was stunning; secondly,in Chapter 11 Jmmanuel commented John was "more than a prophet" "he is Elisha who will come again in his future life".... all these words proved Jmmanuel knew John down to the very details. As they were both great prophets, it would be very possible that John knew who Jmmanuel was as well. The reason that John sent his disciples to Jmmanuel perhaps was for the transferring of disciples. It may be the case - being more than a prophet, John knew his days was coming to an end, he wanted his disciples to follow an even greater master before he was murdered. However, as John was so famous then, it would be difficult to ask his disciples to follow a stranger with a bit different in teachings - Jmmanuel. That is why John sent his disciples to see for themselves. Perhaps that is why Jmmanuel said "And, blessed are those who do not take offense at my teaching". Any comments? Regards Savio | ||
Jim Deardorff |
Hi Savio, I also suspect that Jmmanuel may already have met John before their meeting at the Jordan River. But I'm not at all sure. They evidently both knew of each other before the baptism. Jmmanuel had already acquired all twelve of his disciples a while earlier -- see TJ 10:1. The last few he needed he apparently acquired as in TJ 9:45-47. So he didn't acquire John's, too, among the twelve, I mean. But perhaps some of them became additional disciples, who knows? One might think that Jmmanuel had no need to tell John's disciples, "Blessed are those who do not take offense at my teaching(s)." So maybe this does indicate that John's teachings to his disciples were a bit different than Jmmanuel's to his. And since Jmmanuel isn't on record as having said that on other occasions, that may mean he knew others, like the Pharisees and scribes, were too far gone to be at all approving of such a statement. | ||
Savio |
Hi Jim I did not aware that Jmmanuel had acquired all 12 disciples. Perhaps I should suggest that John might want to ask his disciples to follow Jmmanuel Anyway, perhaps we can never sure of the real reason behind. Thank you for your kind analysis. Regards Savio | ||
Michael Horn |
Hi Michael, Regarding your information above from the TJ, "Furthermore, in FIGU Bulletin no.2 it clearly states that in the TJ, chapter 12, lines 6 and 8... homosexual men become culpable when they have intercourse (one man with another man) in a manner that makes them capable of giving birth (such as through genetic manipulation, etc.), in a anti-natural and wanton way and have sexual relationships in order to procreate children." I find the following article very interesting as it seems to confirm that it will soon be (perhaps once again?) possible for two males to produce a baby: http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/12/31/stifgnfar01003.html December 31 2000 FAR EAST Clone scientists can grow sperm in laboratory Cherry Norton and Lois Rogers SCIENTISTS have succeeded in growing sperm in a laboratory for the first time, paving the way for infertile men to produce their own genetic offspring. The team, from the Machida district of Tokyo, also believe they will be able to reprogramme male cells into producing eggs so that men can both father and "mother" children. This could allow gay men to be parents together. At the moment the technique, which clones embryo cells and turns them into sperm, has been attempted only with mice. But the researchers plan to test the techniques on adult men. Although cloning humans is banned under Japanese law, the new technique gets round the restriction because it uses cloning to produce the seed for a new baby rather than the baby itself. The development has been condemned by medical ethics groups as a further step in the "brutalisation" of modern science. They believe it risks turning human life into a commodity with no limits on the experimental techniques for which it can be used. The new technique was disclosed at a recent biologists' conference in Japan and will be unveiled to the international scientific community in a publication next year. Poshiaki Nose, of the Mitsubishi Kasei Institute, described last week how he had worked out which of the cells in early embryos were destined to grow into the baby's germ cells - sperm or eggs. In the early days after fertilisation, the embryo is a mass of so-called stem cells, each programmed to develop into a different part of the body. Nose's technique involves using genetic markers to work out which cells have the genes involved in sperm manufacture "switched on". He has grown these cells into sperm in the laboratory before they are implanted back into the testes. They appear genetically normal. "We have no reason to doubt that these sperm are viable," Nose said. "The stem cell-derived sperm are exactly the same as those produced by the testes and we are now seeing if we can make them fertilise normal eggs." Other researchers noted that the Japanese team had yet to produce a healthy baby, but few doubt they will be successful. |
